From: Ray Saintonge saintonge@telus.net Reply-To: English Wikipedia wikien-l@Wikipedia.org Date: Mon, 01 Jan 2007 17:37:32 -0800 To: English Wikipedia wikien-l@Wikipedia.org Subject: Re: [WikiEN-l] The boundaries of OR (contd)
Marc Riddell wrote:
From: Ray Saintonge
Marc Riddell wrote:
I admit I am also frustrated by the countless hours editors spend weeding out countless incidents of nonsensical, and at times malicious, vandalism. My background is sixties Berkeley - I am the antithesis of autocratic bullshit. Yet, I believe, some parameters must be set to achieve a goal. A protest without some order is merely chaos - and achieves nothing. And, ultimately, what or who you are protesting wins.
It seems like Mario Savio became discouraged and frustrated a long time ago. If a vandal's goal is to sow chaos he is accomplishing that very well.. Surely some vandals may be performing an act of protest, but I don't think that that tranche provides the really tenacious vandals who just get a thrill out of competing in a cat and mouse game.
Sticking to principles consistent with what the new left wanted in the 60s was not an easy task. Principles served on a plate of squalor can be very unappetizing. It's amazing how over the long run the establishment absorbs it all.
Mario Savio and I were close friends - and, emotionally, still are. He was frustrated every moment that I knew him - it was his fuel. But, he was never, never, discouraged.
No offense intended. As a person who is Savio's junior by only two months, that seems close enough to make us contemporaries. The general points in his famous speech did resonate well-beyond UC Berkeley. If I try to reflect on those times now all I get is questions.
Wikipedia, itself, is the protest.
Hmmm! While many valuable contributors could be seen as natural protesters, I wouldn't call the project itself a protest. I hope you are not judging things on the basis of the vandals and other objectionable sorts, because I certainly don't see them as forming the mainstream of what is happening. They certainly know how to make themselves very visible and annoying, but one would not judge a society by the antics of its mischievous kids.
What to me takes it beyond protest is that we do have many who are trying to make positive contributions without generating a lot of noise. Maybe, unlike the 1960s, some of us have given up the hope that existing institutions, like the universities, could be reformed, and are setting the groundwork for new institutions. The Rochdale College experiment may have been premature. It perhaps tried too much to play in the backyard of corporate structures. We sometimes give too much credit to those of our colleagues whose marvellous intentions are not matched by realistic evaluations of the opponent.
Ec
The analogy I was making in stating that Wikipedia is the protest was in reference to my previous statement that some parameters must be set to achieve a goal; that a protest without some order is merely chaos - and achieves nothing. All of this had to do with placing some restrictions on User identification. I had & have left the issue of vandals behind some time ago.
Marc
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