Really appreciate what you wrote here Markus. Thank you.
After doing a bunch of digging around and collecting questions on the
Discussion page of the proposed Grant, Finn Årup Nielsen (fnielsen) (Thank
you!) provided two examples of roughly what I believe this might look like,
which I am sharing here for anyone who hasn't seen it:
Person:
https://da.wikipedia.org/wiki/Svend_Auken
Company:
https://da.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bispebjerg_Hospital
Maybe I have comfort with editing template boxes, and assume this is a
minimal barrier, but seeing the possible implementation answered much of my
concerns. This does not seem to be a depreciation away from Wikipedia, I
don't think, like Authority Control was.
I still don't 100% understand how the interface is edited and wonder if
marking the Wikidata page with icons to note the source (i.e., Infobox,
Authority Control) but that might be overkill / unnecessary. (?) But from
these examples I will definitely revise my Endorsement.
Thanks again,
- Erika
*Erika Herzog*
Wikipedia *User:BrillLyle <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User:BrillLyle>*
On Wed, Aug 3, 2016 at 3:46 PM, Markus Kroetzsch <
markus.kroetzsch(a)tu-dresden.de> wrote:
Mh. Is this actually leading anywhere? I can see both
views, but there is
a danger that things are getting non-constructive here. A particular issue
in my view is playing the "Wikipedia-vs-Wikidata" card. I don't see things
in this way, and I hope most Wikipedia and Wikidata editors don't either.
Of course there are different interfaces and different pitfalls for each
system. Let's face it: both are far from perfect when it comes to UI.
People use them because they are extremely important projects, in spite --
not because -- of the UIs. I have also read about missing documentation on
how to do things. Again, I don't think either project really shines here.
There often is documentation if you know where to look, but if you just
come by the page and want to work, it is very difficult to find it. Things
could be much better.
Therefore, any approach that looks only at current editors (who already
have made a lot of effort to wrap their heads around one of the
not-always-intuitive processes and interfaces) is necessarily too limited.
Their tolerance to the "other" UI will be as low as anybody's (ask someone
on the street how nice they find either template editing or Wikidata input
forms -- you'll get similar views). At the same time, current users often
have a kind of Stockholm syndrome towards the UI they are used to. We have
to take their views very serious, but we must not build our sites only for
the people who already use them now.
The question therefore is not at all which of the current UIs is better,
but rather how both can be improved. For this list, this mainly leads to
the question how Wikidata can be improved. The practical insights gathered
with different editor groups around the world are useful here. The findings
need to be split into small, actionable units and prioritized. Then they
will be fixed.
For this to work, it is completely irrelevant if more people like one UI
or more people like the other. Since the UIs are doing completely different
things, we won't be able to replace one by the other anyway. All we can do
is to improve on our side. For this reason, any "vs"-themed discussion can
only be harmful, attracting trolls who love to chime in whenever there is
critique, and frustrate contributors who would rather like to get things
done than to argue.
As for the (little) project that started this discussion, I think it
should not be overrated in its scope. If people don't find the current UI
usable enough, they will not switch to use it until we have our processes
improved. But having other pieces of the puzzle in place will increase the
pressure on Wikidata to fix remaining pain points, and possibly do exactly
what Erika is asking for: make the voice of current Wikipedia editors
(even) more relevant to ongoing Wikidata development.
Peace,
Markus
On 03.08.2016 19:24, Federico Leva (Nemo) wrote:
Brill Lyle, 03/08/2016 19:20:
I am not saying editing Wiki Markup on Wikidata.
Is that what you are
describing?
No.
Nemo
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