on 2/3/11 11:02 AM, Ism Woonpton at woonpton@gmail.com wrote:
Hello. I see that most people in this discussion have given what looks like real names, even the women, which surprises the heck out of me. Before registering to edit Wikipedia, I had participated on internet forums of professional organizations for fifteen years, always using my real name, and never thought a thing of it, never had any reason to consider not using my real name; it simply wouldn't have occurred to me not to use my real name. But when I registered on Wikipedia, something, maybe a suggestion in the instructions for registering, I don't remember what, made me use a fake name, and I'm so glad I did. Although I have hardly edited Wikipedia in the three years I've been observing the project, as I was put off immediately by the attitudes and culture, I have been harassed offwiki by two banned users ( I had nothing to do with their banning; it just seems to amuse them to harass people they perceive as unwilling to fight back) and as a result of this unpleasant experience, the thought of anyone connected with Wikipedia ever finding out my real name is quite aversive to me. I am sorry I ever connected myself with Wikipedia at all, even in the tangential way I have been connected, and if anyone I knew was considering editing Wikipedia, (woman or man) I would warn them against it.
When I entered Wikipedia, I discovered a side of the internet I had never encountered before, and intend never to encounter again; it's a menacing and combative atmosphere that is extremely aversive to me. I recently read somewhere that Wikipedia regulars, as a rule, come from usenet or from gaming, where that kind of atmosphere is apparently an integral and desired part of the experience (I wouldn't know, having no experience with either), and have brought that atmosphere to Wikipedia. As long as that atmosphere characterizes Wikipedia, it is going to drive away anyone who doesn't thrive on that kind of pugnacious taunting get-the-enemy-before-he-gets-you kind of attitude, and I suspect a lot of women would be included in those who don't thrive in that kind of environment.
There have been two recent threads on the topic of gender participation on Jimbo Wales' talk page; the first was more interesting and productive, I thought, and warrants some attention; several women, including myself, responded to say that the reason most people don't edit Wikipedia probably isn't gender-specific and relates more to the culture and environment than to unfamiliarity with the technical aspects of editing (which was the initial premise of the thread, that women don't edit Wikipedia because the tech-y nature of editing is offputting to them).
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User_talk:Jimbo_Wales/Archive_70#Attracting_mor... female_editors
There was one comment from a woman which I found especially resonant with my own experience and which I think neatly sums up my problem: "IMHO, Female "techno-geeks" have the worst time of anyone here, I think! Competence combined with female character that asks instead of shoves seems to attract the harshest form of attack, even if we try to keep our gender unknown -- the style still comes through."
(link for context):
http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=User_talk%3AJimbo_Wales&action... rysubmit&diff=407753458&oldid=407753333
To introduce myself: I am a 70-year old retired statistician. I encountered a few (very few) instances of veiled sexism here and there in my career in a male-dominated field, but on the whole my gender was never an issue; I was treated with professional respect and comraderie and colleagueship, and have many continuing friendships with male colleagues. Never in my career did I encounter anything remotely like the kind of outright hostility and bullying that I have experienced on and off Wikipedia as the result of my participation, and I can't begin to tell you how insulting and offensive I have found it.
I think the emphasis in this discussion is rather misguided; why encourage more women to come to Wikipedia and be turned off and tell their friends to stay away, thereby increasing the gender gap rather than narrowing it? It would seem more helpful, if you really want to do something about the problem, to change the environment first. Since that's obviously never going to happen, it seems rather counterproductive to think up strategies to lure more women into this bad situation.
In three years of observing Wikipedia, I had never encountered Wikipe-tan; it's just another reason to be unimpressed with Wikipedia. It's a kind of adolescent-male culture that many mature people of either gender, expecting a professional project building an encyclopedia, would not feel comfortable in.
Woonpton
A great big thank you (with a standing ovation), Woonpton! I have been beating the Wikipedia culture reform drum for 4 year now. But the journey to the civil side has been like crossing a stream of slowly-drying concrete; with each step the going gets more difficult and resistant.
My work is in Clinical Psychology and Psychotherapy. In late 2006, I accepted a referral of an adolescent who had attempted suicide on two different occasions; the second attempt was nearly successful. The referring therapist was the third who had tried to reach this person; all had been unsuccessful.
After working almost daily with the person, I was able to persuade them to engage with me. What I learned startled me. The person related to me a period of taunting and abuse they had suffered on a website. That website turned out to be Wikipedia. What startled me most is that I had been a minor editor of Wikipedia since early in 2006, but had no idea of the Lists and other conversation sites that existed as a part of it. This is where my passion for this issue comes from. This is also why I take it so seriously.
The person is doing very well now, by the way, and is able to handle pretty much anything that comes their way. I'm proud of them.
The problem of abusive, combative, counter-productive behavior between (and among) persons in the Project is not going to be solved with new rules or policies - but by example. Change in this case can only come one person at a time. If you give them the climate, they will give you the culture.
If you find yourself being taunted by another, this may be helpful:
Learn your vulnerable spots - we all have them. They are like bruises on the body; when touched - we react. Learn that reaction. When communicating with someone, if you feel that reaction: Stop - Know what it is - Acknowledge it to yourself - Take a breath - and Stay on subject. Or, simply, don't respond. Remember: We teach people how to treat us.
Someone who truly wants to communicate with you will deliberately try to avoid any spot they think might be a bruise - especially if they have a similar one of their own.
I believe if we all take a pledge to stay focused on the issue being discussed; to direct our emotions at the substance of the message, and not at the person delivering it, the Project might not be so painful at times to work on.
If we all pledge to follow this, it will ultimately become the culture of the Project; and anyone deliberately attacking another person will simply not be responded to - or, ultimately, not tolerated.
Marc Riddell
Marc
Just be.