From: Ray Saintonge <saintonge(a)telus.net>
Reply-To: English Wikipedia <wikien-l(a)Wikipedia.org>
Date: Mon, 01 Jan 2007 17:37:32 -0800
To: English Wikipedia <wikien-l(a)Wikipedia.org>
Subject: Re: [WikiEN-l] The boundaries of OR (contd)
Marc Riddell wrote:
From: Ray
Saintonge
Marc Riddell wrote:
I admit I am also frustrated by the countless
hours editors spend weeding
out countless incidents of nonsensical, and at times malicious, vandalism.
My background is sixties Berkeley - I am the antithesis of autocratic
bullshit. Yet, I believe, some parameters must be set to achieve a goal. A
protest without some order is merely chaos - and achieves nothing. And,
ultimately, what or who you are protesting wins.
It seems like Mario Savio became discouraged and frustrated a long time
ago. If a vandal's goal is to sow chaos he is accomplishing that very
well.. Surely some vandals may be performing an act of protest, but I
don't think that that tranche provides the really tenacious vandals who
just get a thrill out of competing in a cat and mouse game.
Sticking to principles consistent with what the new left wanted in the
60s was not an easy task. Principles served on a plate of squalor can
be very unappetizing. It's amazing how over the long run the
establishment absorbs it all.
Mario Savio and I were close friends - and, emotionally, still are. He was
frustrated every moment that I knew him - it was his fuel. But, he was
never, never, discouraged.
No offense intended. As a person who is Savio's junior by only two
months, that seems close enough to make us contemporaries. The general
points in his famous speech did resonate well-beyond UC Berkeley. If I
try to reflect on those times now all I get is questions.
Wikipedia, itself, is the protest.
Hmmm! While many valuable contributors could be seen as natural
protesters, I wouldn't call the project itself a protest. I hope you
are not judging things on the basis of the vandals and other
objectionable sorts, because I certainly don't see them as forming the
mainstream of what is happening. They certainly know how to make
themselves very visible and annoying, but one would not judge a society
by the antics of its mischievous kids.
What to me takes it beyond protest is that we do have many who are
trying to make positive contributions without generating a lot of
noise. Maybe, unlike the 1960s, some of us have given up the hope that
existing institutions, like the universities, could be reformed, and are
setting the groundwork for new institutions. The Rochdale College
experiment may have been premature. It perhaps tried too much to play
in the backyard of corporate structures. We sometimes give too much
credit to those of our colleagues whose marvellous intentions are not
matched by realistic evaluations of the opponent.
Ec
The analogy I was making in stating that Wikipedia is the protest was in
reference to my previous statement that some parameters must be set to
achieve a goal; that a protest without some order is merely chaos - and
achieves nothing. All of this had to do with placing some restrictions on
User identification. I had & have left the issue of vandals behind some time
ago.
Marc
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