Because of an offline discussion about the 1000 odd death threats I got directly through the Wikimedia Foundation email system and my failure to remember personally contacting them (as opposed to admins) about it, I decided to see if the Harassment article mentioned that option.
I did a little research and found it was not til July 22, 2015 that the harassment article section on "threats" provided a link to the WP:Essay that specifically advises this!
https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Wikipedia:Harassment&diff=672...
Now why can't the threats section include that info? Certain some well-connected editors have learned how to work that angle with the foundation for even minor issues...
There's a huge section on what to do about threats of legal action, but zilch on death threats. Pretty absurd... Safe space, NOT!!*
Thanks...
CM
*Of course, there's a difference between legitimate safe space from actual direct insults or threats of harm and the absurd degree of hypersensitivity now a days where there are trigger warnings on any opinion that someone might disagree with and protests against opinions that just aren't politically correct enough... but don't get me started...
A lot of articles about it lately have exposed the absurdities and hypocrisy of some individuals and groups. And I can understand the fear of some male wikipedians they will be exposed to the most extreme varieties. It also gives the most oppressive guys an excuse to label minor and legitimate demands for safe space as "extremist." ("You extremist, you want to mention contacting the Foundation on the Harassment page!!!")
Glad I'm not in college! Or any "progressive" political groups any more. Especially now that I am finally free of having to be a "good girl" on Wikipedia and can engage in anti-establishment mockery and sarcasm in my writings/artistic endeavors without worrying about wikistalkers slamming me all over Wikipedia ;-)
@Carol Moore, I believe that link is about suicide threats. Did you mean to link to something else?
On Thu, Sep 24, 2015 at 2:57 PM, Carol Moore dc carolmooredc@verizon.net wrote:
Because of an offline discussion about the 1000 odd death threats I got directly through the Wikimedia Foundation email system and my failure to remember personally contacting them (as opposed to admins) about it, I decided to see if the Harassment article mentioned that option.
I did a little research and found it was not til July 22, 2015 that the harassment article section on "threats" provided a link to the WP:Essay that specifically advises this!
https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Wikipedia:Harassment&diff=672...
Now why can't the threats section include that info? Certain some well-connected editors have learned how to work that angle with the foundation for even minor issues...
There's a huge section on what to do about threats of legal action, but zilch on death threats. Pretty absurd... Safe space, NOT!!*
Thanks...
CM
*Of course, there's a difference between legitimate safe space from actual direct insults or threats of harm and the absurd degree of hypersensitivity now a days where there are trigger warnings on any opinion that someone might disagree with and protests against opinions that just aren't politically correct enough... but don't get me started...
A lot of articles about it lately have exposed the absurdities and hypocrisy of some individuals and groups. And I can understand the fear of some male wikipedians they will be exposed to the most extreme varieties. It also gives the most oppressive guys an excuse to label minor and legitimate demands for safe space as "extremist." ("You extremist, you want to mention contacting the Foundation on the Harassment page!!!")
Glad I'm not in college! Or any "progressive" political groups any more. Especially now that I am finally free of having to be a "good girl" on Wikipedia and can engage in anti-establishment mockery and sarcasm in my writings/artistic endeavors without worrying about wikistalkers slamming me all over Wikipedia ;-)
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Neotarf is correct, it is the guideline to address suicide threats and similar threats of serious harm to self or others (e.g., "I'm going to go shoot up my school") - in other words, that guideline is intended to capture situations where there is a reason to contact police or similar authorities because of an imminent threat to safety. The person adding the link probably did not really read through the point of the page. Speaking personally, I'd be pretty offended if I complained that someone was harassing me and was linked to a page about reporting suicide threats. Note that one of the shortcuts is [[WP:SUICIDE]].
I have removed that as a "Main article" because it's not really about harassment.
Risker/Anne
On 26 September 2015 at 11:52, Neotarf neotarf@gmail.com wrote:
@Carol Moore, I believe that link is about suicide threats. Did you mean to link to something else?
On Thu, Sep 24, 2015 at 2:57 PM, Carol Moore dc carolmooredc@verizon.net wrote:
Because of an offline discussion about the 1000 odd death threats I got directly through the Wikimedia Foundation email system and my failure to remember personally contacting them (as opposed to admins) about it, I decided to see if the Harassment article mentioned that option.
I did a little research and found it was not til July 22, 2015 that the harassment article section on "threats" provided a link to the WP:Essay that specifically advises this!
https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Wikipedia:Harassment&diff=672...
Now why can't the threats section include that info? Certain some well-connected editors have learned how to work that angle with the foundation for even minor issues...
There's a huge section on what to do about threats of legal action, but zilch on death threats. Pretty absurd... Safe space, NOT!!*
Thanks...
CM
*Of course, there's a difference between legitimate safe space from actual direct insults or threats of harm and the absurd degree of hypersensitivity now a days where there are trigger warnings on any opinion that someone might disagree with and protests against opinions that just aren't politically correct enough... but don't get me started...
A lot of articles about it lately have exposed the absurdities and hypocrisy of some individuals and groups. And I can understand the fear of some male wikipedians they will be exposed to the most extreme varieties. It also gives the most oppressive guys an excuse to label minor and legitimate demands for safe space as "extremist." ("You extremist, you want to mention contacting the Foundation on the Harassment page!!!")
Glad I'm not in college! Or any "progressive" political groups any more. Especially now that I am finally free of having to be a "good girl" on Wikipedia and can engage in anti-establishment mockery and sarcasm in my writings/artistic endeavors without worrying about wikistalkers slamming me all over Wikipedia ;-)
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I was referring to threats to kill someone that clearly come from a known Wikipedia handle or editor, or, as in my case, a person who is known because it's the same kind of message they have been known to send to various others many times before.
In my case threats were sent through Wikimedia Foundation email and evidently that's what this person - and perhaps others - enjoys doing. At the very least advice to contact the Foundation also should cover such abuses. (Obviously if it's an anonymous person through another email system, it's a different issue. Though I believe the Foundation was happy to help Sitush when he was getting those kind of messages.)
As an activist I'm reluctant to deal with authorities unless it is VERY real and imminent. Those who want to report it would assume their only recourse is to go straight to the police who then will be the ones going to the Foundation to sort it out.
That is the specific issue I was addressing and the person who does that evidently is back to doing it, so perhaps others are doing it too and women are just quitting Wikipedia without telling anyone why.
I wrote:
On 9/26/2015 12:27 PM, Risker wrote:
Neotarf is correct, it is the guideline to address suicide threats and similar threats of serious harm to self or others (e.g., "I'm going to go shoot up my school") - in other words, that guideline is intended to capture situations where there is a reason to contact police or similar authorities because of an imminent threat to safety. The person adding the link probably did not really read through the point of the page. Speaking personally, I'd be pretty offended if I complained that someone was harassing me and was linked to a page about reporting suicide threats. Note that one of the shortcuts is [[WP:SUICIDE]].
I have removed that as a "Main article" because it's not really about harassment.
Risker/Anne
On 26 September 2015 at 11:52, Neotarf <neotarf@gmail.com mailto:neotarf@gmail.com> wrote:
@Carol Moore, I believe that link is about suicide threats. Did you mean to link to something else? On Thu, Sep 24, 2015 at 2:57 PM, Carol Moore dc <carolmooredc@verizon.net <mailto:carolmooredc@verizon.net>> wrote: Because of an offline discussion about the 1000 odd death threats I got directly through the Wikimedia Foundation email system and my failure to remember personally contacting them (as opposed to admins) about it, I decided to see if the Harassment article mentioned that option. I did a little research and found it was not til July 22, 2015 that the harassment article section on "threats" provided a link to the WP:Essay that specifically advises this! https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Wikipedia:Harassment&diff=672630056&oldid=672391122 Now why can't the threats section include that info? Certain some well-connected editors have learned how to work that angle with the foundation for even minor issues... There's a huge section on what to do about threats of legal action, but zilch on death threats. Pretty absurd... Safe space, NOT!!* Thanks... CM *Of course, there's a difference between legitimate safe space from actual direct insults or threats of harm and the absurd degree of hypersensitivity now a days where there are trigger warnings on any opinion that someone might disagree with and protests against opinions that just aren't politically correct enough... but don't get me started... A lot of articles about it lately have exposed the absurdities and hypocrisy of some individuals and groups. And I can understand the fear of some male wikipedians they will be exposed to the most extreme varieties. It also gives the most oppressive guys an excuse to label minor and legitimate demands for safe space as "extremist." ("You extremist, you want to mention contacting the Foundation on the Harassment page!!!") Glad I'm not in college! Or any "progressive" political groups any more. Especially now that I am finally free of having to be a "good girl" on Wikipedia and can engage in anti-establishment mockery and sarcasm in my writings/artistic endeavors without worrying about wikistalkers slamming me all over Wikipedia ;-) _______________________________________________ Gendergap mailing list Gendergap@lists.wikimedia.org <mailto:Gendergap@lists.wikimedia.org> To manage your subscription preferences, including unsubscribing, please visit: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/gendergap _______________________________________________ Gendergap mailing list Gendergap@lists.wikimedia.org <mailto:Gendergap@lists.wikimedia.org> To manage your subscription preferences, including unsubscribing, please visit: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/gendergap
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The WMF may or may not help editors who are receiving death threats via their email systems - I'd venture to guess that in the majority of cases they're handled by admins or CUs or arbitrators by the expedient of blocking the accounts with email turned off. If you're saying you really don't want police involved, then I don't know what you'd expect the WMF to do over and above blocking the same accounts and the same IPs that can (and often are) blocked by volunteers.
I do not suggest that harassment via email (up to and including serious death threats) is a minor matter, but that the "emergency@wikimedia.org" is for threats of harm to self or others that are published onwiki where there is concern that police or other authorities should be informed because there is an imminent risk of harm. Keep in mind that that email address is staffed by a grand total of six people (the Community Advocacy team) to cover the entire world.
Risker/Anne
On 26 September 2015 at 13:59, Carol Moore dc carolmooredc@verizon.net wrote:
I was referring to threats to kill someone that clearly come from a known Wikipedia handle or editor, or, as in my case, a person who is known because it's the same kind of message they have been known to send to various others many times before.
In my case threats were sent through Wikimedia Foundation email and evidently that's what this person - and perhaps others - enjoys doing. At the very least advice to contact the Foundation also should cover such abuses. (Obviously if it's an anonymous person through another email system, it's a different issue. Though I believe the Foundation was happy to help Sitush when he was getting those kind of messages.)
As an activist I'm reluctant to deal with authorities unless it is VERY real and imminent. Those who want to report it would assume their only recourse is to go straight to the police who then will be the ones going to the Foundation to sort it out.
That is the specific issue I was addressing and the person who does that evidently is back to doing it, so perhaps others are doing it too and women are just quitting Wikipedia without telling anyone why.
I wrote:
On 9/26/2015 12:27 PM, Risker wrote:
Neotarf is correct, it is the guideline to address suicide threats and similar threats of serious harm to self or others (e.g., "I'm going to go shoot up my school") - in other words, that guideline is intended to capture situations where there is a reason to contact police or similar authorities because of an imminent threat to safety. The person adding the link probably did not really read through the point of the page. Speaking personally, I'd be pretty offended if I complained that someone was harassing me and was linked to a page about reporting suicide threats. Note that one of the shortcuts is [[WP:SUICIDE]].
I have removed that as a "Main article" because it's not really about harassment.
Risker/Anne
On 26 September 2015 at 11:52, Neotarf <neotarf@gmail.com mailto:neotarf@gmail.com> wrote:
@Carol Moore, I believe that link is about suicide threats. Did you mean to link to something else? On Thu, Sep 24, 2015 at 2:57 PM, Carol Moore dc <carolmooredc@verizon.net <mailto:carolmooredc@verizon.net>> wrote: Because of an offline discussion about the 1000 odd death threats I got directly through the Wikimedia Foundation email system and my failure to remember personally contacting them (as opposed to admins) about it, I decided to see if the Harassment article mentioned that option. I did a little research and found it was not til July 22, 2015 that the harassment article section on "threats" provided a link to the WP:Essay that specifically advises this!https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Wikipedia:Harassment&diff=672...
Now why can't the threats section include that info? Certain some well-connected editors have learned how to work that angle with the foundation for even minor issues... There's a huge section on what to do about threats of legal action, but zilch on death threats. Pretty absurd... Safe space, NOT!!* Thanks... CM *Of course, there's a difference between legitimate safe space from actual direct insults or threats of harm and the absurd degree of hypersensitivity now a days where there are trigger warnings on any opinion that someone might disagree with and protests against opinions that just aren't politically correct enough... but don't get me started... A lot of articles about it lately have exposed the absurdities and hypocrisy of some individuals and groups. And I can understand the fear of some male wikipedians they will be exposed to the most extreme varieties. It also gives the most oppressive guys an excuse to label minor and legitimate demands for safe space as "extremist." ("You extremist, you want to mention contacting the Foundation on the Harassment page!!!") Glad I'm not in college! Or any "progressive" political groups any more. Especially now that I am finally free of having to be a "good girl" on Wikipedia and can engage in anti-establishment mockery and sarcasm in my writings/artistic endeavors without worrying about wikistalkers slamming me all over Wikipedia ;-) _______________________________________________ Gendergap mailing list Gendergap@lists.wikimedia.org <mailto:Gendergap@lists.wikimedia.org> To manage your subscription preferences, including unsubscribing, please visit: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/gendergap
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risker you are joking? a death threat is a case for the police not for the wikimedia foundation. wikimedia foundation is not a para-military or para-police organization replacing standard legal systems, the wikimedia community is also not a community outside other legal systems, with special rules applying. the police has the means to deal with it professionally.
carol, if you get a death threat, why are you afraid of the police? you pay taxes and at the end of the day you are paying their salary, and are usually very welcoming?
rupert
On Sat, Sep 26, 2015 at 9:05 PM, Risker risker.wp@gmail.com wrote:
The WMF may or may not help editors who are receiving death threats via their email systems - I'd venture to guess that in the majority of cases they're handled by admins or CUs or arbitrators by the expedient of blocking the accounts with email turned off. If you're saying you really don't want police involved, then I don't know what you'd expect the WMF to do over and above blocking the same accounts and the same IPs that can (and often are) blocked by volunteers.
I do not suggest that harassment via email (up to and including serious death threats) is a minor matter, but that the "emergency@wikimedia.org" is for threats of harm to self or others that are published onwiki where there is concern that police or other authorities should be informed because there is an imminent risk of harm. Keep in mind that that email address is staffed by a grand total of six people (the Community Advocacy team) to cover the entire world.
Risker/Anne
On 26 September 2015 at 13:59, Carol Moore dc carolmooredc@verizon.net wrote:
I was referring to threats to kill someone that clearly come from a known Wikipedia handle or editor, or, as in my case, a person who is known because it's the same kind of message they have been known to send to various others many times before.
In my case threats were sent through Wikimedia Foundation email and evidently that's what this person - and perhaps others - enjoys doing. At the very least advice to contact the Foundation also should cover such abuses. (Obviously if it's an anonymous person through another email system, it's a different issue. Though I believe the Foundation was happy to help Sitush when he was getting those kind of messages.)
As an activist I'm reluctant to deal with authorities unless it is VERY real and imminent. Those who want to report it would assume their only recourse is to go straight to the police who then will be the ones going to the Foundation to sort it out.
That is the specific issue I was addressing and the person who does that evidently is back to doing it, so perhaps others are doing it too and women are just quitting Wikipedia without telling anyone why.
I wrote:
On 9/26/2015 12:27 PM, Risker wrote:
Neotarf is correct, it is the guideline to address suicide threats and similar threats of serious harm to self or others (e.g., "I'm going to go shoot up my school") - in other words, that guideline is intended to capture situations where there is a reason to contact police or similar authorities because of an imminent threat to safety. The person adding the link probably did not really read through the point of the page. Speaking personally, I'd be pretty offended if I complained that someone was harassing me and was linked to a page about reporting suicide threats. Note that one of the shortcuts is [[WP:SUICIDE]].
I have removed that as a "Main article" because it's not really about harassment.
Risker/Anne
On 26 September 2015 at 11:52, Neotarf <neotarf@gmail.com mailto:neotarf@gmail.com> wrote:
@Carol Moore, I believe that link is about suicide threats. Did you mean to link to something else? On Thu, Sep 24, 2015 at 2:57 PM, Carol Moore dc <carolmooredc@verizon.net <mailto:carolmooredc@verizon.net>> wrote: Because of an offline discussion about the 1000 odd death threats I got directly through the Wikimedia Foundation email system and my failure to remember personally contacting them (as opposed to admins) about it, I decided to see if the Harassment article mentioned that option. I did a little research and found it was not til July 22, 2015 that the harassment article section on "threats" provided a link to the WP:Essay that specifically advises this!https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Wikipedia:Harassment&diff=672...
Now why can't the threats section include that info? Certain some well-connected editors have learned how to work that angle with the foundation for even minor issues... There's a huge section on what to do about threats of legal action, but zilch on death threats. Pretty absurd... Safe space, NOT!!* Thanks... CM *Of course, there's a difference between legitimate safe space from actual direct insults or threats of harm and the absurd degree of hypersensitivity now a days where there are trigger warnings on any opinion that someone might disagree with and protests against opinions that just aren't politically correct enough... but don't get me started... A lot of articles about it lately have exposed the absurdities and hypocrisy of some individuals and groups. And I can understand the fear of some male wikipedians they will be exposed to the most extreme varieties. It also gives the most oppressive guys an excuse to label minor and legitimate demands for safe space as "extremist." ("You extremist, you want to mention contacting the Foundation on the Harassment page!!!") Glad I'm not in college! Or any "progressive" political groups any more. Especially now that I am finally free of having to be a "good girl" on Wikipedia and can engage in anti-establishment mockery and sarcasm in my writings/artistic endeavors without worrying about wikistalkers slamming me all over Wikipedia ;-) _______________________________________________ Gendergap mailing list Gendergap@lists.wikimedia.org <mailto:Gendergap@lists.wikimedia.org> To manage your subscription preferences, including unsubscribing, please visit: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/gendergap
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rupert, i and carol have a somewhat different experience with the police. it is unclear if i would trust them to keep identity confidential. WMF should act regardless of legal status. this merry go round of not providing clear lines of responsibility and action (other than round file) is part of the systemic problem.
On Sat, Sep 26, 2015 at 4:07 PM, rupert THURNER rupert.thurner@gmail.com wrote:
risker you are joking? a death threat is a case for the police not for the wikimedia foundation. wikimedia foundation is not a para-military or para-police organization replacing standard legal systems, the wikimedia community is also not a community outside other legal systems, with special rules applying. the police has the means to deal with it professionally.
carol, if you get a death threat, why are you afraid of the police? you pay taxes and at the end of the day you are paying their salary, and are usually very welcoming?
rupert
On Sat, Sep 26, 2015 at 9:05 PM, Risker risker.wp@gmail.com wrote:
The WMF may or may not help editors who are receiving death threats via their email systems - I'd venture to guess that in the majority of cases they're handled by admins or CUs or arbitrators by the expedient of blocking the accounts with email turned off. If you're saying you really don't want police involved, then I don't know what you'd expect the WMF to do over and above blocking the same accounts and the same IPs that can (and often are) blocked by volunteers.
I do not suggest that harassment via email (up to and including serious death threats) is a minor matter, but that the "emergency@wikimedia.org" is for threats of harm to self or others that are published onwiki where there is concern that police or other authorities should be informed because there is an imminent risk of harm. Keep in mind that that email address is staffed by a grand total of six people (the Community Advocacy team) to cover the entire world.
Risker/Anne
On 26 September 2015 at 13:59, Carol Moore dc carolmooredc@verizon.net wrote:
I was referring to threats to kill someone that clearly come from a known Wikipedia handle or editor, or, as in my case, a person who is known because it's the same kind of message they have been known to send to various others many times before.
In my case threats were sent through Wikimedia Foundation email and evidently that's what this person - and perhaps others - enjoys doing. At the very least advice to contact the Foundation also should cover such abuses. (Obviously if it's an anonymous person through another email system, it's a different issue. Though I believe the Foundation was happy to help Sitush when he was getting those kind of messages.)
As an activist I'm reluctant to deal with authorities unless it is VERY real and imminent. Those who want to report it would assume their only recourse is to go straight to the police who then will be the ones going to the Foundation to sort it out.
That is the specific issue I was addressing and the person who does that evidently is back to doing it, so perhaps others are doing it too and women are just quitting Wikipedia without telling anyone why.
I wrote:
On 9/26/2015 12:27 PM, Risker wrote:
Neotarf is correct, it is the guideline to address suicide threats and similar threats of serious harm to self or others (e.g., "I'm going to go shoot up my school") - in other words, that guideline is intended to capture situations where there is a reason to contact police or similar authorities because of an imminent threat to safety. The person adding the link probably did not really read through the point of the page. Speaking personally, I'd be pretty offended if I complained that someone was harassing me and was linked to a page about reporting suicide threats. Note that one of the shortcuts is [[WP:SUICIDE]].
I have removed that as a "Main article" because it's not really about harassment.
Risker/Anne
On 26 September 2015 at 11:52, Neotarf <neotarf@gmail.com mailto:neotarf@gmail.com> wrote:
@Carol Moore, I believe that link is about suicide threats. Did you mean to link to something else? On Thu, Sep 24, 2015 at 2:57 PM, Carol Moore dc <carolmooredc@verizon.net <mailto:carolmooredc@verizon.net>> wrote: Because of an offline discussion about the 1000 odd death threats I got directly through the Wikimedia Foundation email system and my failure to remember personally contacting them (as opposed to admins) about it, I decided to see if the Harassment article mentioned that option. I did a little research and found it was not til July 22, 2015 that the harassment article section on "threats" provided a link to the WP:Essay that specifically advises this!https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Wikipedia:Harassment&diff=672...
Now why can't the threats section include that info? Certain some well-connected editors have learned how to work that angle with the foundation for even minor issues... There's a huge section on what to do about threats of legal action, but zilch on death threats. Pretty absurd... Safe space, NOT!!* Thanks... CM *Of course, there's a difference between legitimate safe space from actual direct insults or threats of harm and the absurd degree of hypersensitivity now a days where there are trigger warnings on any opinion that someone might disagree with and protests against opinions that just aren't politically correct enough... but don't get me started... A lot of articles about it lately have exposed the absurdities and hypocrisy of some individuals and groups. And I can understand the fear of some male wikipedians they will be exposed to the most extreme varieties. It also gives the most oppressive guys an excuse to label minor and legitimate demands for safe space as "extremist." ("You extremist, you want to mention contacting the Foundation on the Harassment page!!!") Glad I'm not in college! Or any "progressive" political groups any more. Especially now that I am finally free of having to be a "good girl" on Wikipedia and can engage in anti-establishment mockery and sarcasm in my writings/artistic endeavors without worrying about wikistalkers slamming me all over Wikipedia ;-) _______________________________________________ Gendergap mailing list Gendergap@lists.wikimedia.org <mailto:Gendergap@lists.wikimedia.org> To manage your subscription preferences, including unsubscribing, please visit: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/gendergap
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I have a simple question to ask: How many people in this thread have publicly or privately requested to the Wikimedia Foundation ED that additional resources be assigned to trust and safety issues such as death threats?
There was an annual plan posted for about three days of community comment back in May/June. Did anyone in this thread say "wait a minute, we think you have your priorities wrong here"?
I'm a little stunned that several people including those with years of activism under their belts would think that complaining on a mailing list that is at most hosted by the WMF (and certainly not controlled by it or monitored by it) would result in changes. The English Wikipedia community can't tell WMF staffers what to do: we're not their employers, we don't set their objectives or their job descriptions, and so on. The lack of additional resources comes right from the top here. If you want it, you need to be telling the Board, you need to be telling the ED, and you need to be telling the Senior Director of Community Engagement, Luis Villa. This list isn't gonna do it. Posting on Wikipediocracy is the equivalent of throwing coins in a well. Focus your attention on the people who have control of the money and persuade them this is something more important than...I don't know, whether notifications are flagged using one tag or two...
Risker/Anne
On 26 September 2015 at 16:29, J Hayes slowking4@gmail.com wrote:
rupert, i and carol have a somewhat different experience with the police. it is unclear if i would trust them to keep identity confidential. WMF should act regardless of legal status. this merry go round of not providing clear lines of responsibility and action (other than round file) is part of the systemic problem.
On Sat, Sep 26, 2015 at 4:07 PM, rupert THURNER rupert.thurner@gmail.com wrote:
risker you are joking? a death threat is a case for the police not for the wikimedia foundation. wikimedia foundation is not a para-military or para-police organization replacing standard legal systems, the wikimedia community is also not a community outside other legal systems, with special rules applying. the police has the means to deal with it professionally.
carol, if you get a death threat, why are you afraid of the police? you pay taxes and at the end of the day you are paying their salary, and are usually very welcoming?
rupert
On Sat, Sep 26, 2015 at 9:05 PM, Risker risker.wp@gmail.com wrote:
The WMF may or may not help editors who are receiving death threats via their email systems - I'd venture to guess that in the majority of cases they're handled by admins or CUs or arbitrators by the expedient of blocking the accounts with email turned off. If you're saying you really don't want police involved, then I don't know what you'd expect the WMF to do over and above blocking the same accounts and the same IPs that can (and often are) blocked by volunteers.
I do not suggest that harassment via email (up to and including serious death threats) is a minor matter, but that the "emergency@wikimedia.org" is for threats of harm to self or others that are published onwiki where there is concern that police or other authorities should be informed because there is an imminent risk of harm. Keep in mind that that email address is staffed by a grand total of six people (the Community Advocacy team) to cover the entire world.
Risker/Anne
On 26 September 2015 at 13:59, Carol Moore dc carolmooredc@verizon.net wrote:
I was referring to threats to kill someone that clearly come from a known Wikipedia handle or editor, or, as in my case, a person who is known because it's the same kind of message they have been known to send to various others many times before.
In my case threats were sent through Wikimedia Foundation email and evidently that's what this person - and perhaps others - enjoys doing. At the very least advice to contact the Foundation also should cover such abuses. (Obviously if it's an anonymous person through another email system, it's a different issue. Though I believe the Foundation was happy to help Sitush when he was getting those kind of messages.)
As an activist I'm reluctant to deal with authorities unless it is VERY real and imminent. Those who want to report it would assume their only recourse is to go straight to the police who then will be the ones going to the Foundation to sort it out.
That is the specific issue I was addressing and the person who does that evidently is back to doing it, so perhaps others are doing it too and women are just quitting Wikipedia without telling anyone why.
I wrote:
On 9/26/2015 12:27 PM, Risker wrote:
Neotarf is correct, it is the guideline to address suicide threats and similar threats of serious harm to self or others (e.g., "I'm going to go shoot up my school") - in other words, that guideline is intended to capture situations where there is a reason to contact police or similar authorities because of an imminent threat to safety. The person adding the link probably did not really read through the point of the page. Speaking personally, I'd be pretty offended if I complained that someone was harassing me and was linked to a page about reporting suicide threats. Note that one of the shortcuts is [[WP:SUICIDE]].
I have removed that as a "Main article" because it's not really about harassment.
Risker/Anne
On 26 September 2015 at 11:52, Neotarf <neotarf@gmail.com mailto:neotarf@gmail.com> wrote:
@Carol Moore, I believe that link is about suicide threats. Didyou mean to link to something else?
On Thu, Sep 24, 2015 at 2:57 PM, Carol Moore dc <carolmooredc@verizon.net <mailto:carolmooredc@verizon.net>>wrote:
Because of an offline discussion about the 1000 odd death threats I got directly through the Wikimedia Foundation email system and my failure to remember personally contacting them(as opposed to admins) about it, I decided to see if the Harassment article mentioned that option.
I did a little research and found it was not til July 22, 2015 that the harassment article section on "threats" provided alink to the WP:Essay that specifically advises this!
https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Wikipedia:Harassment&diff=672...
Now why can't the threats section include that info? Certain some well-connected editors have learned how to work that angle with the foundation for even minor issues... There's a huge section on what to do about threats of legal action, but zilch on death threats. Pretty absurd... Safe space, NOT!!* Thanks... CM *Of course, there's a difference between legitimate safe space from actual direct insults or threats of harm and the absurd degree of hypersensitivity now a days where there are trigger warnings on any opinion that someone might disagree with and protests against opinions that just aren't politically correct enough... but don't get me started... A lot of articles about it lately have exposed the absurdities and hypocrisy of some individuals and groups. And I can understand the fear of some male wikipedians they will be exposed to the most extreme varieties. It also gives the most oppressive guys an excuse to label minor and legitimate demands for safe space as "extremist." ("You extremist, you want to mention contacting the Foundation on the Harassment page!!!") Glad I'm not in college! Or any "progressive" political groups any more. Especially now that I am finally free of having tobe a "good girl" on Wikipedia and can engage in anti-establishment mockery and sarcasm in my writings/artistic endeavors without worrying about wikistalkers slamming me all over Wikipedia ;-)
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I'll be happy to see a lot of the information and reasoning explained in the harassment document, including first encouraging people to contact an administrator. (Identifying administrators who are experienced in the topic would help too.)
Reasons one might not immediately contact police - unless the guy is basically outside your door- have been explained above. Like not having enough details to satisfy them or their not taking it very seriously anyway, unless they are outside the door. And then some will always be fearful that such a complaint will lead to a search of their own computers for the evidence there was a crime and they don't want the govt snooping around in there (any more than it may already be without their knowing about it).
My main goal is better guidance on Wikipedia.
On 9/26/2015 4:38 PM, Risker wrote:
I have a simple question to ask: How many people in this thread have publicly or privately requested to the Wikimedia Foundation ED that additional resources be assigned to trust and safety issues such as death threats?
There was an annual plan posted for about three days of community comment back in May/June. Did anyone in this thread say "wait a minute, we think you have your priorities wrong here"?
I'm a little stunned that several people including those with years of activism under their belts would think that complaining on a mailing list that is at most hosted by the WMF (and certainly not controlled by it or monitored by it) would result in changes. The English Wikipedia community can't tell WMF staffers what to do: we're not their employers, we don't set their objectives or their job descriptions, and so on. The lack of additional resources comes right from the top here. If you want it, you need to be telling the Board, you need to be telling the ED, and you need to be telling the Senior Director of Community Engagement, Luis Villa. This list isn't gonna do it. Posting on Wikipediocracy is the equivalent of throwing coins in a well. Focus your attention on the people who have control of the money and persuade them this is something more important than...I don't know, whether notifications are flagged using one tag or two...
Risker/Anne
Rupert, I suppose I'm jaded by some of the things that people have characterized as a death threat over the years. Nasty as it may be to say "rot in hell", that's not a death threat. It was an interesting challenge to explain to someone once that "die you gravy-sucking pig" was actually a Steve Martin comedy routine, and not a real death threat. Jerky things to say, yes. I've blocked accounts with email disabled on several occasions when they've sent abuse via the "email this user" interface.
Having been one of the people who did call police in the past before the WMF instituted "emergency@", I can tell you that the police will RARELY take anyone seriously if they say "there's someone who wrote on Wikipedia that he's gonna jump off a bridge". They want to hear it from someone who has an easy to verify email address, is using their real name, and can provide them with enough information to get a warrant if it's needed (e.g., IP addresses, links to the threat itself - which will normally have been suppressed, etc). And it is rare for police to take email threats seriously - Gamergate should be enough of an example there.
Risker/Anne
On 26 September 2015 at 16:07, rupert THURNER rupert.thurner@gmail.com wrote:
risker you are joking? a death threat is a case for the police not for the wikimedia foundation. wikimedia foundation is not a para-military or para-police organization replacing standard legal systems, the wikimedia community is also not a community outside other legal systems, with special rules applying. the police has the means to deal with it professionally.
carol, if you get a death threat, why are you afraid of the police? you pay taxes and at the end of the day you are paying their salary, and are usually very welcoming?
rupert
On Sat, Sep 26, 2015 at 9:05 PM, Risker risker.wp@gmail.com wrote:
The WMF may or may not help editors who are receiving death threats via their email systems - I'd venture to guess that in the majority of cases they're handled by admins or CUs or arbitrators by the expedient of blocking the accounts with email turned off. If you're saying you really don't want police involved, then I don't know what you'd expect the WMF to do over and above blocking the same accounts and the same IPs that can (and often are) blocked by volunteers.
I do not suggest that harassment via email (up to and including serious death threats) is a minor matter, but that the "emergency@wikimedia.org" is for threats of harm to self or others that are published onwiki where there is concern that police or other authorities should be informed because there is an imminent risk of harm. Keep in mind that that email address is staffed by a grand total of six people (the Community Advocacy team) to cover the entire world.
Risker/Anne
On 26 September 2015 at 13:59, Carol Moore dc carolmooredc@verizon.net wrote:
I was referring to threats to kill someone that clearly come from a known Wikipedia handle or editor, or, as in my case, a person who is known because it's the same kind of message they have been known to send to various others many times before.
In my case threats were sent through Wikimedia Foundation email and evidently that's what this person - and perhaps others - enjoys doing. At the very least advice to contact the Foundation also should cover such abuses. (Obviously if it's an anonymous person through another email system, it's a different issue. Though I believe the Foundation was happy to help Sitush when he was getting those kind of messages.)
As an activist I'm reluctant to deal with authorities unless it is VERY real and imminent. Those who want to report it would assume their only recourse is to go straight to the police who then will be the ones going to the Foundation to sort it out.
That is the specific issue I was addressing and the person who does that evidently is back to doing it, so perhaps others are doing it too and women are just quitting Wikipedia without telling anyone why.
I wrote:
On 9/26/2015 12:27 PM, Risker wrote:
Neotarf is correct, it is the guideline to address suicide threats and similar threats of serious harm to self or others (e.g., "I'm going to go shoot up my school") - in other words, that guideline is intended to capture situations where there is a reason to contact police or similar authorities because of an imminent threat to safety. The person adding the link probably did not really read through the point of the page. Speaking personally, I'd be pretty offended if I complained that someone was harassing me and was linked to a page about reporting suicide threats. Note that one of the shortcuts is [[WP:SUICIDE]].
I have removed that as a "Main article" because it's not really about harassment.
Risker/Anne
On 26 September 2015 at 11:52, Neotarf <neotarf@gmail.com mailto:neotarf@gmail.com> wrote:
@Carol Moore, I believe that link is about suicide threats. Did you mean to link to something else? On Thu, Sep 24, 2015 at 2:57 PM, Carol Moore dc <carolmooredc@verizon.net <mailto:carolmooredc@verizon.net>> wrote: Because of an offline discussion about the 1000 odd death threats I got directly through the Wikimedia Foundation email system and my failure to remember personally contacting them (as opposed to admins) about it, I decided to see if the Harassment article mentioned that option. I did a little research and found it was not til July 22, 2015 that the harassment article section on "threats" provided a link to the WP:Essay that specifically advises this!https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Wikipedia:Harassment&diff=672...
Now why can't the threats section include that info? Certain some well-connected editors have learned how to work that angle with the foundation for even minor issues... There's a huge section on what to do about threats of legal action, but zilch on death threats. Pretty absurd... Safe space, NOT!!* Thanks... CM *Of course, there's a difference between legitimate safe space from actual direct insults or threats of harm and the absurd degree of hypersensitivity now a days where there are trigger warnings on any opinion that someone might disagree with and protests against opinions that just aren't politically correct enough... but don't get me started... A lot of articles about it lately have exposed the absurdities and hypocrisy of some individuals and groups. And I can understand the fear of some male wikipedians they will be exposed to the most extreme varieties. It also gives the most oppressive guys an excuse to label minor and legitimate demands for safe space as "extremist." ("You extremist, you want to mention contacting the Foundation on the Harassment page!!!") Glad I'm not in college! Or any "progressive" political groups any more. Especially now that I am finally free of having to be a "good girl" on Wikipedia and can engage in anti-establishment mockery and sarcasm in my writings/artistic endeavors without worrying about wikistalkers slamming me all over Wikipedia ;-) _______________________________________________ Gendergap mailing list Gendergap@lists.wikimedia.org <mailto:Gendergap@lists.wikimedia.org> To manage your subscription preferences, including unsubscribing, please visit: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/gendergap
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Unfortunately, death threat jokes are like airport bomb jokes, best not uttered. Even if they are part of a Steve Martin comedy routine, if you don’t get the joke, you are receiving a threat or others misread it as a threat. Clearly getting a joke depends on a shared cultural knowledge (I’ve never heard of this Steve Martin line either) and in a worldwide multi-cultural multilingual organisation, shared culture can’t be assumed. It’s like the use of swear words which may not be offensive in some cultures but are in others. I think we do have discourage the use of jokes just as we should discourage the use of swear words or words that may have unintended interpretations in some cultures. Obviously most people when they make their original statement probably have no ill intent, just unaware how it might be misinterpreted. But I think after you let people know that certain words are likely to give offence in some quarters and they persist in using them, you have to suspect the offence is intended or they are simply arrogant people indifferent to the impact on their remarks (either of which is a reason to be taking action against them). But I don’t think we should belittle the concern of those who received what seems to them as a threat or offensive remark. “Die you …” is something to remove from our vocabularies, even in jest. We should not be saying “silly you for not recognising it was a joke ”.
As regards the police, the Internet is a major jurisdictional problem. If one Wikipedia user makes a death threat against another on-wiki or via email, which police do you call? The San Francisco police are unlikely to be interested in threats if neither party are in SF. I think you do need to go via the Foundation to get whatever real world information they can provide in terms of real names or locations derived from IP addresses etc. Even then, the information will often be insufficient to determine real world identities at which point I think the police will lose interest very rapidly. Police have to prioritise and it must be difficult for them to see the point of investigating internet threats (even if there is evidence the parties may be within their jurisdiction) over threats being traded between next door neighbours where there is a clear response that they can make by sending a police car around to “have a word”. Would/should Wikipedia policies allow an equivalent response? That is, allow the creation of an account called “Queensland Police” and then for that account to go to a User Talk page and say “Queensland Police here – stop those threats or else we’ll prosecute you under Section 123 of the Whatever Act” accompanied perhaps by a photo of a police car with flashing lights?
Kerry
From: Gendergap [mailto:gendergap-bounces@lists.wikimedia.org] On Behalf Of Risker Sent: Sunday, 27 September 2015 6:30 AM To: Addressing gender equity and exploring ways to increase the participation of women within Wikimedia projects. gendergap@lists.wikimedia.org Subject: Re: [Gendergap] WP:Harassment finally links to solution for threats!
Rupert, I suppose I'm jaded by some of the things that people have characterized as a death threat over the years. Nasty as it may be to say "rot in hell", that's not a death threat. It was an interesting challenge to explain to someone once that "die you gravy-sucking pig" was actually a Steve Martin comedy routine, and not a real death threat. Jerky things to say, yes. I've blocked accounts with email disabled on several occasions when they've sent abuse via the "email this user" interface.
Having been one of the people who did call police in the past before the WMF instituted "emergency@", I can tell you that the police will RARELY take anyone seriously if they say "there's someone who wrote on Wikipedia that he's gonna jump off a bridge". They want to hear it from someone who has an easy to verify email address, is using their real name, and can provide them with enough information to get a warrant if it's needed (e.g., IP addresses, links to the threat itself - which will normally have been suppressed, etc). And it is rare for police to take email threats seriously - Gamergate should be enough of an example there.
Risker/Anne
On 26 September 2015 at 16:07, rupert THURNER <rupert.thurner@gmail.com mailto:rupert.thurner@gmail.com > wrote:
risker you are joking? a death threat is a case for the police not for the wikimedia foundation. wikimedia foundation is not a para-military or para-police organization replacing standard legal systems, the wikimedia community is also not a community outside other legal systems, with special rules applying. the police has the means to deal with it professionally.
carol, if you get a death threat, why are you afraid of the police? you pay taxes and at the end of the day you are paying their salary, and are usually very welcoming?
rupert
On Sat, Sep 26, 2015 at 9:05 PM, Risker <risker.wp@gmail.com mailto:risker.wp@gmail.com > wrote:
The WMF may or may not help editors who are receiving death threats via their email systems - I'd venture to guess that in the majority of cases they're handled by admins or CUs or arbitrators by the expedient of blocking the accounts with email turned off. If you're saying you really don't want police involved, then I don't know what you'd expect the WMF to do over and above blocking the same accounts and the same IPs that can (and often are) blocked by volunteers.
I do not suggest that harassment via email (up to and including serious death threats) is a minor matter, but that the "emergency@wikimedia.org mailto:emergency@wikimedia.org " is for threats of harm to self or others that are published onwiki where there is concern that police or other authorities should be informed because there is an imminent risk of harm. Keep in mind that that email address is staffed by a grand total of six people (the Community Advocacy team) to cover the entire world.
Risker/Anne
On 26 September 2015 at 13:59, Carol Moore dc <carolmooredc@verizon.net mailto:carolmooredc@verizon.net > wrote:
I was referring to threats to kill someone that clearly come from a known Wikipedia handle or editor, or, as in my case, a person who is known because it's the same kind of message they have been known to send to various others many times before.
In my case threats were sent through Wikimedia Foundation email and evidently that's what this person - and perhaps others - enjoys doing. At the very least advice to contact the Foundation also should cover such abuses. (Obviously if it's an anonymous person through another email system, it's a different issue. Though I believe the Foundation was happy to help Sitush when he was getting those kind of messages.)
As an activist I'm reluctant to deal with authorities unless it is VERY real and imminent. Those who want to report it would assume their only recourse is to go straight to the police who then will be the ones going to the Foundation to sort it out.
That is the specific issue I was addressing and the person who does that evidently is back to doing it, so perhaps others are doing it too and women are just quitting Wikipedia without telling anyone why.
I wrote:
On 9/26/2015 12:27 PM, Risker wrote:
Neotarf is correct, it is the guideline to address suicide threats and similar threats of serious harm to self or others (e.g., "I'm going to go shoot up my school") - in other words, that guideline is intended to capture situations where there is a reason to contact police or similar authorities because of an imminent threat to safety. The person adding the link probably did not really read through the point of the page. Speaking personally, I'd be pretty offended if I complained that someone was harassing me and was linked to a page about reporting suicide threats. Note that one of the shortcuts is [[WP:SUICIDE]].
I have removed that as a "Main article" because it's not really about harassment.
Risker/Anne
On 26 September 2015 at 11:52, Neotarf <neotarf@gmail.com mailto:neotarf@gmail.com <mailto:neotarf@gmail.com mailto:neotarf@gmail.com >> wrote:
@Carol Moore, I believe that link is about suicide threats. Did you mean to link to something else?
On Thu, Sep 24, 2015 at 2:57 PM, Carol Moore dc
<carolmooredc@verizon.net mailto:carolmooredc@verizon.net <mailto:carolmooredc@verizon.net mailto:carolmooredc@verizon.net >> wrote:
Because of an offline discussion about the 1000 odd death threats I got directly through the Wikimedia Foundation email system and my failure to remember personally contacting them (as opposed to admins) about it, I decided to see if the Harassment article mentioned that option.
I did a little research and found it was not til July 22, 2015 that the harassment article section on "threats" provided a link to the WP:Essay that specifically advises this!
https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Wikipedia:Harassment https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Wikipedia:Harassment&diff=672630056&oldid=672391122 &diff=672630056&oldid=672391122
Now why can't the threats section include that info? Certain some well-connected editors have learned how to work that angle with the foundation for even minor issues...
There's a huge section on what to do about threats of legal action, but zilch on death threats. Pretty absurd... Safe space, NOT!!*
Thanks...
CM
*Of course, there's a difference between legitimate safe space from actual direct insults or threats of harm and the absurd degree of hypersensitivity now a days where there are trigger warnings on any opinion that someone might disagree with and protests against opinions that just aren't politically correct enough... but don't get me started...
A lot of articles about it lately have exposed the absurdities and hypocrisy of some individuals and groups. And I can understand the fear of some male wikipedians they will be exposed to the most extreme varieties. It also gives the most oppressive guys an excuse to label minor and legitimate demands for safe space as "extremist." ("You extremist, you want to mention contacting the Foundation on the Harassment page!!!")
Glad I'm not in college! Or any "progressive" political groups any more. Especially now that I am finally free of having to be a "good girl" on Wikipedia and can engage in anti-establishment mockery and sarcasm in my writings/artistic endeavors without worrying about wikistalkers slamming me all over Wikipedia ;-)
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anne, thank you so much, for the first time i think i understand the problem. "rot in hell" is a very good example of anger. anger is something common on wikipedia, anger management is something surprisingly ignored. i never read about it in a mailing list, and i do not know a single person in the movement being expert in it. there are texts like https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:No_angry_mastodons, https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Staying_cool_when_the_editing_gets_h... which do not really address anger. i tried to search for links with the keywords "draw your anger", see below.
one of the links which came up is a book called "Helping Your Kids Deal with Anger, Fear, and Sadness". let me cite a couple of sentences: "anger is an emotion, aggression is an action. many confuse anger with aggression ... when we do not understand our anger and allow it to get out of control, it can lead to aggressive behaviors that are sinful, dangerous, and even deadly. the emotion of anger itself is not the problem ... the real problem is the mismanagement and misunderstanding of the emotion." "Anger: a secondary emotion: ... emotions that most frequently precede anger fear, hurt, frustration." " give them both a way of venting their anger .. when you've got your anger out, we'll talk about it"
* https://books.google.ch/books?id=crqTOLr1CQwC&pg=PA73&lpg=PA73&d...
* http://www.apa.org/topics/anger/control.aspx * https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BsVq5R_F6RA
rupert
On Sat, Sep 26, 2015 at 10:30 PM, Risker risker.wp@gmail.com wrote:
Rupert, I suppose I'm jaded by some of the things that people have characterized as a death threat over the years. Nasty as it may be to say "rot in hell", that's not a death threat. It was an interesting challenge to explain to someone once that "die you gravy-sucking pig" was actually a Steve Martin comedy routine, and not a real death threat. Jerky things to say, yes. I've blocked accounts with email disabled on several occasions when they've sent abuse via the "email this user" interface.
Having been one of the people who did call police in the past before the WMF instituted "emergency@", I can tell you that the police will RARELY take anyone seriously if they say "there's someone who wrote on Wikipedia that he's gonna jump off a bridge". They want to hear it from someone who has an easy to verify email address, is using their real name, and can provide them with enough information to get a warrant if it's needed (e.g., IP addresses, links to the threat itself - which will normally have been suppressed, etc). And it is rare for police to take email threats seriously - Gamergate should be enough of an example there.
Risker/Anne
On 26 September 2015 at 16:07, rupert THURNER rupert.thurner@gmail.com wrote:
risker you are joking? a death threat is a case for the police not for the wikimedia foundation. wikimedia foundation is not a para-military or para-police organization replacing standard legal systems, the wikimedia community is also not a community outside other legal systems, with special rules applying. the police has the means to deal with it professionally.
carol, if you get a death threat, why are you afraid of the police? you pay taxes and at the end of the day you are paying their salary, and are usually very welcoming?
rupert
On Sat, Sep 26, 2015 at 9:05 PM, Risker risker.wp@gmail.com wrote:
The WMF may or may not help editors who are receiving death threats via their email systems - I'd venture to guess that in the majority of cases they're handled by admins or CUs or arbitrators by the expedient of blocking the accounts with email turned off. If you're saying you really don't want police involved, then I don't know what you'd expect the WMF to do over and above blocking the same accounts and the same IPs that can (and often are) blocked by volunteers.
I do not suggest that harassment via email (up to and including serious death threats) is a minor matter, but that the "emergency@wikimedia.org" is for threats of harm to self or others that are published onwiki where there is concern that police or other authorities should be informed because there is an imminent risk of harm. Keep in mind that that email address is staffed by a grand total of six people (the Community Advocacy team) to cover the entire world.
Risker/Anne
On 26 September 2015 at 13:59, Carol Moore dc carolmooredc@verizon.net wrote:
I was referring to threats to kill someone that clearly come from a known Wikipedia handle or editor, or, as in my case, a person who is known because it's the same kind of message they have been known to send to various others many times before.
In my case threats were sent through Wikimedia Foundation email and evidently that's what this person - and perhaps others - enjoys doing. At the very least advice to contact the Foundation also should cover such abuses. (Obviously if it's an anonymous person through another email system, it's a different issue. Though I believe the Foundation was happy to help Sitush when he was getting those kind of messages.)
As an activist I'm reluctant to deal with authorities unless it is VERY real and imminent. Those who want to report it would assume their only recourse is to go straight to the police who then will be the ones going to the Foundation to sort it out.
That is the specific issue I was addressing and the person who does that evidently is back to doing it, so perhaps others are doing it too and women are just quitting Wikipedia without telling anyone why.
I wrote:
On 9/26/2015 12:27 PM, Risker wrote:
Neotarf is correct, it is the guideline to address suicide threats and similar threats of serious harm to self or others (e.g., "I'm going to go shoot up my school") - in other words, that guideline is intended to capture situations where there is a reason to contact police or similar authorities because of an imminent threat to safety. The person adding the link probably did not really read through the point of the page. Speaking personally, I'd be pretty offended if I complained that someone was harassing me and was linked to a page about reporting suicide threats. Note that one of the shortcuts is [[WP:SUICIDE]].
I have removed that as a "Main article" because it's not really about harassment.
Risker/Anne
On 26 September 2015 at 11:52, Neotarf <neotarf@gmail.com mailto:neotarf@gmail.com> wrote:
@Carol Moore, I believe that link is about suicide threats. Didyou mean to link to something else?
On Thu, Sep 24, 2015 at 2:57 PM, Carol Moore dc <carolmooredc@verizon.net <mailto:carolmooredc@verizon.net>>wrote:
Because of an offline discussion about the 1000 odd death threats I got directly through the Wikimedia Foundation email system and my failure to remember personally contacting them(as opposed to admins) about it, I decided to see if the Harassment article mentioned that option.
I did a little research and found it was not til July 22, 2015 that the harassment article section on "threats" provided alink to the WP:Essay that specifically advises this!
https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Wikipedia:Harassment&diff=672...
Now why can't the threats section include that info? Certain some well-connected editors have learned how to work that angle with the foundation for even minor issues... There's a huge section on what to do about threats of legal action, but zilch on death threats. Pretty absurd... Safe space, NOT!!* Thanks... CM *Of course, there's a difference between legitimate safe space from actual direct insults or threats of harm and the absurd degree of hypersensitivity now a days where there are trigger warnings on any opinion that someone might disagree with and protests against opinions that just aren't politically correct enough... but don't get me started... A lot of articles about it lately have exposed the absurdities and hypocrisy of some individuals and groups. And I can understand the fear of some male wikipedians they will be exposed to the most extreme varieties. It also gives the most oppressive guys an excuse to label minor and legitimate demands for safe space as "extremist." ("You extremist, you want to mention contacting the Foundation on the Harassment page!!!") Glad I'm not in college! Or any "progressive" political groups any more. Especially now that I am finally free of having tobe a "good girl" on Wikipedia and can engage in anti-establishment mockery and sarcasm in my writings/artistic endeavors without worrying about wikistalkers slamming me all over Wikipedia ;-)
On 9/27/2015 1:49 AM, rupert THURNER wrote:
anne, thank you so much, for the first time i think i understand the problem. "rot in hell" is a very good example of anger. anger is something common on wikipedia, anger management is something surprisingly ignored.
Just in case people don't understand what kind of threats we're discussing here I just pulled up the 2011 messages, about half of those I got, and found: *Several introductory ones saying they knew where I lived because info so easily found on the internet *Around 100 calling me a bitch and saying they'd murder me *Only one a few days later saying "you will die" *Another hundred calling me a stupid whore and making nasty accusations *265 only called me a spineless leftist hypocrite *84 calling me a whore and accusing me of having sex with the admin who started somehow interrupting his emails (which he continued sending through the wikipedia system until he stopped)
I have another 500 odd in another file from a year or so later but don't feel like uploading and searching...
On wikipedia, 8/11/11 there was a relatively tame one predicting I'd be dead "12 months from now". It was removed but I kept the JPG. Don't have JPGs for other ones that were removed that day. My pages were protected vs. non-verified users after that. https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=User_talk%3ACarolmooredc&acti...
Like I've said, having put up with nonsense - and death threats - from guys already since 1990 online, I wasn't scared just really annoyed. Especially knowing some people WOULD be scared by this sort of thing...
So a clear statement not to get upset and know there are clear and escalating steps you can take would help...
And then there was the gif of me being beaten to death with my name on it that lasted on wikicommons a couple days before it was taken down. Still have a copy...
@Risker: "I have a simple question to ask: How many people in this thread have publicly or privately requested to the Wikimedia Foundation ED that additional resources be assigned to trust and safety issues such as death threats?"
Answer: 26. https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Grants:IdeaLab/Community_discussion_on_haras...
That said, everyone I know of who has ever publicly objected to sexual harassment has subsequently been indeffed. Maybe that's what the essay should say.
On Mon, Sep 28, 2015 at 12:37 AM, Carol Moore dc carolmooredc@verizon.net wrote:
On 9/27/2015 1:49 AM, rupert THURNER wrote:
anne, thank you so much, for the first time i think i understand the problem. "rot in hell" is a very good example of anger. anger is something common on wikipedia, anger management is something surprisingly ignored.
Just in case people don't understand what kind of threats we're discussing here I just pulled up the 2011 messages, about half of those I got, and found: *Several introductory ones saying they knew where I lived because info so easily found on the internet *Around 100 calling me a bitch and saying they'd murder me *Only one a few days later saying "you will die" *Another hundred calling me a stupid whore and making nasty accusations *265 only called me a spineless leftist hypocrite *84 calling me a whore and accusing me of having sex with the admin who started somehow interrupting his emails (which he continued sending through the wikipedia system until he stopped)
I have another 500 odd in another file from a year or so later but don't feel like uploading and searching...
On wikipedia, 8/11/11 there was a relatively tame one predicting I'd be dead "12 months from now". It was removed but I kept the JPG. Don't have JPGs for other ones that were removed that day. My pages were protected vs. non-verified users after that. https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=User_talk%3ACarolmooredc&acti...
Like I've said, having put up with nonsense - and death threats - from guys already since 1990 online, I wasn't scared just really annoyed. Especially knowing some people WOULD be scared by this sort of thing...
So a clear statement not to get upset and know there are clear and escalating steps you can take would help...
And then there was the gif of me being beaten to death with my name on it that lasted on wikicommons a couple days before it was taken down. Still have a copy...
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I am surprised to discover that you believe I have been indeffed.
Perhaps you need to redefine what you are talking about. There are dozens of people on this list, and plenty of others on that page you just linked, who have objected publicly to sexual harassment but have never been blocked or sanctioned, let alone indeffed. Please stop spreading such nasty memes. It is hurtful.
Risker
On 28 September 2015 at 20:20, Neotarf neotarf@gmail.com wrote:
@Risker: "I have a simple question to ask: How many people in this thread have publicly or privately requested to the Wikimedia Foundation ED that additional resources be assigned to trust and safety issues such as death threats?"
Answer: 26. https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Grants:IdeaLab/Community_discussion_on_haras...
That said, everyone I know of who has ever publicly objected to sexual harassment has subsequently been indeffed. Maybe that's what the essay should say.
On Mon, Sep 28, 2015 at 12:37 AM, Carol Moore dc <carolmooredc@verizon.net
wrote:
On 9/27/2015 1:49 AM, rupert THURNER wrote:
anne, thank you so much, for the first time i think i understand the problem. "rot in hell" is a very good example of anger. anger is something common on wikipedia, anger management is something surprisingly ignored.
Just in case people don't understand what kind of threats we're discussing here I just pulled up the 2011 messages, about half of those I got, and found: *Several introductory ones saying they knew where I lived because info so easily found on the internet *Around 100 calling me a bitch and saying they'd murder me *Only one a few days later saying "you will die" *Another hundred calling me a stupid whore and making nasty accusations *265 only called me a spineless leftist hypocrite *84 calling me a whore and accusing me of having sex with the admin who started somehow interrupting his emails (which he continued sending through the wikipedia system until he stopped)
I have another 500 odd in another file from a year or so later but don't feel like uploading and searching...
On wikipedia, 8/11/11 there was a relatively tame one predicting I'd be dead "12 months from now". It was removed but I kept the JPG. Don't have JPGs for other ones that were removed that day. My pages were protected vs. non-verified users after that. https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=User_talk%3ACarolmooredc&acti...
Like I've said, having put up with nonsense - and death threats - from guys already since 1990 online, I wasn't scared just really annoyed. Especially knowing some people WOULD be scared by this sort of thing...
So a clear statement not to get upset and know there are clear and escalating steps you can take would help...
And then there was the gif of me being beaten to death with my name on it that lasted on wikicommons a couple days before it was taken down. Still have a copy...
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On Mon, Sep 28, 2015 at 8:20 PM, Neotarf neotarf@gmail.com wrote:
@Risker: "I have a simple question to ask: How many people in this thread have publicly or privately requested to the Wikimedia Foundation ED that additional resources be assigned to trust and safety issues such as death threats?"
Answer: 26. https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Grants:IdeaLab/Community_discussion_on_haras...
That said, everyone I know of who has ever publicly objected to sexual harassment has subsequently been indeffed. Maybe that's what the essay should say.
Really? I can name a half dozen off the top of my head that became admins, functionaries, arbitrators, etc. At least some are still active. I don't think "if you report harassment you'll be blocked indefinitely" would be an accurate thing to tell people.
I think Kerry's post sort of misses the point. No one will argue that even "joke" death threats are acceptable or fine; there just is no point in wasting police resources by reporting "threats" that turn out to be joke memes or totally unserious. The police realize this and ignore most threats; unfortunately, they don't have any reliable method for sorting out the 1 threat in a million that represents real danger.
Could you post a link to one or two of the discussions, and how they went down? I really need to read something like that right now.
On Mon, Sep 28, 2015 at 8:50 PM, Nathan nawrich@gmail.com wrote:
On Mon, Sep 28, 2015 at 8:20 PM, Neotarf neotarf@gmail.com wrote:
That said, everyone I know of who has ever publicly objected to sexual harassment has subsequently been indeffed. Maybe that's what the essay should say.
Really? I can name a half dozen off the top of my head that became admins, functionaries, arbitrators, etc. At least some are still active. I don't think "if you report harassment you'll be blocked indefinitely" would be an accurate thing to tell people.
You linked to a discussion on the ideas lab which you stated included 26 people speaking out against sexual harassment. Most of those people are not indeffed or sanctioned in any way. Many of them are administrators or hold other permissions.
Risker
On 29 September 2015 at 08:25, Neotarf neotarf@gmail.com wrote:
Could you post a link to one or two of the discussions, and how they went down? I really need to read something like that right now.
On Mon, Sep 28, 2015 at 8:50 PM, Nathan nawrich@gmail.com wrote:
On Mon, Sep 28, 2015 at 8:20 PM, Neotarf neotarf@gmail.com wrote:
That said, everyone I know of who has ever publicly objected to sexual harassment has subsequently been indeffed. Maybe that's what the essay should say.
Really? I can name a half dozen off the top of my head that became admins, functionaries, arbitrators, etc. At least some are still active. I don't think "if you report harassment you'll be blocked indefinitely" would be an accurate thing to tell people.
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On Mon, Sep 28, 2015 at 8:49 PM, Risker risker.wp@gmail.com wrote:
I am surprised to discover that you believe I have been indeffed.
Risker
Oh, please. Do you really think anyone believes you have been indeffed? Or maybe I am reading that wrong, and it was meant as sarcasm.
On Mon, Sep 28, 2015 at 8:49 PM, Risker risker.wp@gmail.com wrote:
Perhaps you need to redefine what you are talking about. There are dozens of people on this list, and plenty of others on that page you just linked, who have objected publicly to sexual harassment but have never been blocked or sanctioned, let alone indeffed. Please stop spreading such nasty memes. It is hurtful.
Risker
I remember some time ago we had a disagreement over something by email. Much much later, I was proved wrong. Please prove me wrong this time. Please.
On Tue, Sep 29, 2015 at 8:42 AM, Risker risker.wp@gmail.com wrote:
You linked to a discussion on the ideas lab which you stated included 26 people speaking out against sexual harassment. Most of those people are not indeffed or sanctioned in any way. Many of them are administrators or hold other permissions.
Risker
I am a newbie with less than a thousand edits to articles, and I have only written about a dozen articles myself, so I don't know how to tell by looking at a user name what kind of permissions they have. But even I know that there are special vested users like admins and former arbs such as yourself who have an almost bulletproof immunity from sanctions. If there are a high number of such special people on that page, it wouldn't surprise me in the least, as I have received emails from a number of ordinary non-admin users who are too intimidated or fearful of retribution to say anything publicly. If you read the discussion, it should be evident why it had to take place on meta instead of en.wiki.
On Tue, Sep 29, 2015 at 8:25 AM, Neotarf neotarf@gmail.com wrote:
Could you post a link to one or two of the discussions, and how they went down? I really need to read something like that right now.
On Mon, Sep 28, 2015 at 8:50 PM, Nathan nawrich@gmail.com wrote:
Hi Neotarf,
I'm not going to publicly post a list of people I know have been subject to harassment. I would say that its been a persistent complaint from most or all of the prominent female Wikipedians; if you can name a functionary, admin, arbitrator or Board member who is a woman, it is likely that she has been subject to sustained sexual harassment at some point during her Wikimedia tenure.
But you could certainly say there is some division in how victims of this type of harassment have reacted. Some small proportion have reacted in ways that contradict project policies and have had bad outcomes, but I don't think that is typical.
Once again this is an area which needs research and numbers, starting with looking at all the complaints and even mentions of harassment at WP:ANI and WP:Arbitration for say the last 5 years. If I wasn't busy catching up on my own projects, I'd help any of the researchers who have come by here or been mentioned. Those who have more time and really care SHOULD contact these people and get them to organize just such a project. I know this is a good project because the couple times I brought it up the harassers went nuts...
Finding public complaints to admins obviously more difficult and finding private complaints nearly impossible. But ANI is a place to start.
To say that everyone who has spoken out against their own personal harassment or that against another has been indeff'd obviously is not correct.
To say that three people who engaged in Gender Gap Task Force discussions and objected strongly to the organized disruption of that group by others were indeff'd would be true. Did they sometimes over-react to some of the nonsense, harassment and false accusations made by the organized group against the task force and themselves? Yes. But those doing these things were NOT punished while those who objected were indeff'd.
That's enough for most people to think that anyone who isn't a skilled politician who never loses their temper - and who has enough support from friendly admins - WILL get indeff'd if they speak out too loud, too proud or too often...
Also, I shouldn't complain about what the harassment policy is without at least offering an alternative here... may when I catch upon my own thing and recover from burnout...
On 9/29/2015 11:57 AM, Nathan wrote:
On Tue, Sep 29, 2015 at 8:25 AM, Neotarf <neotarf@gmail.com mailto:neotarf@gmail.com> wrote:
Could you post a link to one or two of the discussions, and how they went down? I really need to read something like that right now. On Mon, Sep 28, 2015 at 8:50 PM, Nathan <nawrich@gmail.com <mailto:nawrich@gmail.com>> wrote:Hi Neotarf,
I'm not going to publicly post a list of people I know have been subject to harassment. I would say that its been a persistent complaint from most or all of the prominent female Wikipedians; if you can name a functionary, admin, arbitrator or Board member who is a woman, it is likely that she has been subject to sustained sexual harassment at some point during her Wikimedia tenure.
But you could certainly say there is some division in how victims of this type of harassment have reacted. Some small proportion have reacted in ways that contradict project policies and have had bad outcomes, but I don't think that is typical.
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Hi All -
I wanted to take a quick second and introduce myself. My name is Francesca Tripodi and I'm working on my dissertation in Sociology/Media Studies. I'm looking specifically at participatory media spaces (Reality TV, Yik Yak, and Wikipedia) and a strong theme emerging in my cases are how various media technologies "silence" some in the community of users while making others visible. I look at harassment as a tool for silencing but also how other mechanisms are used to block voice. This issues of being "indeffed" for publicly objecting to sexual harassment is particularly interesting. I didn't know that was happening or even was "indeffed" was until just now!
That being said - If anyone would like to speak with me personally (outside of this thread!) regarding their experiences editing Wikipedia and how it relates to harassment or "blocking" I'd love the opportunity to speak with you. I have been conducting interviews using Google Hangout or Skype but I can also conduct by phone or in person if you're in the DC area. Interviews last approximately one hour and the content of the interviews are kept confidential.
I am not using any of the email content as data - I just enrolled in the listserve so I could learn more about the Gender Gap on Wikipedia and reach out to Wikipedians who might be interested in participating in my research. For those who might take concern, this project has been approved by the Institutional Review Board at the University of Virginia.
Sincerely - Francesca
A lot of online threats, including death/rape threats, aren't really worth taking seriously. They're just talk, rude-arse and not even remotely productive, but still just the sort of dumbarse talk some people try to do to bully folks. Blocking them is indeed reasonable, as they are unlikely to actually act on it anyway, and there isn't apt to be anything for the police to really act on either.
Mind you, if they give some indication of actually having the means required to pull it off, like by including the target's actual address and pictures of a bunch of guns they just bough or something crazy like that, that's another matter entirely, and may indeed be cause to go to the police. Personally I've not seen any of that, but it does happen from time to time some places.
On 26/09/15 20:07, rupert THURNER wrote:
risker you are joking? a death threat is a case for the police not for the wikimedia foundation. wikimedia foundation is not a para-military or para-police organization replacing standard legal systems, the wikimedia community is also not a community outside other legal systems, with special rules applying. the police has the means to deal with it professionally.
carol, if you get a death threat, why are you afraid of the police? you pay taxes and at the end of the day you are paying their salary, and are usually very welcoming?
rupert
On Sat, Sep 26, 2015 at 9:05 PM, Risker <risker.wp@gmail.com mailto:risker.wp@gmail.com> wrote:
The WMF may or may not help editors who are receiving death threats via their email systems - I'd venture to guess that in the majority of cases they're handled by admins or CUs or arbitrators by the expedient of blocking the accounts with email turned off. If you're saying you really don't want police involved, then I don't know what you'd expect the WMF to do over and above blocking the same accounts and the same IPs that can (and often are) blocked by volunteers. I do not suggest that harassment via email (up to and including serious death threats) is a minor matter, but that the "emergency@wikimedia.org <mailto:emergency@wikimedia.org>" is for threats of harm to self or others that are published onwiki where there is concern that police or other authorities should be informed because there is an imminent risk of harm. Keep in mind that that email address is staffed by a grand total of six people (the Community Advocacy team) to cover the entire world. Risker/Anne On 26 September 2015 at 13:59, Carol Moore dc <carolmooredc@verizon.net <mailto:carolmooredc@verizon.net>> wrote: I was referring to threats to kill someone that clearly come from a known Wikipedia handle or editor, or, as in my case, a person who is known because it's the same kind of message they have been known to send to various others many times before. In my case threats were sent through Wikimedia Foundation email and evidently that's what this person - and perhaps others - enjoys doing. At the very least advice to contact the Foundation also should cover such abuses. (Obviously if it's an anonymous person through another email system, it's a different issue. Though I believe the Foundation was happy to help Sitush when he was getting those kind of messages.) As an activist I'm reluctant to deal with authorities unless it is VERY real and imminent. Those who want to report it would assume their only recourse is to go straight to the police who then will be the ones going to the Foundation to sort it out. That is the specific issue I was addressing and the person who does that evidently is back to doing it, so perhaps others are doing it too and women are just quitting Wikipedia without telling anyone why. I wrote: On 9/26/2015 12:27 PM, Risker wrote: Neotarf is correct, it is the guideline to address suicide threats and similar threats of serious harm to self or others (e.g., "I'm going to go shoot up my school") - in other words, that guideline is intended to capture situations where there is a reason to contact police or similar authorities because of an imminent threat to safety. The person adding the link probably did not really read through the point of the page. Speaking personally, I'd be pretty offended if I complained that someone was harassing me and was linked to a page about reporting suicide threats. Note that one of the shortcuts is [[WP:SUICIDE]]. I have removed that as a "Main article" because it's not really about harassment. Risker/Anne On 26 September 2015 at 11:52, Neotarf <neotarf@gmail.com <mailto:neotarf@gmail.com> <mailto:neotarf@gmail.com <mailto:neotarf@gmail.com>>> wrote: @Carol Moore, I believe that link is about suicide threats. Did you mean to link to something else? On Thu, Sep 24, 2015 at 2:57 PM, Carol Moore dc <carolmooredc@verizon.net <mailto:carolmooredc@verizon.net> <mailto:carolmooredc@verizon.net <mailto:carolmooredc@verizon.net>>> wrote: Because of an offline discussion about the 1000 odd death threats I got directly through the Wikimedia Foundation email system and my failure to remember personally contacting them (as opposed to admins) about it, I decided to see if the Harassment article mentioned that option. I did a little research and found it was not til July 22, 2015 that the harassment article section on "threats" provided a link to the WP:Essay that specifically advises this! https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Wikipedia:Harassment&diff=672630056&oldid=672391122 Now why can't the threats section include that info? Certain some well-connected editors have learned how to work that angle with the foundation for even minor issues... There's a huge section on what to do about threats of legal action, but zilch on death threats. Pretty absurd... Safe space, NOT!!* Thanks... CM *Of course, there's a difference between legitimate safe space from actual direct insults or threats of harm and the absurd degree of hypersensitivity now a days where there are trigger warnings on any opinion that someone might disagree with and protests against opinions that just aren't politically correct enough... but don't get me started... A lot of articles about it lately have exposed the absurdities and hypocrisy of some individuals and groups. And I can understand the fear of some male wikipedians they will be exposed to the most extreme varieties. It also gives the most oppressive guys an excuse to label minor and legitimate demands for safe space as "extremist." ("You extremist, you want to mention contacting the Foundation on the Harassment page!!!") Glad I'm not in college! Or any "progressive" political groups any more. Especially now that I am finally free of having to be a "good girl" on Wikipedia and can engage in anti-establishment mockery and sarcasm in my writings/artistic endeavors without worrying about wikistalkers slamming me all over Wikipedia ;-) _______________________________________________ Gendergap mailing list Gendergap@lists.wikimedia.org <mailto:Gendergap@lists.wikimedia.org> <mailto:Gendergap@lists.wikimedia.org <mailto:Gendergap@lists.wikimedia.org>> To manage your subscription preferences, including unsubscribing, please visit: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/gendergap _______________________________________________ Gendergap mailing list Gendergap@lists.wikimedia.org <mailto:Gendergap@lists.wikimedia.org> <mailto:Gendergap@lists.wikimedia.org <mailto:Gendergap@lists.wikimedia.org>> To manage your subscription preferences, including unsubscribing, please visit: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/gendergap _______________________________________________ Gendergap mailing list Gendergap@lists.wikimedia.org <mailto:Gendergap@lists.wikimedia.org> To manage your subscription preferences, including unsubscribing, please visit: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/gendergap _______________________________________________ Gendergap mailing list Gendergap@lists.wikimedia.org <mailto:Gendergap@lists.wikimedia.org> To manage your subscription preferences, including unsubscribing, please visit: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/gendergap _______________________________________________ Gendergap mailing list Gendergap@lists.wikimedia.org <mailto:Gendergap@lists.wikimedia.org> To manage your subscription preferences, including unsubscribing, please visit: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/gendergap
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Ahh, the essay that keeps on giving *preen*.
George William Herbert Sent from my iPhone
On Sep 26, 2015, at 9:27 AM, Risker risker.wp@gmail.com wrote:
Neotarf is correct, it is the guideline to address suicide threats and similar threats of serious harm to self or others (e.g., "I'm going to go shoot up my school") - in other words, that guideline is intended to capture situations where there is a reason to contact police or similar authorities because of an imminent threat to safety. The person adding the link probably did not really read through the point of the page. Speaking personally, I'd be pretty offended if I complained that someone was harassing me and was linked to a page about reporting suicide threats. Note that one of the shortcuts is [[WP:SUICIDE]].
I have removed that as a "Main article" because it's not really about harassment.
Risker/Anne
On 26 September 2015 at 11:52, Neotarf neotarf@gmail.com wrote: @Carol Moore, I believe that link is about suicide threats. Did you mean to link to something else?
On Thu, Sep 24, 2015 at 2:57 PM, Carol Moore dc carolmooredc@verizon.net wrote: Because of an offline discussion about the 1000 odd death threats I got directly through the Wikimedia Foundation email system and my failure to remember personally contacting them (as opposed to admins) about it, I decided to see if the Harassment article mentioned that option.
I did a little research and found it was not til July 22, 2015 that the harassment article section on "threats" provided a link to the WP:Essay that specifically advises this!
https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Wikipedia:Harassment&diff=672...
Now why can't the threats section include that info? Certain some well-connected editors have learned how to work that angle with the foundation for even minor issues...
There's a huge section on what to do about threats of legal action, but zilch on death threats. Pretty absurd... Safe space, NOT!!*
Thanks...
CM
*Of course, there's a difference between legitimate safe space from actual direct insults or threats of harm and the absurd degree of hypersensitivity now a days where there are trigger warnings on any opinion that someone might disagree with and protests against opinions that just aren't politically correct enough... but don't get me started...
A lot of articles about it lately have exposed the absurdities and hypocrisy of some individuals and groups. And I can understand the fear of some male wikipedians they will be exposed to the most extreme varieties. It also gives the most oppressive guys an excuse to label minor and legitimate demands for safe space as "extremist." ("You extremist, you want to mention contacting the Foundation on the Harassment page!!!")
Glad I'm not in college! Or any "progressive" political groups any more. Especially now that I am finally free of having to be a "good girl" on Wikipedia and can engage in anti-establishment mockery and sarcasm in my writings/artistic endeavors without worrying about wikistalkers slamming me all over Wikipedia ;-)
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