Hi Jan and Leigh,

I think a Sandbox server with Moodle would be great, especially if it is provided so that one can start to build there real online courses.

I assume in the Finnish Wikiversity there is a lot of interest to "play" with Moodle the Wikiversity way.

Important with it would be to keep it as open as possible (the wiki way), so that all the course content and course related activities of the participants in the Moodle would be publicly available.

Do you think the Moodle in the Sandbox server could be provided this way, too?

- Teemu

On 27.1.2010, at 23.45, Leigh Blackall wrote:

James, do you think we can get university of Canberra in on this? I'm meeting with new ICT boss this afternoon.

...

On 28/01/2010 7:06 AM, "Jan Luca" jan@jans-seite.de wrote:

Hi,

Topic: Sandbox Server (http://beta.wikiversity.org/wiki/Sandbox_Server )

I have "speak" with Daniel of the German Wikimedia and he has said that the WMDE would sponsor us a server. The details and condition:

• We (respectively one of us) rent the server and we (the person) send the bill to the WMDE and then they repays the costs • The WMDE gives for first time max. 50 €/month • The server hosts only projects, software, etc. which are for the Wikimedia community • We must send every three month a report which include: o Current projects o How the community accepts the projects o Our ideas for the next three months (which extensions, software, etc. should be develop, which software should test, etc.)

If all is OK, we need one who rents the server and we must create a first report of our ideas for the next three months.

Daniel of the WMDE is in the mailing list, too. We can ask him if there are some questions.

Viele Grüße Jan Luca

---

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----------------------------------------------- Teemu Leinonen http://www.uiah.fi/~tleinone/ +358 50 351 6796 Media Lab http://mlab.uiah.fi University of Art and Design Helsinki -----------------------------------------------

Hi,

I list here some questions that I have heard in the chat:

1. Is it OK for the WMDE if the person who rent the server is in another country (e.g. USA) 2. Would the WMDE prepay for three months in the future (many provider sends bill for three next months)

Viele Grüße Jan Luca

-----Ursprüngliche Nachricht----- Von: wikiversity-l-bounces@lists.wikimedia.org [mailto:wikiversity-l-bounces@lists.wikimedia.org] Im Auftrag von Jan Luca Gesendet: Donnerstag, 28. Januar 2010 19:39 An: Mailing list for Wikiversity Cc: Tarmo Toikkanen; ville.venalainen@otavanopisto.fi Betreff: Re: [Wikiversity-l] Sandbox Server

Hi,

if we rent a virtual server with full root access, we can install many things, Moodle, too. At moment we only need someone who rent the server with the money of the WMDE and we must create a report with our ides for the first three months (install a webserver, MediaWiki, Moddle, etc.).

Viele Grüße Jan Luca Naumann

-----Ursprüngliche Nachricht----- Von: wikiversity-l-bounces@lists.wikimedia.org [mailto:wikiversity-l-bounces@lists.wikimedia.org] Im Auftrag von Teemu Leinonen Gesendet: Donnerstag, 28. Januar 2010 13:01 An: Mailing list for Wikiversity Cc: Tarmo Toikkanen; ville.venalainen@otavanopisto.fi Betreff: Re: [Wikiversity-l] Sandbox Server

Hi Jan and Leigh,

I think a Sandbox server with Moodle would be great, especially if it is provided so that one can start to build there real online courses.

I assume in the Finnish Wikiversity there is a lot of interest to "play" with Moodle the Wikiversity way.

Important with it would be to keep it as open as possible (the wiki way), so that all the course content and course related activities of the participants in the Moodle would be publicly available.

Do you think the Moodle in the Sandbox server could be provided this way, too?

- Teemu

On 27.1.2010, at 23.45, Leigh Blackall wrote:

James, do you think we can get university of Canberra in on this? I'm meeting with new ICT boss this afternoon.

...

On 28/01/2010 7:06 AM, "Jan Luca" jan@jans-seite.de wrote:

Hi,

Topic: Sandbox Server (http://beta.wikiversity.org/wiki/Sandbox_Server )

I have "speak" with Daniel of the German Wikimedia and he has said that the WMDE would sponsor us a server. The details and condition:

• We (respectively one of us) rent the server and we (the person) send the bill to the WMDE and then they repays the costs • The WMDE gives for first time max. 50 €/month • The server hosts only projects, software, etc. which are for the Wikimedia community • We must send every three month a report which include: o Current projects o How the community accepts the projects o Our ideas for the next three months (which extensions, software, etc. should be develop, which software should test, etc.)

If all is OK, we need one who rents the server and we must create a first report of our ideas for the next three months.

Daniel of the WMDE is in the mailing list, too. We can ask him if there are some questions.

Viele Grüße Jan Luca

---

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---

Wikiversity-l mailing list Wikiversity-l@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikiversity-l

----------------------------------------------- Teemu Leinonen http://www.uiah.fi/~tleinone/ +358 50 351 6796 Media Lab http://mlab.uiah.fi University of Art and Design Helsinki -----------------------------------------------

_______________________________________________ Wikiversity-l mailing list Wikiversity-l@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikiversity-l

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Jan Luca schrieb:

Hi,

I list here some questions that I have heard in the chat:

1. Is it OK for the WMDE if the person who rent the server is in another country (e.g. USA)

Money questions are always for the ED, but as far as I know, this should be no problem. will ask.

2. Would the WMDE prepay for three months in the future (many provider sends bill for three next months)

Again, Pavel has to decide, but I suppose it works like this: we reimburse you for whatever you pay - if you pay 3 months in advance, you get that money back from WMDE. You'd have to pay it first, but you don#t have to wait 3 months to get it back.

-- daniel

Hi Juan

Juan de Vojníkov schrieb:

Hi,

If we are talking about billing, I would say that cheapest way is to rent a server for one or 2 years. So would it be a problem for WMDE to offer us support for one year?

Can you show me the different offers? How much cheaper would it be to rent for 1 year in advance, or even for 2?

Again, this is for Pavel to decide, but the larget the advance commitment, the greater the reluctance. I imagine that this would get easier once we see the project actually taking off. We have, err, mixed experiences with this kind of thing.

Also to send a reports every 3 month means the reports will be very simillar.

No problem. The point of the reports is to track activity and progress. We are liable to our donors, we have to document that we kame good use of the money the give us.

And one more comment from me. If I analyze conditions: *The server hosts only projects, software, etc. which are for the Wikimedia community - hope that WMDE understand, that Wikiversity is a place to host different communities of learners and teachers. It means, there might be group of students from different schools etc. using Wikiversity to fulfill their real life education goals within our projects. So my question would be if these are understand as Wikimedia community and if they can also operate on SS?

Heh, more policy questions - I'm the tech guy :P AS far as I understand, it would be fine to do anything there that is compatible with the goals and mission of wikimedia in general and wikiversity specifically. So, I suppose the projects should revolve about sharing knowledge, i.e. free content and open access. But they don't have to be limited to the actual wiki community.

basically, this requirement is to make sure that folks don't run a quake server or a spam relay there. So, how about this:

You come up with a mission statment and general rules for projects, and WMDE signs off on it.

o Our ideas for the next three months (which extensions, software, etc. should be develop, which software should test, etc.) - this might be hard to say, but as I commented before, Wikiversity core community is quite small. So every 3 month the report will be very similar. And if well stay with the original idea that SS is open to all Wikiversity participants in all languages with some core administrators, I think it might be difficult to say, what for example is this or that person planning to deploy next month.

Well, it should be possible to come up with a plan. If you don't have any idea what you want to do, why start? So I suppose you do have some ideas. Just write them down!

It's not a requirement that you stick to the plan. We just want to know what you want to do, and what is actually happening. That's all. If the report is very similar every time - well, I'd hope that there's at least some progress in development and deployment, maybe some figures like number of users, of tools, of page views, etc.

The report doesn't need to be entertaining, boring is fine with us :)

-- daniel

Is this discussion taking place on the Wiki somewhere too?

2010/1/31 Juan de Vojníkov juandevojnikov@gmail.com

Ah,

thanks for replies Daniel. Now its clear to me.

Juan

2010/1/30 Daniel Kinzler daniel@brightbyte.de

Hi Juan

...

Juan de Vojníkov schrieb:

...

Hi,

If we are talking about billing, I would say that cheapest way is to

rent a

...

server for one or 2 years. So would it be a problem for WMDE to offer us support for one year?

Can you show me the different offers? How much cheaper would it be to rent for 1 year in advance, or even for 2?

Again, this is for Pavel to decide, but the larget the advance commitment, the greater the reluctance. I imagine that this would get easier once we see the project actually taking off. We have, err, mixed experiences with this kind of thing.

...

Also to send a reports every 3 month means the reports will be very simillar.

No problem. The point of the reports is to track activity and progress. We are liable to our donors, we have to document that we kame good use of the money the give us.

...

And one more comment from me. If I analyze conditions: *The server hosts

only

...

projects, software, etc. which are for the Wikimedia community - hope

that

...

WMDE understand, that Wikiversity is a place to host different

communities of

...

learners and teachers. It means, there might be group of students from different schools etc. using Wikiversity to fulfill their real life

education

...

goals within our projects. So my question would be if these are

understand

...

as Wikimedia community and if they can also operate on SS?

Heh, more policy questions - I'm the tech guy :P AS far as I understand, it would be fine to do anything there that is compatible with the goals and mission of wikimedia in general and wikiversity specifically. So, I suppose the projects should revolve about sharing knowledge, i.e. free content and open access. But they don't have to be limited to the actual wiki community.

basically, this requirement is to make sure that folks don't run a quake server or a spam relay there. So, how about this:

You come up with a mission statment and general rules for projects, and WMDE signs off on it.

...

o Our ideas for the next three months (which extensions, software, etc. should be develop, which software should test, etc.) - this might be

hard to

...

say, but as I commented before, Wikiversity core community is quite

small. So

...

every 3 month the report will be very similar. And if well stay with

the

...

original idea that SS is open to all Wikiversity participants in all languages with some core administrators, I think it might be difficult

to

...

say, what for example is this or that person planning to deploy next

month.

Well, it should be possible to come up with a plan. If you don't have any idea what you want to do, why start? So I suppose you do have some ideas. Just write them down!

It's not a requirement that you stick to the plan. We just want to know what you want to do, and what is actually happening. That's all. If the report is very similar every time - well, I'd hope that there's at least some progress in development and deployment, maybe some figures like number of users, of tools, of page views, etc.

The report doesn't need to be entertaining, boring is fine with us :)

-- daniel

---

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---

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Juan de Vojníkov schrieb:

Hi Leigh,

yes, there is a page on Wikiversity Beta: http://beta.wikiversity.org/wiki/Sandbox_Server

Left some comments there.

-- daniel

Hi,

the activity on the project is very low. I think we should do something or the "new" sandbox server ends like the "old".

Best regards, Jan

-----Ursprüngliche Nachricht----- Von: wikiversity-l-bounces@lists.wikimedia.org [mailto:wikiversity-l-bounces@lists.wikimedia.org] Im Auftrag von Jan Luca Gesendet: Montag, 8. Februar 2010 17:20 An: 'Mailing list for Wikiversity' Betreff: Re: [Wikiversity-l] Sandbox Server

Hi,

I have create a first report on the wiki [1].

Viele Grüße Jan

[1] http://beta.wikiversity.org/wiki/Sandbox_Server#The_Report

-----Ursprüngliche Nachricht----- Von: wikiversity-l-bounces@lists.wikimedia.org [mailto:wikiversity-l-bounces@lists.wikimedia.org] Im Auftrag von Daniel Kinzler Gesendet: Montag, 1. Februar 2010 11:39 An: Mailing list for Wikiversity Betreff: Re: [Wikiversity-l] Sandbox Server

Juan de Vojníkov schrieb:

Hi Leigh,

yes, there is a page on Wikiversity Beta: http://beta.wikiversity.org/wiki/Sandbox_Server

Left some comments there.

-- daniel

_______________________________________________ Wikiversity-l mailing list Wikiversity-l@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikiversity-l

_______________________________________________ Wikiversity-l mailing list Wikiversity-l@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikiversity-l

Hi,

the exodus refers to the en.wv. On German there is no exodus (French and Co. I have no information).

Maybe some other Wikiversityer can say something to this topic so we can see if there is interest.

Best regards,

Jan

Von: wikiversity-l-bounces@lists.wikimedia.org [mailto:wikiversity-l-bounces@lists.wikimedia.org] Im Auftrag von Juan de Vojníkov Gesendet: Mittwoch, 12. Mai 2010 08:31 An: Mailing list for Wikiversity Betreff: Re: [Wikiversity-l] Sandbox Server

Well,

my activity have dicreased, because there was other participant offering the help, but I havent understood, what he is talking about. So I left the issue until, he will come up with something.

Juan PS: Well, I am not sure if in the situation, there is an exodus from the wv, there will be an interest in Sandbox Server any more.

2010/5/12 Jan Luca jan@jans-seite.de

Hi,

the activity on the project is very low. I think we should do something or the "new" sandbox server ends like the "old".

Best regards, Jan

-----Ursprüngliche Nachricht----- Von: wikiversity-l-bounces@lists.wikimedia.org

[mailto:wikiversity-l-bounces@lists.wikimedia.org] Im Auftrag von Jan Luca Gesendet: Montag, 8. Februar 2010 17:20

An: 'Mailing list for Wikiversity' Betreff: Re: [Wikiversity-l] Sandbox Server

Hi,

I have create a first report on the wiki [1].

Viele Grüße Jan

[1] http://beta.wikiversity.org/wiki/Sandbox_Server#The_Report

-----Ursprüngliche Nachricht----- Von: wikiversity-l-bounces@lists.wikimedia.org [mailto:wikiversity-l-bounces@lists.wikimedia.org] Im Auftrag von Daniel Kinzler Gesendet: Montag, 1. Februar 2010 11:39 An: Mailing list for Wikiversity Betreff: Re: [Wikiversity-l] Sandbox Server

Juan de Vojníkov schrieb:

Hi Leigh,

yes, there is a page on Wikiversity Beta: http://beta.wikiversity.org/wiki/Sandbox_Server

Left some comments there.

-- daniel

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Hi,

the main discussion page is < http://beta.wikiversity.org/wiki/Sandbox_Server http://beta.wikiversity.org/wiki/Sandbox_Server%3E. I don’t know that some else is something about this.

The actual status is that we have a offer from the WMDE to pay for a server under 50 €. Someone from us rent a server and send the bill the WMDE which pay it back. The condition is that we send every three month a report about current project, their progress. The project should have a project description so the WMDE can see what the projects do.

Now we need some persons who write down their project (please see here: http://beta.wikiversity.org/wiki/Sandbox_Server#Projects). We also need someone who rents a server.

In the new server we should have more than one root (=admin). The only weak point is that the person who rents the server gives out.

Best regards,

Jan

Von: wikiversity-l-bounces@lists.wikimedia.org [mailto:wikiversity-l-bounces@lists.wikimedia.org] Im Auftrag von Cormac Lawler Gesendet: Mittwoch, 12. Mai 2010 16:34 An: Mailing list for Wikiversity Betreff: Re: [Wikiversity-l] Sandbox Server

I haven't been following recent events so closely - I know some en.wv participants have been participating in another project - but is it fair to call it an "exodus"?

In any case, I definitely think we should pursue with a sandbox server, engage people to administer it, and discuss what functionalities it might have. Is this the most recent discussion/workspace? http://beta.wikiversity.org/wiki/Sandbox_Server Has there been work elsewhere relating to the new sandbox server?

Jan, thanks for your enthusiasm here. As someone who has been closely involved in this so far, what do you think we need in order to get this up and running? For those who were involved in the 'old' server, what can we learn from that experience to make this one better?

Cormac

2010/5/12 Jan Luca jan@jans-seite.de

Hi,

the exodus refers to the en.wv. On German there is no exodus (French and Co. I have no information).

Maybe some other Wikiversityer can say something to this topic so we can see if there is interest.

Best regards,

Jan

Von: wikiversity-l-bounces@lists.wikimedia.org [mailto:wikiversity-l-bounces@lists.wikimedia.org] Im Auftrag von Juan de Vojníkov Gesendet: Mittwoch, 12. Mai 2010 08:31

An: Mailing list for Wikiversity Betreff: Re: [Wikiversity-l] Sandbox Server

Well,

my activity have dicreased, because there was other participant offering the help, but I havent understood, what he is talking about. So I left the issue until, he will come up with something.

Juan PS: Well, I am not sure if in the situation, there is an exodus from the wv, there will be an interest in Sandbox Server any more.

2010/5/12 Jan Luca jan@jans-seite.de

Hi,

the activity on the project is very low. I think we should do something or the "new" sandbox server ends like the "old".

Best regards, Jan

-----Ursprüngliche Nachricht----- Von: wikiversity-l-bounces@lists.wikimedia.org

[mailto:wikiversity-l-bounces@lists.wikimedia.org] Im Auftrag von Jan Luca Gesendet: Montag, 8. Februar 2010 17:20

An: 'Mailing list for Wikiversity' Betreff: Re: [Wikiversity-l] Sandbox Server

Hi,

I have create a first report on the wiki [1].

Viele Grüße Jan

[1] http://beta.wikiversity.org/wiki/Sandbox_Server#The_Report

-----Ursprüngliche Nachricht----- Von: wikiversity-l-bounces@lists.wikimedia.org [mailto:wikiversity-l-bounces@lists.wikimedia.org] Im Auftrag von Daniel Kinzler Gesendet: Montag, 1. Februar 2010 11:39 An: Mailing list for Wikiversity Betreff: Re: [Wikiversity-l] Sandbox Server

Juan de Vojníkov schrieb:

Hi Leigh,

yes, there is a page on Wikiversity Beta: http://beta.wikiversity.org/wiki/Sandbox_Server

Left some comments there.

-- daniel

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Hi,

we rent the server and the WMDE supports the project until 50 €. The project descriptions and the report are for the WMDE to see what we do.

We select our roots internally because we rent the server. All project should have room on the server. Normally the projects don’t need admin access to the server so the users of the project don’t need to have tech-knowledge (e.g. the MediaWiki project user need only some knowledge about MediaWiki). The description should be in English so everybody can read, every other language is nice for their native speakers but not necessary.

The potential of this server is that we can develop and test new methods for Wikiversity and Wikimedia. Every user can get some space for hosting files. We can install other education software like Moodle. We can set up an environment for direct teaching and learning. At first we should start with a small server and if there is enough acceptance we can move to a bigger one.

But at moment we haven’t found anyone who rents the server. If there are volunteers that would be nice.

Best regards,

Jan

Von: wikiversity-l-bounces@lists.wikimedia.org [mailto:wikiversity-l-bounces@lists.wikimedia.org] Im Auftrag von Cormac Lawler Gesendet: Donnerstag, 13. Mai 2010 12:47 An: Mailing list for Wikiversity Betreff: Re: [Wikiversity-l] Sandbox Server

Thanks Jan - just some points of clarification...

2010/5/13 Jan Luca jan@jans-seite.de

The actual status is that we have a offer from the WMDE to pay for a server under 50 €. Someone from us rent a server and send the bill the WMDE which pay it back. The condition is that we send every three month a report about current project, their progress. The project should have a project description so the WMDE can see what the projects do.

So, is the €50 limit a monthly bill for server rental, or an up-front total cost of something?

Now we need some persons who write down their project (please see here: http://beta.wikiversity.org/wiki/Sandbox_Server#Projects). We also need someone who rents a server.

Ok. So, I think the Mediawiki project you have proposed looks good - do you need help in writing this up? (Does writing up need to be in English or German or both?) Are you, or anyone else on the list, prepared to rent the server?

In the new server we should have more than one root (=admin). The only weak point is that the person who rents the server gives out.

So, are WMDE prepared to host several projects on this server; do they give root/admin access only to those projects they have approved?

Personally speaking, I am not tech-savvy enough to administer such a project, nor do I even know the full potential of what a server would offer us. I would appreciate having a broader discussion here about what we *could* do with a server, and let that help us decide what we should, and will, do. However, if we have a clear project to start with, then please don't let this discussion hold you back from getting started. :-)

Cormac

So, is the €50 limit a monthly bill for server rental, or an up-front total cost of something?

This is monthly, for server rental. If a 2 or max 3 month commitment is required, WMDE would guarantee the cost for that amount of time.

To Reiterate what Jan Luca said: All that is needed is a) some people saying what they plan to do and b) people telling us regularly what they have actually been doing, so we know how the server is being used. So far, no one appears to be willing to do that.

Daniel Kinzler Wikimedia Deutschland

Hi,

100 $ this would be nice ;-). But 50 € is at moment 1.26 * 50 = 63 $ (http://finance.yahoo.com/q?s=EURUSD=X)

About the “renter”: The renter is the “root of roots” and has the responsibility for the report but I think this work could be broken between all roots (every root observes some project and make the report for them) so not only one has all the work.

The a) on your mail is something for a new project. You are free to add anything :-)

Best regards,

Jan

Von: wikiversity-l-bounces@lists.wikimedia.org [mailto:wikiversity-l-bounces@lists.wikimedia.org] Im Auftrag von Gerald A Gesendet: Donnerstag, 13. Mai 2010 15:27 An: Mailing list for Wikiversity Betreff: Re: [Wikiversity-l] Sandbox Server

Hi Daniel,

On Thu, May 13, 2010 at 9:00 AM, Daniel Kinzler daniel@brightbyte.de wrote:

So, is the €50 limit a monthly bill for server rental, or an up-front total cost of something?

This is monthly, for server rental. If a 2 or max 3 month commitment is required, WMDE would guarantee the cost for that amount of time.

Wow, 50eu is about $100 if my memory serves. Let me say thank you for

the offer.

Now, it's been a few months since this last was discussed. Are there any restrictions

on where/from who the server is rented? (Does it have to be in DE/EU, does it have

to be managed, does it have to be a single server?) I'm just looking at what might

be possible.

To Reiterate what Jan Luca said: All that is needed is a) some people saying what they plan to do and b) people telling us regularly what they have actually been doing, so we know how the server is being used. So far, no one appears to be willing to do that.

a) Wiki Campus Radio, and experiments with Voice and Voice Products.

I was involved in a number of Wiki Campus Radio experiments, and facilitated the sessions and the raw capture of the voice. Other participants edited them, and they were available in various formats to listen to. As the hardware/software we were using was on loan, some possibilities for on-demand capture/listening weren't there.

As for b), would a "formal report" be required, or would a summary (maybe with more details) suffice? How often would be considered "regular"?

Now we have one project listed. I have others in mind, but I'd like to see this one launched before adding to the pile.

Thanks,

Gerald

Hi again,

2010/5/13 Jan Luca jan@jans-seite.de

100 $ this would be nice ;-). But 50 € is at moment 1.26 * 50 = 63 $ ( http://finance.yahoo.com/q?s=EURUSD=X)

Be glad I'm not in Currency Exchange :P. It's still a generous offer, though. I'm guessing that Daniel is the person for some of my other questions?

About the “renter”: The renter is the “root of roots” and has the responsibility for the report but I think this work could be broken between all roots (every root observes some project and make the report for them) so not only one has all the work.

I'm ok with co-ordinating the report. I think it'll be a part of the process ... you have to write a (small) proposal to get your project on to the sandbox, and to keep the account "active", you'll have to provide updates to what is going on. I'm hoping the report can be quarterly, rather then monthly, but we'll see what works best.

The a) on your mail is something for a new project. You are free to add anything :-)

Well, my (a) is actually an old project which was part of the original idea for a sandbox. I wrote the original outline, and had lots of help and guidance from various people (all of whom I'm grateful to). There was another generation or two of "sandbox servers", but I had gotten busy and wasn't too involved with them. (We even had hope at one time to get commercial sponsorship -- but that fell through).

Thanks, Gerald.

Would be a problem to install the "Widgets" media wiki extension?

On 14/05/2010 7:18 AM, "Daniel Kinzler" daniel@brightbyte.de wrote:

Hi Gerald, hi Cormac, hi list

To clarify my position in this: I'm Wikimedia germany's tech guy, and your main contact for the sandbox server. Anything involving policy or money will have to be cleared by our ED, Pavel Richter. At the moment I'm just repeating what I had cleared with him before.

Gerald A wrote:

Now, it's been a few months since this last was discussed. Are there any restr...

It doesn't matter where the server is located. WMDE offers to reimburse the person paying for the server. We will not assume any responsibility for its operation, or the projects running on it, or the content on the machine.

I guess some rather exotic locations would be a bit tricky, slow or expensive for transferring money. Other than that, I see no limits.

a) Wiki Campus Radio, and experiments with Voice and Voice Products. I was involved in a number...

The money question is, as always: how does wikiversity (or any wikimedia project) benefit from this project? And how does the project benefit from the sandbox server?

As for b), would a "formal report" be required, or would a summary (maybe with more details) su...

Monthly would be good. No big deal if you miss a month every now and then. Doesn't need to be formal, just an informative sentence or two. We just want to know what's happening.

Now we have one project listed. I have others in mind, but I'd like to see this one launched be...

No, please add all projects you are willing to take care of. It doesn't make sense to rent a server for a single project anyway.

Cormac asked:

I would guess that the person renting the server doesn't necessarily need

to

be involved in the ...

I would like to have a dedicated contact person for the sandbox server. This person should take care that WMDE gets a monthly report about which projects are active on the server, which are idle or have died, etc. A sentence or two per project is sufficient. Who writes the report, how it is compiled, I don't care, I just don#t want to have to deal with 6 people every month about reporting.

For practical reasons, it would probably be handy if my context person was also the person renting the server - but this is not absolutely neccessary.

HTH

daniel

_______________________________________________ Wikiversity-l mailing list Wikiversity-l@lists.wiki...

Hi,

On Fri, May 14, 2010 at 5:07 AM, Daniel Kinzler daniel@brightbyte.dewrote:

Leigh Blackall schrieb:

...

Would be a problem to install the "Widgets" media wiki extension?

That's for for your local admin to decide. WMDE will not *run* that server, we just help with financing it. What gets on the server, how you keep it secure, which projects are approved and who gets access is entirely up to you.

All we require is a number of projects and people committed to taking care of them, so we know what the box will be used for. And a regular report, so we know it's still being used to its original purpose - that is, projects that somehow benefit wikiversity.

I think Leigh is asking if we can install arbitrary extensions for Mediawiki on the sandbox server.

I think that would be a wonderful project. Originally, I saw the Sandbox server as somewhere CS students could play to get Programming skills, and even to perhaps hack on Mediawiki a bit. We'll see if that might happen, but I think a testing ground for Mediawiki and it's extensions would be a great project. It just needs a project leader, and someone who is technical to help out. Should we put you down as a potential project lead, Leigh? :)

As a side note: glaring security problems may make the sandbox server

*harmful* to wikimedia. That would be a reason to discontinue the funding. We trust you to keep it sane.

Let me say something here -- I don't think "glaring" security problems are acceptable. As a seasoned admin, I can't say an experimental server will be 100% problem free, but project leaders should be made aware we expect them to take reasonable measures to make sure their projects are secure, and any found or reported to be insecure can be suspended without notice. We want to encourage innovation, but with security somewhere in the picture.

Thanks, Gerald

Hi,

I have add some new project: http://beta.wikiversity.org/wiki/Sandbox_Server#Projects

Best regards,

Jan

Von: wikiversity-l-bounces@lists.wikimedia.org [mailto:wikiversity-l-bounces@lists.wikimedia.org] Im Auftrag von Jan Luca Gesendet: Freitag, 14. Mai 2010 16:23 An: 'Mailing list for Wikiversity' Betreff: Re: [Wikiversity-l] Sandbox Server

Hi,

there is already a project for MediaWiki: http://beta.wikiversity.org/wiki/Sandbox_Server/Project/MediaWiki. I started this project for testing (and update) old extensions and develop new extensions. If you (Leigh) want to help there you are free to add you to the list on the project page.

Best regards,

Jan

Von: wikiversity-l-bounces@lists.wikimedia.org [mailto:wikiversity-l-bounces@lists.wikimedia.org] Im Auftrag von Gerald A Gesendet: Freitag, 14. Mai 2010 15:44 An: Mailing list for Wikiversity Betreff: Re: [Wikiversity-l] Sandbox Server

Hi,

On Fri, May 14, 2010 at 5:07 AM, Daniel Kinzler daniel@brightbyte.de wrote:

Leigh Blackall schrieb:

Would be a problem to install the "Widgets" media wiki extension?

That's for for your local admin to decide. WMDE will not *run* that server, we just help with financing it. What gets on the server, how you keep it secure, which projects are approved and who gets access is entirely up to you.

All we require is a number of projects and people committed to taking care of them, so we know what the box will be used for. And a regular report, so we know it's still being used to its original purpose - that is, projects that somehow benefit wikiversity.

I think Leigh is asking if we can install arbitrary extensions for Mediawiki on the sandbox server.

I think that would be a wonderful project. Originally, I saw the Sandbox server as somewhere CS students could play to get Programming skills, and even to perhaps hack on Mediawiki a bit. We'll see if that might happen, but I think a testing ground for Mediawiki and it's extensions would be a great project. It just needs a project leader, and someone who is technical to help out. Should we put you down as a potential project lead, Leigh? :)

As a side note: glaring security problems may make the sandbox server *harmful* to wikimedia. That would be a reason to discontinue the funding. We trust you to keep it sane.

Let me say something here -- I don't think "glaring" security problems are acceptable. As a seasoned admin, I can't say an experimental server will be 100% problem free, but project leaders should be made aware we expect them to take reasonable measures to make sure their projects are secure, and any found or reported to be insecure can be suspended without notice. We want to encourage innovation, but with security somewhere in the picture.

Thanks,

Gerald

Hi Cormac,

2010/5/14 Cormac Lawler cormaggio@gmail.com

Has Jan not offered to take the lead on the Mediawiki project? ( http://beta.wikiversity.org/wiki/Sandbox_Server/Project/MediaWiki) A question that comes to mind here: if, say, Leigh and Jan were both willing to take the lead on this project, would it be possible to have two root admins for an individual project?

I think we can have multiple people on a project, but there should be one "leader". To keep things flexible, the leader doesn't have to be technical, but the project should have a tech person of some kind. I'd prefer to deal with one (or possibly 2) people per project, but we can keep this informal for now and see how it goes. I'm not sure MediaWiki needs "root", although I do want another admin with root. Projects should have ability to have full access to what they need, but not all projects will require full root to have complete access.

All that said, I haven't read all of the subpages and proposals in detail, so I didn't realize that Leigh's request was similar to Jan. If they want to work together on the same install, have two installs they manage together or two separate installs -- they are all possibilities.

I'd also like to say, it's great to see you again Gerald. Thanks so much for

joining in here with such enthusiasm. :-)

Nice to see you again too, Cormac. Well, the original Sandbox Server was something I lobbied a lot for. I still believe in the concept, and I'd like to see it work, as I do see the far-reaching benefits.

Thanks, Gerald.

Hi Jan,

2010/5/14 Jan Luca jan@jans-seite.de

I have already written on the project page ( http://beta.wikiversity.org/wiki/Sandbox_Server#Root) that I would be a “general” root (not only for a project). Under “general” root I mean someone who configs the server, create user, add new project and so on.

I think we have 2 "General" admins, then. From your e-mail, I think you are in Europe (DE?) and hopefully awake during the EU day. I'm in North America, and usually awake during the day. :) It would be nice to have another admin, possibly in Asia/AU, to help, or just as a backup, but I think we can proceed with 2 to start.

I've added my info to the section above. Are there any DE projects that are candidates for the server, other then the one earlier in this thread? It would be nice to have one or two projects where you or I aren't the admins. :)

Thanks, Gerald.

Hi Leigh,

to help in a project you must not have technical knowledge. It would be nice if you join in the MediaWiki project http://beta.wikiversity.org/wiki/Sandbox_Server/Project/MediaWiki.

Best regards,

Jan

Von: wikiversity-l-bounces@lists.wikimedia.org [mailto:wikiversity-l-bounces@lists.wikimedia.org] Im Auftrag von Leigh Blackall Gesendet: Samstag, 15. Mai 2010 11:06 An: Gerald A Cc: Mailing list for Wikiversity Betreff: Re: [Wikiversity-l] Sandbox Server

I think a testing ground for Mediawiki and it's extensions would be a great project. It just needs a project leader, and someone who is technical to help out. Should we put you down as a potential project lead, Leigh? :)

I'm not technical enough Gerald, but if the Widgets extension was on there, I'd test it to within an inch of its life :)

On Fri, May 14, 2010 at 11:44 PM, Gerald A geraldablists@gmail.com wrote:

Hi,

On Fri, May 14, 2010 at 5:07 AM, Daniel Kinzler daniel@brightbyte.de wrote:

Leigh Blackall schrieb:

Would be a problem to install the "Widgets" media wiki extension?

That's for for your local admin to decide. WMDE will not *run* that server, we just help with financing it. What gets on the server, how you keep it secure, which projects are approved and who gets access is entirely up to you.

All we require is a number of projects and people committed to taking care of them, so we know what the box will be used for. And a regular report, so we know it's still being used to its original purpose - that is, projects that somehow benefit wikiversity.

I think Leigh is asking if we can install arbitrary extensions for Mediawiki on the sandbox server.

I think that would be a wonderful project. Originally, I saw the Sandbox server as somewhere CS students could play to get Programming skills, and even to perhaps hack on Mediawiki a bit. We'll see if that might happen, but I think a testing ground for Mediawiki and it's extensions would be a great project. It just needs a project leader, and someone who is technical to help out. Should we put you down as a potential project lead, Leigh? :)

As a side note: glaring security problems may make the sandbox server *harmful* to wikimedia. That would be a reason to discontinue the funding. We trust you to keep it sane.

Let me say something here -- I don't think "glaring" security problems are acceptable. As a seasoned admin, I can't say an experimental server will be 100% problem free, but project leaders should be made aware we expect them to take reasonable measures to make sure their projects are secure, and any found or reported to be insecure can be suspended without notice. We want to encourage innovation, but with security somewhere in the picture.

Thanks,

Gerald

Hi,

here two of my ideaa:

1. Website: The main website (e.g. www.sandbox-server.org ) contain general information, the information how to get an account/project, a link to a list of the projects/users and a "Thank you" for WMDE. The projects are under the project.<server name> and accessible per /~<project name> (userdir in Apache). The user pages (for own files and so on) are similar to the project page accessible per user.<server name>/~<user name>.

There should be a config interface, too. I think the address should be https://config.<server name>.

2. Software: The basic software should be Apache, PHP (maybe PHP 6.0 too for testing), MySQL and Perl. I think for security should PHP use fastcgi with suexec to run in Apache so the scripts are run as the owner. Fastcgi should give some performance.

What do you mean?

Best regards,

Jan

Hi,

I would use a Linux like Debian because I have no experience in BSD and I think some others, too. Debian has a good packet system, too, which is easy to administer the software (apt/aptitude + deb).

With the projects: I have started some but until now only one person adds himself to the list.

Best regards,

Jan

Von: wikiversity-l-bounces@lists.wikimedia.org [mailto:wikiversity-l-bounces@lists.wikimedia.org] Im Auftrag von Gerald A Gesendet: Dienstag, 1. Juni 2010 02:57 An: Mailing list for Wikiversity Betreff: Re: [Wikiversity-l] Sandbox Server

Hi Jan,

2010/5/18 Jan Luca jan@jans-seite.de

here two of my ideaa:

1. Website: The main website (e.g. www.sandbox-server.org ) contain general information, the information how to get an account/project, a link to a list of the projects/users and a "Thank you" for WMDE. The projects are under the project.<server name> and accessible per /~<project name> (userdir in Apache). The user pages (for own files and so on) are similar to the project page accessible per user.<server name>/~<user name>.

There should be a config interface, too. I think the address should be https://config.<server name>.

Sounds interesting. I like the idea of making it clear who the project sponsor is, and being up front about thanking them. I also like the idea that a "project" should have a project page. While user pages and "public_html" directories are easy for us techs, Leigh and Cormac are going to have an easier time with an easier interface. A wiki? Some other software? I'm open to suggestions here.

2. Software: The basic software should be Apache, PHP (maybe PHP 6.0 too for testing), MySQL and Perl. I think for security should PHP use fastcgi with suexec to run in Apache so the scripts are run as the owner. Fastcgi should give some performance.

I think Apache, PHP, MySQL and Perl are all doable. Since I'm going to be the lead guy on this (it seems), I'm going to pull a little weight and suggest we use FreeBSD as the base OS. It's Unix, and it has some good features I'd like to leverage. I'm open to suggestions, but they have to be (a) easy to use and (b) easy to administer.

I've been doing some digging and I haven't been able to find a local provider who can do what we need at the price point we are looking at. I'd prefer a box that I can visit, as it would allow a bit more flexibility, but we can work around that.

I was hoping to elicit another project or two from wv-en, but I haven't heard anything on that front. I'll check out the new central sandbox page, maybe we can harvest a few projects from there.

Thanks,

Gerald

Hi All,

After sitting on the sidelines for a couple months, it's time to take this off the backburner.

I'm quite disappointed that there seem to be no local to me orgs that want to help out with this.

They were either out of our budget or weren't willing to host such a small endeavour, despite it being a good cause.

So, off with their heads, onwards and upwards. We'll have plenty of choice without a "local to me" restriction, which I wanted just in case something goes wrong with the servers -- I can actually physically kick the box.

Ok, so, we're looking for a host with good internet connectivity. I'm not sure if our initial projects will require VMs, but being able to do VMs easily would be nice.

We'll also need some kind of a backup system.

If anyone has suggestions or referrals, please let me know.

I'm hoping to have this up and accepting projects in 2 weeks. Let's see what we can do.

Thanks, Gerald.

Hi Gerald,

Good news!

But I can’t help you with names of American ISP. Maybe someone else has some names

Best regards,

Jan

Von: wikiversity-l-bounces@lists.wikimedia.org [mailto:wikiversity-l-bounces@lists.wikimedia.org] Im Auftrag von Juan de Vojníkov Gesendet: Montag, 9. August 2010 09:04 An: Mailing list for Wikiversity Betreff: Re: [Wikiversity-l] Sandbox Server

Hi,

also a comment from me. After exodus of Wikiversity participants from the WMF movement I lost the interest. There seem to be also a very small support from WMF (as I seen some presentations on Wikimania).

There were founded also some forks, where people are not frighten from the founder and were the technical development goes faster being not burdened by bureaucracy and technical strategy, which is still implementing Wikipedia tools to other non-Wikipedia projects.

And of course another reason is time. Now I work on Czech Wikiversity and this month came back to English Wikiversity were I found a mess, a big mess. There are hundreds of students and teachers from universities and other schools from hole around the world, but seems to me that a very little number of people patrolling RC.

Regards, Juan

2010/8/9 Gerald A geraldablists@gmail.com

Hi All,

After sitting on the sidelines for a couple months, it's time to take this off the backburner.

I'm quite disappointed that there seem to be no local to me orgs that want to help out with this.

They were either out of our budget or weren't willing to host such a small endeavour, despite it being a good cause.

So, off with their heads, onwards and upwards. We'll have plenty of choice without a "local to me" restriction, which

I wanted just in case something goes wrong with the servers -- I can actually physically kick the box.

Ok, so, we're looking for a host with good internet connectivity. I'm not sure if our initial projects will require

VMs, but being able to do VMs easily would be nice.

We'll also need some kind of a backup system.

If anyone has suggestions or referrals, please let me know.

I'm hoping to have this up and accepting projects in 2 weeks. Let's see what we can do.

Thanks,

Gerald.

_______________________________________________ Wikiversity-l mailing list Wikiversity-l@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikiversity-l

Hi,

I hope some persons will look on http://beta.wikiversity.org/wiki/Sandbox_Server and write a notice if they want to help in a project. There are some projects started yet.

Best regards,

Jan

Von: wikiversity-l-bounces@lists.wikimedia.org [mailto:wikiversity-l-bounces@lists.wikimedia.org] Im Auftrag von Gerald A Gesendet: Mittwoch, 11. August 2010 16:48 An: Mailing list for Wikiversity Betreff: Re: [Wikiversity-l] Sandbox Server

Hi Jan,

2010/8/9 Jan Luca jan@jans-seite.de

Good news!

But I can't help you with names of American ISP. Maybe someone else has some names

No worries.

We also need some projects in the queue, to get the ball rolling. I'd like to start with 3, but have more

(up to 5 or so) in the wings, so we can actually use the server and get people participating.

Thanks,

Gerald.

Hi all,

2010/8/11 Jan Luca jan@jans-seite.de

I hope some persons will look on http://beta.wikiversity.org/wiki/Sandbox_Server and write a notice if they want to help in a project. There are some projects started yet.

I'd like to make a new call for Sandbox projects.

I've done a bunch of preliminary research, and re-confirmed that WM.DE is willing to help fund to start the project. (Much thanks to them for this)

I'm going to BE BOLD here and state that I'd like to see the server up and ready for projects before the end of the month, perhaps sooner. There are some small details to work out, but I think we can get all of the process done in a tight timeframe.

I've got a few projects in mind for the Sandbox Server, but we need more then just those projects to make the sever a success. I also want to make sure each project has enough resources, both technical and non-technical.

To be clear: You don't have to be technical to propose a Sandbox project -- you just need a good idea. To get your idea deployed, you might need a technical person, and we're going to be trying to recruit a few of them. If you _are_ a technical person, it might help if you could recruit someone to be a non-techie to bounce ideas and get feedback from.

So, let's hear some ideas!! You can get feedback from this list, and if you have a formal proposal, please post a pointer to the wiki page on the this list.

Thanks, Gerald

Hi Leigh,

2010/12/4 Leigh Blackall leighblackall@gmail.com

I'd very much like the ability to get code from a section, or whole page, and use it to embed content on other sites. Anyone know the extension?

I think your asking for a specific (and already?) existing Mediawiki extension module.

The Sandbox Server is an effort to but together new learning resources, and it might be appropriate to look at developing new MW extensions through.

That said, I'm not fully versed in all the MW extensions, but I'm not sure your description is complete enough for those knowledgeable to answer (but I could be wrong).

Are you looking and some kind of Inter-wiki transclusion?

Thanks, Gerald.

Hi,

you can look on „Special:Version“ to find out which extensions are installed.

Viele Grüße

Jan

Von: wikiversity-l-bounces@lists.wikimedia.org [mailto:wikiversity-l-bounces@lists.wikimedia.org] Im Auftrag von Leigh Blackall Gesendet: Sonntag, 5. Dezember 2010 07:31 An: Mailing list for Wikiversity Betreff: Re: [Wikiversity-l] Sandbox Server

I don't know what inter-wiki transclusion is sorry.

I have seen the extension I describe in use on the Uni of British Columbia wiki. Ill get the name of it.

It is an extension that adds a link next to the edit link that is on every section of a page. When clicked, embed code is made available for copying. (Just like in youtube). Users take this code, and place it on their own websites, thereby displaying the content of the wiki, but on their own site. If the wiki is changed, so is the content on the user's site.

On 05/12/2010 4:55 PM, "Gerald A" geraldablists@gmail.com wrote:

Hi Leigh,

2010/12/4 Leigh Blackall leighblackall@gmail.com

I'd very much like the ability to get code from a section, or whole page,

and use it to embed c...

I think your asking for a specific (and already?) existing Mediawiki extension module.

The Sandbox Server is an effort to but together new learning resources, and it might be appropriate to look at developing new MW extensions through.

That said, I'm not fully versed in all the MW extensions, but I'm not sure your description is complete enough for those knowledgeable to answer (but I could be wrong).

Are you looking and some kind of Inter-wiki transclusion?

Thanks, Gerald.

_______________________________________________ Wikiversity-l mailing list Wikiversity-l@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikiversity-l

Oooh! That's sounds too easy Bawolf..

I tried it for http://en.wikiversity.org/wiki/User:Leighblackall

It worked beautifully!

http://leighblackall.blogspot.com/p/wiki.html

Is there anything I can do to force font, remove the big "Edit" link, and other things? This is great! Now we can go ahead and embed Wiki content into web pages that add extra functionality to units we teach.

Thanks!

On Mon, Dec 6, 2010 at 8:00 AM, bawolff <bawolff+wn@gmail.combawolff%2Bwn@gmail.com

wrote:

2010/12/5 Leigh Blackall leighblackall@gmail.com:

...

I don't know what inter-wiki transclusion is sorry.

I have seen the extension I describe in use on the Uni of British

Columbia

...

wiki. Ill get the name of it.

It is an extension that adds a link next to the edit link that is on

every

...

section of a page. When clicked, embed code is made available for

copying.

...

(Just like in youtube). Users take this code, and place it on their own websites, thereby displaying the content of the wiki, but on their own

site.

...

If the wiki is changed, so is the content on the user's site.

Doing stuff like <iframe src="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Main_Page?action=render" frameborder="0" width="600" height="400"> will work on generic mediawiki to embed a wik-page into another web page. (It won't do sections though)

-bawolff

---

Wikiversity-l mailing list Wikiversity-l@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikiversity-l

Hmm, agreed. Thanks for the starting pointer though. It'll be useful enough for now.

On Mon, Dec 6, 2010 at 8:37 AM, bawolff <bawolff+wn@gmail.combawolff%2Bwn@gmail.com

wrote:

On Sun, Dec 5, 2010 at 5:26 PM, Leigh Blackall leighblackall@gmail.com wrote:

...

Oooh! That's sounds too easy Bawolf..

I tried it for http://en.wikiversity.org/wiki/User:Leighblackall

It worked beautifully!

http://leighblackall.blogspot.com/p/wiki.html

Is there anything I can do to force font, remove the big "Edit" link, and other things? This is great! Now we can go ahead and embed Wiki content

into

...

web pages that add extra functionality to units we teach.

Thanks!

Not really. Thats more a hack that works by accident then anything else. Links inside it also behave weirdly, and most (all?) css is not loaded. You can do more complicated things, like using the xslt parameter of the api to embed things fancily (wiktLookup being an example of that -

http://en.wiktionary.org/w/api.php?action=parse&format=xml&xslt=Medi... but you could also take a similar approach to load just the content of a page in prettier fashion than action=render but this approach also has its drawbacks), and at that point you might as well just write a proper extension as it'd probably be less work.

-bawolff

Hi,

at moment Gerald seems to be inaccessible (he doesn't answer to my last mail on the list or a private mail, maybe he answers to my request on his talk page). It would be bad when the project goes back to sleep. Has someone an idea?

Best regards,

Jan

Von: wikiversity-l-bounces@lists.wikimedia.org [mailto:wikiversity-l-bounces@lists.wikimedia.org] Im Auftrag von Gerald A Gesendet: Samstag, 4. Dezember 2010 19:01 An: Mailing list for Wikiversity Betreff: Re: [Wikiversity-l] Sandbox Server

Hi all,

2010/8/11 Jan Luca jan@jans-seite.de

I hope some persons will look on http://beta.wikiversity.org/wiki/Sandbox_Server and write a notice if they want to help in a project. There are some projects started yet.

I'd like to make a new call for Sandbox projects.

I've done a bunch of preliminary research, and re-confirmed that WM.DE is willing to help fund to start the project. (Much thanks to them for this)

I'm going to BE BOLD here and state that I'd like to see the server up and ready for projects before the end of the month, perhaps sooner. There are some small details to work out, but I think we can get all of the process done in a tight timeframe.

I've got a few projects in mind for the Sandbox Server, but we need more then just those projects to make the sever a success. I also want to make sure each project has enough resources, both technical and non-technical.

To be clear: You don't have to be technical to propose a Sandbox project -- you just need a good idea. To get your idea deployed, you might need a technical person, and we're going to be trying to recruit a few of them. If you _are_ a technical person, it might help if you could recruit someone to be a non-techie to bounce ideas and get feedback from.

So, let's hear some ideas!! You can get feedback from this list, and if you have a formal proposal, please post a pointer to the wiki page on the this list.

Thanks, Gerald

Hi,

2011/1/13 Jan Luca jan@jans-seite.de

OK, I get a mail from Gerald. Maybe you write something to the list, too.

Happy New Years, all!

I've actually gone through the signup process and am waiting to get the login details for the server. Unfortunately, since it's a new server, the provisioning department isn't open on the weekends.

While I do have a preference for what server OS we should run, I don't think it matters too much overall. It'll be some flavor of Unix, and the server won't be heavyweight enough to run VMs or other such goodies so we'll likely stick with something that has some flexibility in that regard.

Thanks, Gerald

Hi All,

After much delay, things are finally starting to line up.

I have to thank Jan for being patient and persistent, who kept asking as I pushed this along. I've recently re-confirmed WM-DE's generous offer to cover the cost of the Server.

Now, bring on the projects!! :)

I'm going to have a busy week upcoming, but I'll stick handle things forward as far as I can as quickly as I can. I'm settling up the finance portion with the hosting company. Once we have a few projects ready to go, I'll get the technical stuff there and start handing out accounts.

Ok, so if your interested, you might ask: What is a "project"?

It's anything that is computer-related (and hopefully learning related) which can accompany or accommodate wiki-based resources.

My original idea here was for users of something like a Wikiversity C language course. This allows people to write, compile, and try out programs without needing to have a full development environment locally.

Others have suggested things like Moodle and other CMS projects. What else? Only your mind is the limitations.

Now, if you have a great idea for a project, there is one catch -- our gracious hosts (WM-DE) have requested a monthly status report on hosted projects. So, we do need some feedback about what's going on and what's coming up in your project. The idea is that they want to know what's being done with their money -- and they've assured me that what they want isn't overly onerous.

Want to sign up right now? For the next week or two, feel free to send me a note. Once we've got things worked out, I'll post a WikiLink and we'll have some signup webpages in the next little while.

Thanks to all who have helped to make this possible, Gerald

Hi Juan,

2010/8/9 Juan de Vojníkov juandevojnikov@gmail.com

also a comment from me. After exodus of Wikiversity participants from the WMF movement I lost the interest. There seem to be also a very small support from WMF (as I seen some presentations on Wikimania).

There were founded also some forks, where people are not frighten from the founder and were the technical development goes faster being not burdened by bureaucracy and technical strategy, which is still implementing Wikipedia tools to other non-Wikipedia projects.

And of course another reason is time. Now I work on Czech Wikiversity and this month came back to English Wikiversity were I found a mess, a big mess. There are hundreds of students and teachers from universities and other schools from hole around the world, but seems to me that a very little number of people patrolling RC.

First -- Hi again. :)

Second -- Let me say, you are invited to help/use the Sandbox Server from both Czech WV or English WV. Any WV, in any language, is invited to join, submit projects and use the resources. I'm hoping that we can pool resources, despite having a variety of languages.

So, feel free to post a note at Czech WV letting them know we hope to see participation.

Thanks, Gerald

I, like a bad Wikimedian, forgot to include my reference.

http://stats.wikimedia.org/wikiversity/EN/TablesWikipediansContributors.htm

On Aug 9, 2010, at 4:42 PM, Philippe Beaudette wrote:

Without trying to pick a fight here, I think it's important to not let phrases like "exodus of Wikiversity participants" go unchallenged. The numbers are interesting here: for every month in the last 12, every Wikiversity project except Japanese and Russian (with the exception of two months in which the Russian Wikiversity had amazing growth, a trend that I hope will continue) has seen growth, not diminishment. "Exodus" to me, implies a net loss. Overall, the languages have an increase from 1954 users to 2623 over the last year.

Perhaps what Juan meant was "after some core contributors left", or something, but I think we should look seriously at the numbers when seeing statements like that.

As to whether the Foundation cares... again, I don't want to pick a fight, but... well, I'm reading, and I answered. :)

pb ____________________ Philippe Beaudette Head of Reader Relations Wikimedia Foundation

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On Aug 9, 2010, at 12:04 AM, Juan de Vojníkov wrote:

...

Hi,

also a comment from me. After exodus of Wikiversity participants from the WMF movement I lost the interest. There seem to be also a very small support from WMF (as I seen some presentations on Wikimania).

There were founded also some forks, where people are not frighten from the founder and were the technical development goes faster being not burdened by bureaucracy and technical strategy, which is still implementing Wikipedia tools to other non-Wikipedia projects.

And of course another reason is time. Now I work on Czech Wikiversity and this month came back to English Wikiversity were I found a mess, a big mess. There are hundreds of students and teachers from universities and other schools from hole around the world, but seems to me that a very little number of people patrolling RC.

Regards, Juan

2010/8/9 Gerald A geraldablists@gmail.com Hi All,

After sitting on the sidelines for a couple months, it's time to take this off the backburner.

I'm quite disappointed that there seem to be no local to me orgs that want to help out with this.

They were either out of our budget or weren't willing to host such a small endeavour, despite it being a good cause.

So, off with their heads, onwards and upwards. We'll have plenty of choice without a "local to me" restriction, which I wanted just in case something goes wrong with the servers -- I can actually physically kick the box.

Ok, so, we're looking for a host with good internet connectivity. I'm not sure if our initial projects will require VMs, but being able to do VMs easily would be nice.

We'll also need some kind of a backup system.

If anyone has suggestions or referrals, please let me know.

I'm hoping to have this up and accepting projects in 2 weeks. Let's see what we can do.

Thanks, Gerald.

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Philippe, Juan:

2010/8/10 Juan de Vojníkov juandevojnikov@gmail.com

Well, the number of pages is also a question. Now it looks like that it is enough for Foundation to look on the quality and/or vitality of the project. Well there is not other way how to evaluate it.

But according my opinion it doesnt say nothing about Wikiversity. It is a good measure of succes for wp (no. of articles), wikt (no. of words), wb (no. of pages of a textbook). But for wv number of educational resources? How educational resource is defined? Lets have a look on Bloom Clock, it can cover 20% of total article count. I.e. there are 6 thousand pages on the project and 2 thousand are botanical items. So thats why number of pages is not good enough to evaluate wv.

And well, thanks to Philippe Beaudette "after many core contributors left" is a better statement.

I don't want to deprive you of a discussion of Wikiveristy vitality. I think this is the purpose of this mailing list.

However, I would invite either or both of you to start up a new thread on this, as this thread is supposed to be on the Sandbox Server. I would gladly participate on such a thread, in fact.

If, of course, you guys want to talk more about the Sandbox server, have some suggestions or comments, or a question on this, please hit reply and wax eloquently. :)

Thanks, Gerald

Hi Daniel et al.!

First, let me thank you for your detailed reply.

On Thu, May 13, 2010 at 5:17 PM, Daniel Kinzler daniel@brightbyte.dewrote:

To clarify my position in this: I'm Wikimedia germany's tech guy [and Pavel is ED]

Understood.

Gerald A wrote:

...

DE/EU, does it have to be managed, does it have to be a single server?)

I'm

...

just looking at what might be possible.

It doesn't matter where the server is located. WMDE offers to reimburse the person paying for the server. We will not assume any responsibility for its operation, or the projects running on it, or the content on the machine.

Ok, fair enough. I did go through the page on Meta, and there was a reference to "don't commit beyond 3 months". Is this an experiment for 3 months, or is it to be bit off in quarterly chunks? I just don't want to spend a lot of effort on something that will only have a 3 month lifespan.

...

a) Wiki Campus Radio, and experiments with Voice and Voice Products. I

was

involved in a number of Wiki Campus Radio experiments, and facilitated the

...

sessions and the raw capture of the voice. Other participants edited

them,

...

and they were available in various formats to listen to. As the hardware/software we were using was on loan, some possibilities for

on-demand

...

capture/listening weren't there.

The money question is, as always: how does wikiversity (or any wikimedia project) benefit from this project? And how does the project benefit from the sandbox server?

Ok, we're moving the ball forward now. :) The "WCR Sessions" had (and will have) a twofold benefit. First, it was a learning project in itself, finding out what needed to be done from a technical perspective, and then putting it together; and the sessions were information sessions, meant to bring together various parts of the learning community. We had participants "call in" worldwide, so from that perspective, I think it was successful.

...

As for b), would a "formal report" be required, or would a summary (maybe with more details) suffice? How often would be considered "regular"?

Monthly would be good. No big deal if you miss a month every now and then. Doesn't need to be formal, just an informative sentence or two. We just want to know what's happening.

Ok. I think we're coming up with guidelines, which I'm happy to enforce. In my mind, there will be a monthly report on all projects. Individual projects MUST report in at least every other month, and MAY report every month. If a project doesn't hit it's MUST report, it is temporarily suspended until it is brought up to date. If we have this as part of the signup for a project, we can make it clear that the reporting is part of the project deal and hopefully won't have to run after the contribs too much.

No, please add all projects you are willing to take care of. It doesn't make sense to rent a server for a single project anyway.

Agreed. Is there a minimum # you guys are looking to start with? I'm willing to help out, to the limits of my time availability, with a number of projects, but I'd like to see a few others step up and champion projects too. Project "leads" don't have to be technical to start a project and write the "progress" reports -- but they'll need to get someone to commit to helping out on that side.

I would like to have a dedicated contact person for the sandbox server. This person should take care that WMDE gets a monthly report about which projects are active on the server, which are idle or have died, etc. A sentence or two per project is sufficient. Who writes the report, how it is compiled, I don't care, I just don#t want to have to deal with 6 people every month about reporting.

Understood. I think it's best if we have a "primary" contact person (and perhaps an alternate, just so people can go to the bathroom/do a vacation/take a wikibreak). 6 people are too much, and if I were in your shoes it would hurt my head.

I still have a few questions that I'd like clarified, but I think I could be the person that moves this forward. Now, we need more projects and project leaders to make this practical.

Thanks, Gerald.

Hi Daniel,

On Fri, May 14, 2010 at 11:10 AM, Daniel Kinzler daniel@brightbyte.dewrote:

There's no pre-set time limit at all, we don't plan to discontinue the funding as long as the project works. "Things" may always come up, so I suppose I can only tell you that we won't withdraw from the project for at least a year (more likely, we will stick with it for much longer). However, in case it fails for some reason, it would be bad if someone got stuck for payments for an entire year. So, don't sign a hosting contract that is binding for more than 3 months, because 3 month is the max WMDE would continue to pay for in case the project fails.

Ok, fair enough. 3 months is the "wrap up limit". My thinking now is we can get a better deal by going longer -- quarterly might actually work out to a decent box.

Sounds good. I'm (supposed to be) on vacation right now, I'll check out the

projects you came up with next week.

Hey, no e-mail checking on vacation. :) I think we should give people some time to put together some proposals anyways -- I want some "shovel ready" projects, that can show real benefit to the community.

...

Ok. I think we're coming up with guidelines, which I'm happy to enforce. [...] there will be a monthly report on all projects. Individual projects

MUST

...

report in at least every other month, and MAY report every month.

Make that "SHOULD report every month".

I too would like to see each project report in more often. Maybe we make it "MUST" for the first 3 or 6 months, and relax it once things are more established. I think we could actually morph the "REPORT" into a "Project update newsletter", and everyone wants to point out how shiny their project is. (Maybe we submit it to one of the general blogs/etc).

I'd say three projects with two people committed to each would be a good start. More are better, fewer might still be acceptable, depending on details.

I think we're on the same page, here. So, let's try to aim for 3 "shovel ready" projects -- projects that are just wanting for space/hardware/something, not things that are just neat ideas. Minimum 2 participants, more is better.

I'll start researching providers and such, and solicit some projects on EN. If any other participants want to translate this and post it on other Wikiversities, I'd appreciate it.

Thanks, Gerald.

Going back a little to the discussion on lack of activity -

I decided that I will release a lot of my old lectures, notes, and the rest, and put together information on British Literature spanning 1650-1950. I'm also going to bring in some of my fellows to help add some content.

I will also bring in some additional people to help me work on a side project called the "Theory of Online Governance", that will serve as a philosophy of rules and regulations that best protect an active learning environment. Part of it would be to establish Wikiversity as independent (in the way Wikipedia is independent and all things are worked out internally).

I've talked to a few of you directly about it so far.

Sincerely, Jeffrey Peters aka Ottava Rima

2010/5/13 Jan Luca jan@jans-seite.de

Hi,

the main discussion page is < http://beta.wikiversity.org/wiki/Sandbox_Server%3E. I don’t know that some else is something about this.

The actual status is that we have a offer from the WMDE to pay for a server under 50 €. Someone from us rent a server and send the bill the WMDE which pay it back. The condition is that we send every three month a report about current project, their progress. The project should have a project description so the WMDE can see what the projects do.

Now we need some persons who write down their project (please see here: http://beta.wikiversity.org/wiki/Sandbox_Server#Projects). We also need someone who rents a server.

In the new server we should have more than one root (=admin). The only weak point is that the person who rents the server gives out.

Best regards,

Jan

*Von:* wikiversity-l-bounces@lists.wikimedia.org [mailto: wikiversity-l-bounces@lists.wikimedia.org] *Im Auftrag von *Cormac Lawler *G**esendet:* Mittwoch, 12. Mai 2010 16:34 *An:* Mailing list for Wikiversity *Betreff:* Re: [Wikiversity-l] Sandbox Server

I haven't been following recent events so closely - I know some en.wv participants have been participating in another project - but is it fair to call it an "exodus"?

In any case, I definitely think we should pursue with a sandbox server, engage people to administer it, and discuss what functionalities it might have. Is this the most recent discussion/workspace? < http://beta.wikiversity.org/wiki/Sandbox_Server%3E Has there been work elsewhere relating to the new sandbox server?

Jan, thanks for your enthusiasm here. As someone who has been closely involved in this so far, what do you think we need in order to get this up and running? For those who were involved in the 'old' server, what can we learn from that experience to make this one better?

Cormac

2010/5/12 Jan Luca jan@jans-seite.de

Hi,

the exodus refers to the en.wv. On German there is no exodus (French and Co. I have no information).

Maybe some other Wikiversityer can say something to this topic so we can see if there is interest.

Best regards,

Jan

*Von:* wikiversity-l-bounces@lists.wikimedia.org [mailto: wikiversity-l-bounces@lists.wikimedia.org] *Im Auftrag von *Juan de Vojníkov *Gesendet:* Mittwoch, 12. Mai 2010 08:31

*An:* Mailing list for Wikiversity *Betreff:* Re: [Wikiversity-l] Sandbox Server

Well,

my activity have dicreased, because there was other participant offering the help, but I havent understood, what he is talking about. So I left the issue until, he will come up with something.

Juan PS: Well, I am not sure if in the situation, there is an exodus from the wv, there will be an interest in Sandbox Server any more.

2010/5/12 Jan Luca jan@jans-seite.de

Hi,

the activity on the project is very low. I think we should do something or the "new" sandbox server ends like the "old".

Best regards, Jan

-----Ursprüngliche Nachricht----- Von: wikiversity-l-bounces@lists.wikimedia.org

[mailto:wikiversity-l-bounces@lists.wikimedia.org] Im Auftrag von Jan Luca Gesendet: Montag, 8. Februar 2010 17:20

An: 'Mailing list for Wikiversity' Betreff: Re: [Wikiversity-l] Sandbox Server

Hi,

I have create a first report on the wiki [1].

Viele Grüße Jan

[1] http://beta.wikiversity.org/wiki/Sandbox_Server#The_Report

-----Ursprüngliche Nachricht----- Von: wikiversity-l-bounces@lists.wikimedia.org [mailto:wikiversity-l-bounces@lists.wikimedia.org] Im Auftrag von Daniel Kinzler Gesendet: Montag, 1. Februar 2010 11:39 An: Mailing list for Wikiversity Betreff: Re: [Wikiversity-l] Sandbox Server

Juan de Vojníkov schrieb:

...

Hi Leigh,

yes, there is a page on Wikiversity Beta: http://beta.wikiversity.org/wiki/Sandbox_Server

Left some comments there.

-- daniel

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Hi Jan,

On Wed, May 12, 2010 at 12:59 AM, Jan Luca jan@jans-seite.de wrote:

the activity on the project is very low. I think we should do something or the "new" sandbox server ends like the "old".

I expressed interest in helping, and wondered what might be possible. I haven't heard much back, and I honestly just haven't had much time to pursue the cause so far.

I have a number of ideas, and I helped instigate the original push for a Sandbox server. How do we become involved, and what are the parameters?

Thanks, Gerald.