More seriously; the idea that someone either volunteers themselves to enter an environment they find disturbing and uncomfortable, or they're actively contributing to it being disturbing and uncomfortable, is (frankly) bullshit. Katherine is not responsible for the failure of Commons to produce much beyond pictures of genitals. If they continue to do so, while she continues to refuse to get involved, it will still not be her responsibility.
Where I come from, we tend to take the attitude that people are inherently capable of change - that if people are contributing to an awkward, and uncomfortable, and narrowly-scoped environment, they can in fact, very occasionally, come to understand this and solve for it.
Now: it's true that groups can be aided in this by people from outside who understand the problem entering to help. But it does not follow that anyone from outside the environment who notes that there is a problem be /mandated to participate/ and shamed if they refuse.
On Sun, May 12, 2013 at 9:28 PM, Oliver Keyes ironholds@gmail.com wrote:
That sounds perfectly reasonable. In the same way: those Christians who didn't stick their head in the lion's mouth should be ashamed. I mean, yes, they'd have ended up decapitated, but they'd have been *part of the solution!* We just need a few more people to get nibbled on before the lions' teeth will be far too worn down to bite anyone else.
On Sun, May 12, 2013 at 9:23 PM, Russavia russavia.wikipedia@gmail.comwrote:
Fluff,
I can only say that with that in mind, you are not part of the solution, but part of the problem. This isn't an attack in anyway shape or form on yourself personally, and I hope you realise precisely what I mean by this.
That personal invite by myself will always stay open to you, and I'd be happy to show you the ropes around "my neck of the woods".
Cheers,
Russavia
On Mon, May 13, 2013 at 4:15 AM, Katherine Casey fluffernutter.wiki@gmail.com wrote:
Alas no, I'm not up to your challenge. I'm subject to quite enough aggression and strange sexualization of situations on enwp; I don't
have the
energy to dive headfirst into an even worse atmosphere of those things
on
Commons. I'm much more comfortable speaking here, in an environment of respect and support, than I would ever be there, in an environment
where my
right to my opinions would be challenged and I'd be shouting into a void while thinking that at any moment someone was going to ask me to show my "tits".
Not everyone has unlimited tolerance for doing things that make them
very
uncomfortable; as someone whose tolerance for that is perhaps lower than some other people's, my hope is that my voice here, where I am
comfortable
speaking, will be heard - as it seems to be, given this thread and the inroads that have been made on Commons as a result of it - and that my speaking here it will provide support to the people who are willing to
brave
that environment.
-Fluff
On Sun, May 12, 2013 at 4:04 PM, Russavia <russavia.wikipedia@gmail.com
wrote:
Hey Fluff,
Indeed we did have a conversation on IRC the other day. You and I may
not
agree on numerous things, and in many instances we have very similar
views
(but perhaps you just aren't aware of it), but one thing we surely can
agree
on is that by only commenting on this list is not having your voice
heard in
the place where it matters -- and that is on Commons.
I urged you the other day to come and join us on the project, noting
that
you don't have many contributions there (http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/Special:Contributions/Fluffernutter),
and
I am again urging you to come and join us.
Are you up for that challenge?
Cheers,
Russavia
On Mon, May 13, 2013 at 3:36 AM, Katherine Casey fluffernutter.wiki@gmail.com wrote:
Russavia, from the perspective of many people here, "blowing hot air"
on
Commons is the least likely to bring about change of any of the
options you
mention. I know you don't agree with that (you and I had quite a long
IRC
conversation the other day where you made that clear), but it is the
genuine
impression many, many of us have been left with after watching how discussions tend to go there.
-Fluff
Gendergap mailing list Gendergap@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/gendergap
Gendergap mailing list Gendergap@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/gendergap
Gendergap mailing list Gendergap@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/gendergap