STOP
On 29 Sep 2012 07:59, <wikiversity-l-request(a)lists.wikimedia.org> wrote:
> Send Wikiversity-l mailing list submissions to
> wikiversity-l(a)lists.wikimedia.org
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>
>
> Today's Topics:
>
> 1. Hope any bureaucrats on Beta Wikiversity can review my
> custodianship request (Shujen Chang)
>
>
> ----------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> Message: 1
> Date: Sat, 29 Sep 2012 04:06:41 +0800
> From: Shujen Chang <i(a)blue.cat>
> To: wikiversity-l(a)lists.wikimedia.org
> Subject: [Wikiversity-l] Hope any bureaucrats on Beta Wikiversity can
> review my custodianship request
> Message-ID:
> <
> CAG8_C+zzJj_KGEwFOJ3fOZROLkZcQRedpwi66RjL9QofSPET-w(a)mail.gmail.com>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"
>
>
> http://beta.wikiversity.org/wiki/Wikiversity:Candidates_for_Custodianship/S…
> It is over 7 days, and seems consensus reached. Please review it, thanks!
>
> --
> Sincerely,
> Shujen Chang
>
Nice turn of phrase. Fact is, this dude has a Gmail account, so if he
can't manage to unsubscribe, he could just set up a filter (More >
Filter messages like these) -- as someone else suggest that others
will have (likely) already done to filter out email *from* him (and as
I am now planning to do myself).
On Sun, Sep 30, 2012 at 7:14 PM, Abd ulRahman Lomax <abdlomax(a)yahoo.com> wrote:
> Harry, when you are in the middle of an amygdala hijack, you may not be able
> to respond to instructions clearly. See if you can do whatever you know to
> do to relax, have some tea or coffee, get to a place of calm, and then try
> unsubscribing, reading everything carefully. You may find that this fixes
> the interface, in a way that shouting doesn't.
I think it's reasonable to consider Harry to be "trolling" at this
point (even if not intentionally).
STOP SENDING ME EMAILS STOP STOP STOP
On 30 Sep 2012 14:22, <wikiversity-l-request(a)lists.wikimedia.org> wrote:
> Send Wikiversity-l mailing list submissions to
> wikiversity-l(a)lists.wikimedia.org
>
> To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit
> https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikiversity-l
> or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to
> wikiversity-l-request(a)lists.wikimedia.org
>
> You can reach the person managing the list at
> wikiversity-l-owner(a)lists.wikimedia.org
>
> When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific
> than "Re: Contents of Wikiversity-l digest..."
>
>
> Today's Topics:
>
> 1. Management of this mailing list (Abd ulRahman Lomax)
> 2. Re: Management of this mailing list (Erkan Yilmaz)
>
>
> ----------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> Message: 1
> Date: Sun, 30 Sep 2012 11:14:21 -0700 (PDT)
> From: Abd ulRahman Lomax <abdlomax(a)yahoo.com>
> To: Mailing list for Wikiversity <wikiversity-l(a)lists.wikimedia.org>
> Subject: [Wikiversity-l] Management of this mailing list
> Message-ID:
> <1349028861.42055.YahooMailNeo(a)web121702.mail.ne1.yahoo.com>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"
>
> The sequence reveals that no moderator is both monitoring this list and
> willing to respond to the request, and possibly the listserver is not
> working properly.
>
>
> Yes, the user should be able to handle his own unsubscription and is being
> obtuse, repeating a message, insistently, to people who can't do anything
> about the situation, and perhaps not following instructions that come with
> every mail, or if he is, he is not requesting help, describing the specific
> problem encountered, he is merely demanding that someone DO SOMETHING TO
> FIX THIS!
>
>
> A common reason would be that the user no longer has access to an account
> for sending mail, but is still receiving mail to that account. If that is
> the case here, then Harry isn't telling anyone what the account is. The
> complete headers from a list mail to him would show what's happening.
> (Below, I figure out that this is not the case here. It's commonly a case
> with open mailing lists, this list is, however, closed.)
>
>
> STOP and all that does absolutely nothing. The instructions below do say
> how to unsubscribe. One of Harry's mails seems to be a response to a mail
> from wikiversity-l-request(a)lists.wikimedia.org and it looks like the
> subject was not created as instructed for unsubscription.
>
> If Harry tells us what he has done, and what happened, we will then know
> more specifically what to do about it. I'm not personally going to file a
> complaint with the overall wikimedia.org listserver administration unless
> I can verify a problem. And they are quite likely, given the massive
> subscription lists, to ignore complaints written in all caps that don't
> provide adequate information.
>
>
> To find out if the listserver is operating, I entered a number of commands
> through the web interface, which is *public*. I merely need enter the
> subscribed email address. The page is at
> https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikiversity-l
>
> On that page, in the "Wikiversity-l" subscribers section, after entering
> my subscribed email address, I pressed the "unsubscribe or edit options"
> button.
>
> I got a member options page acknowledging my email address as a
> subscriber, and one of the buttons was unsubscribe. I pressed the
> unsubscribe button, and, after a few minutes' delay, I received a
> confirmation mail. If I had responded with no changes to that mail, I
> presume I'd have been unsubscribed. I'd forgotten my password, which is not
> needed for unsubscription, so I then pressed the password reminder button
> and my password was emailed to me. Using the password, I logged in to the
> member options page. There is also an immediate unsubscription option there
> (since they know it's you because you logged in with the password.)
>
> So I did the same, using the Harry address from the mails. I then pressed
> an unsubscribe bottom, which, if Harry is a subscriber, would send him a
> confirmation mail, with instructions that, if followed carefully, will
> unsubscribe him. On the other hand, I tested this with a ridiculous
> subscription address. The interface does not reveal if the person is a
> subscriber or not.
>
> If Harry does not receive a mail, he can then strongly infer that he is
> not, under this email address, subscribed to the list. That, then, means
> that *nobody* can help him, unless he provides the subscription mailing
> address.
>
> However, it is very likely that Harry is a subscriber, because the list
> will reject mails from non-subscribers. I just tested that. Harry's mails,
> from his gmail address, are not being held for moderator approval. (If a
> moderator has set automatic approval, it would go through, but he'd also be
> getting the message held for approval message. I've seen a moderator set up
> automatic bounce approval when the moderation didn't want to surrender
> control but also didn't have the time to actually manage the list.)
>
>
> Harry, when you are in the middle of an amygdala hijack, you may not be
> able to respond to instructions clearly. See if you can do whatever you
> know to do to relax, have some tea or coffee, get to a place of calm, and
> then try unsubscribing, reading everything carefully. You may find that
> this fixes the interface, in a way that shouting doesn't.
>
> The amazing thing here is how long the hijack has lasted.
>
> Plus, I'm getting that we don't have a moderator who is regularly watching
> this list and ready to fix problems.
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> >________________________________
> > From: Shujen Chang <i(a)blue.cat>
> >To: Mailing list for Wikiversity <wikiversity-l(a)lists.wikimedia.org>
> >Sent: Sunday, September 30, 2012 8:28 AM
> >Subject: Re: [Wikiversity-l] Wikiversity-l Digest, Vol 58, Issue 4
> >
> >
> >You can just unsubscribe this mail list, if you do not want
> to?receive?any letters from the mail list again.
> >
> >
>
STOP SENDING ME EMAILS STOP STOP STOP
On 30 Sep 2012 15:45, <wikiversity-l-request(a)lists.wikimedia.org> wrote:
> Send Wikiversity-l mailing list submissions to
> wikiversity-l(a)lists.wikimedia.org
>
> To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit
> https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikiversity-l
> or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to
> wikiversity-l-request(a)lists.wikimedia.org
>
> You can reach the person managing the list at
> wikiversity-l-owner(a)lists.wikimedia.org
>
> When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific
> than "Re: Contents of Wikiversity-l digest..."
>
>
> Today's Topics:
>
> 1. Re: Management of this mailing list (Abd ulRahman Lomax)
>
>
> ----------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> Message: 1
> Date: Sun, 30 Sep 2012 12:44:45 -0700 (PDT)
> From: Abd ulRahman Lomax <abdlomax(a)yahoo.com>
> To: Erkan Yilmaz <erkan77(a)gmail.com>, Mailing list for Wikiversity
> <wikiversity-l(a)lists.wikimedia.org>
> Subject: Re: [Wikiversity-l] Management of this mailing list
> Message-ID:
> <1349034285.26208.YahooMailNeo(a)web121702.mail.ne1.yahoo.com>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"
>
> Well, Cormaggio has not edited Wikipedia for more than a year.
> http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Special:Contributions/Cormaggio&a…
>
> He has not edited Wikiversity for almost two years.
> http://en.wikiversity.org/wiki/Special:Contributions/Cormaggio.
>
> Cormaggio has been inactive everywhere in the WMF, at least through this
> unified log-in.
>
>
> Sebmol is listed as a manager of this list as well. He has not edited
> Wikiversity since March 2011, when he noted he was inactive and was willing
> to be removed as a bureaucrat.
> http://en.wikiversity.org/w/index.php?title=Wikiversity:Community_Review/Ab… been active on de. wikipedia, this year. Not much.
>
> It's obvious. We don't have an active list moderator. The complaining
> account is indeed listed as a member receiving the digest.
>
> If we get another echo from Harry, I'm going to take an action that might
> resolve the problem for him. I'm going to request a password restoration
> message in his name. If he responds to it, as he has to other messages, we
> might be able to fix this for him. Unorthodox, yes, but it will not do any
> actual harm to him, since he wants to be unsubscribed to all WMF lists,
> apparently. It risks revealing his password. Note that anyone could do this
> for any of us.... that's how the listserve works. I'm not using any special
> privilege. The password is mailed to the subscription address, and if the
> user responds to mails without looking at them, he's in danger anyway.
>
> Of course, if he starts paying attention, he can indeed fix this himself,
> the listserv seems to be working normally.
>
> I already requested unsubscription in his name. If he follows the
> instructions in that mail, he'll be unsubscribed and we won't hear from him
> again.
>
> Meanwhile, the lack of list administration is a possible problem, this
> particular manifestation is relatively minor. We are probably losing
> subscribers over this, but only a list manager can tell, if they can access
> the logs.
>
> ?
>
> I'd act to fix this, on-wiki, but ... I 'm still blocked from almost a
> year ago, the unblock template on my Talk page has no response, in spite of
> some request from the community, ignored. WV is, in many respects, dead.
> Such community as still exists stopped paying attention to central
> administrative matters, and so the technocrats rule, but they also lose
> interest, so in some areas, there is nobody ruling or acting. I basically
> gave up, given lack of purposeful community response supporting what I was
> doing. A majority isn't enough! When there is a lack of consensus on
> specific actions, admins have free reign, and policy doesn't matter. I was
> blocked for defending long-standing community policy on blocking. I'd just
> been desysopped outside of policy, as an "emergency" on meta. The emergency
> was that I'd acted, according to policy, reversing after discussion (once,
> not wheel-warring) a block of another user made by the 'crat who then
> requested the
> desysop, and, when a user changed the policy abusively, I requested
> custodian attention and was blocked for not other offense than civilly
> requesting attention.
>
>
> And the block proved that the policy wasn't worth the paper it wasn't
> written on. The real policy: a 'crat can do whatever he likes, can block
> anyone he doesn't like. No consequences, and no appeal is of any use. And
> the 'crat doesn't need to be, at all, an active WV user, he can just pop in
> whenever.
>
>
> I don't know where requests to add moderators are handled (meta?).
>
>
>
> From: Erkan Yilmaz <erkan77(a)gmail.com>
> >To: Abd ulRahman Lomax <abdlomax(a)yahoo.com>; Mailing list for
> Wikiversity <wikiversity-l(a)lists.wikimedia.org>
> >Sent: Sunday, September 30, 2012 1:22 PM
> >Subject: Re: [Wikiversity-l] Management of this mailing list
> >
> >
> >Harry had this request/game some time ago, where I tried to help him
> >not sure why he could not succeed
> >
> >afaik: Cormac is mod of the mailing list, he should be able to do
> something about this
> >http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User:Cormaggio
> >
> >
> >
> >Erkan
> >
> >
> >On Sun, Sep 30, 2012 at 8:14 PM, Abd ulRahman Lomax <abdlomax(a)yahoo.com>
> wrote:
> >
> >The sequence reveals that no moderator is both monitoring this list and
> willing to respond to the request, and possibly the listserver is not
> working properly.
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>Yes, the user should be able to handle his own unsubscription and is
> being obtuse, repeating a message, insistently, to people who can't do
> anything about the situation, and perhaps not following instructions that
> come with every mail, or if he is, he is not requesting help, describing
> the specific problem encountered, he is merely demanding that someone DO
> SOMETHING TO FIX THIS!
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>A common reason would be that the user no longer has access to an
> account for sending mail, but is still receiving mail to that account. If
> that is the case here, then Harry isn't telling anyone what the account is.
> The complete headers from a list mail to him would show what's happening.
> (Below, I figure out that this is not the case here. It's commonly a case
> with open mailing lists, this list is, however, closed.)
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>STOP and all that does absolutely nothing. The instructions below do say
> how to unsubscribe. One of Harry's mails seems to be a response to a mail
> from wikiversity-l-request(a)lists.wikimedia.org and it looks like the
> subject was not created as instructed for unsubscription.
> >>
> >>
> >>If Harry tells us what he has done, and what happened, we will then know
> more specifically what to do about it. I'm not personally going to file a
> complaint with the overall wikimedia.org listserver administration unless
> I can verify a problem. And they are quite likely, given the massive
> subscription lists, to ignore complaints written in all caps that don't
> provide adequate information.
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>To find out if the listserver is operating, I entered a number of
> commands through the web interface, which is *public*. I merely need enter
> the subscribed email address. The page is at
> https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikiversity-l
> >>
> >>
> >>On that page, in the "Wikiversity-l" subscribers section, after entering
> my subscribed email address, I pressed the "unsubscribe or edit options"
> button.
> >>
> >>
> >>I got a member options page acknowledging my email address as a
> subscriber, and one of the buttons was unsubscribe. I pressed the
> unsubscribe button, and, after a few minutes' delay, I received a
> confirmation mail. If I had responded with no changes to that mail, I
> presume I'd have been unsubscribed. I'd forgotten my password, which is not
> needed for unsubscription, so I then pressed the password reminder button
> and my password was emailed to me. Using the password, I logged in to the
> member options page. There is also an immediate unsubscription option there
> (since they know it's you because you logged in with the password.)
> >>
> >>
> >>So I did the same, using the Harry address from the mails. I then
> pressed an unsubscribe bottom, which, if Harry is a subscriber, would send
> him a confirmation mail, with instructions that, if followed carefully,
> will unsubscribe him. On the other hand, I tested this with a ridiculous
> subscription address. The interface does not reveal if the person is a
> subscriber or not.
> >>
> >>
> >>If Harry does not receive a mail, he can then strongly infer that he is
> not, under this email address, subscribed to the list. That, then, means
> that *nobody* can help him, unless he provides the subscription mailing
> address.
> >>
> >>
> >>However, it is very likely that Harry is a subscriber, because the list
> will reject mails from non-subscribers. I just tested that. Harry's mails,
> from his gmail address, are not being held for moderator approval. (If a
> moderator has set automatic approval, it would go through, but he'd also be
> getting the message held for approval message. I've seen a moderator set up
> automatic bounce approval when the moderation didn't want to surrender
> control but also didn't have the time to actually manage the list.)
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>Harry, when you are in the middle of an amygdala hijack, you may not be
> able to respond to instructions clearly. See if you can do whatever you
> know to do to relax, have some tea or coffee, get to a place of calm, and
> then try unsubscribing, reading everything carefully. You may find that
> this fixes the interface, in a way that shouting doesn't.
> >>
> >>
> >>The amazing thing here is how long the hijack has lasted.
> >>
> >>
> >>Plus, I'm getting that we don't have a moderator who is regularly
> watching this list and ready to fix problems.
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>>________________________________
> >>> From: Shujen Chang <i(a)blue.cat>
> >>>To: Mailing list for Wikiversity <wikiversity-l(a)lists.wikimedia.org>
> >>>Sent: Sunday, September 30, 2012 8:28 AM
> >>>Subject: Re: [Wikiversity-l] Wikiversity-l Digest, Vol 58, Issue 4
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>You can just unsubscribe this mail list, if you do not want
> to?receive?any letters from the mail list again.
> >>>
> >>>
> >>_______________________________________________
> >>Wikiversity-l mailing list
> >>Wikiversity-l(a)lists.wikimedia.org
> >>https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikiversity-l
> >>
> >>
> >
> >
> >
> >--
> >Find me at:?
> >
> >
> >personal blog?http://IaskQuestions.com
> >gnu/linux user #500092
> >
>
> >**********************************************************************************************
> >This e-mail may contain confidential and/or privileged information.
> >If you are not the intended recipient (or have received this e-mail in
> error)
> >please notify the sender immediately and destroy this e-mail.
> >Any unauthorised copying, disclosure or distribution of the material
> >in this e-mail is strictly forbidden.
> >
> >Diese eMail enthaelt vertrauliche und/oder rechtlich geschuetzte
> Informationen.
> >Wenn Sie nicht der richtige Adressat sind oder diese eMail irrtuemlich
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> >haben, informieren Sie bitte sofort den Absender und vernichten Sie diese
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> >
> >
>
STOP
On 30 Sep 2012 15:58, <wikiversity-l-request(a)lists.wikimedia.org> wrote:
> Send Wikiversity-l mailing list submissions to
> wikiversity-l(a)lists.wikimedia.org
>
> To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit
> https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikiversity-l
> or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to
> wikiversity-l-request(a)lists.wikimedia.org
>
> You can reach the person managing the list at
> wikiversity-l-owner(a)lists.wikimedia.org
>
> When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific
> than "Re: Contents of Wikiversity-l digest..."
>
>
> Today's Topics:
>
> 1. Re: Management of this mailing list (Erkan Yilmaz)
>
>
> ----------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> Message: 1
> Date: Sun, 30 Sep 2012 21:57:55 +0200
> From: Erkan Yilmaz <erkan77(a)gmail.com>
> To: Abd ulRahman Lomax <abdlomax(a)yahoo.com>
> Cc: Mailing list for Wikiversity <wikiversity-l(a)lists.wikimedia.org>
> Subject: Re: [Wikiversity-l] Management of this mailing list
> Message-ID:
> <CAD3HTdfuA8-6PY2yfv3KY7HpSyYOX44D-o_so00xi=
> ibMKZw7Q(a)mail.gmail.com>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"
>
> Hi Abd,
>
> since you can not edit:
> I've posted a request in the colloquium:
>
> http://en.wikiversity.org/wiki/Wikiversity:Colloquium#WV:_Mailing_list_prob…
>
> Erkan
> P.S. God save all people who survive
>
>
> On Sun, Sep 30, 2012 at 9:44 PM, Abd ulRahman Lomax <abdlomax(a)yahoo.com
> >wrote:
>
> > Well, Cormaggio has not edited Wikipedia for more than a year.
> >
> http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Special:Contributions/Cormaggio&a…
> >
> > He has not edited Wikiversity for almost two years.
> > http://en.wikiversity.org/wiki/Special:Contributions/Cormaggio.
> >
> > Cormaggio has been inactive everywhere in the WMF, at least through this
> > unified log-in.
> >
> > Sebmol is listed as a manager of this list as well. He has not edited
> > Wikiversity since March 2011, when he noted he was inactive and was
> willing
> > to be removed as a bureaucrat.
> >
> http://en.wikiversity.org/w/index.php?title=Wikiversity:Community_Review/Ab…
> > Sebmol has been active on de. wikipedia, this year. Not much.
> >
> > It's obvious. We don't have an active list moderator. The complaining
> > account is indeed listed as a member receiving the digest.
> >
> > If we get another echo from Harry, I'm going to take an action that might
> > resolve the problem for him. I'm going to request a password restoration
> > message in his name. If he responds to it, as he has to other messages,
> we
> > might be able to fix this for him. Unorthodox, yes, but it will not do
> any
> > actual harm to him, since he wants to be unsubscribed to all WMF lists,
> > apparently. It risks revealing his password. Note that anyone could do
> this
> > for any of us.... that's how the listserve works. I'm not using any
> special
> > privilege. The password is mailed to the subscription address, and if the
> > user responds to mails without looking at them, he's in danger anyway.
> >
> > Of course, if he starts paying attention, he can indeed fix this himself,
> > the listserv seems to be working normally.
> >
> > I already requested unsubscription in his name. If he follows the
> > instructions in that mail, he'll be unsubscribed and we won't hear from
> him
> > again.
> >
> > Meanwhile, the lack of list administration is a possible problem, this
> > particular manifestation is relatively minor. We are probably losing
> > subscribers over this, but only a list manager can tell, if they can
> access
> > the logs.
> >
> > I'd act to fix this, on-wiki, but ... I 'm still blocked from almost a
> > year ago, the unblock template on my Talk page has no response, in spite
> of
> > some request from the community, ignored. WV is, in many respects, dead.
> > Such community as still exists stopped paying attention to central
> > administrative matters, and so the technocrats rule, but they also lose
> > interest, so in some areas, there is nobody ruling or acting. I basically
> > gave up, given lack of purposeful community response supporting what I
> was
> > doing. A majority isn't enough! When there is a lack of consensus on
> > specific actions, admins have free reign, and policy doesn't matter. I
> was
> > blocked for defending long-standing community policy on blocking. I'd
> just
> > been desysopped outside of policy, as an "emergency" on meta. The
> emergency
> > was that I'd acted, according to policy, reversing after discussion
> (once,
> > not wheel-warring) a block of another user made by the 'crat who then
> > requested the desysop, and, when a user changed the policy abusively, I
> > requested custodian attention and was blocked for not other offense than
> > civilly requesting attention.
> >
> > And the block proved that the policy wasn't worth the paper it wasn't
> > written on. The real policy: a 'crat can do whatever he likes, can block
> > anyone he doesn't like. No consequences, and no appeal is of any use. And
> > the 'crat doesn't need to be, at all, an active WV user, he can just pop
> in
> > whenever.
> >
> > I don't know where requests to add moderators are handled (meta?).
> >
> > *From:* Erkan Yilmaz <erkan77(a)gmail.com>
> > *To:* Abd ulRahman Lomax <abdlomax(a)yahoo.com>; Mailing list for
> > Wikiversity <wikiversity-l(a)lists.wikimedia.org>
> > *Sent:* Sunday, September 30, 2012 1:22 PM
> > *Subject:* Re: [Wikiversity-l] Management of this mailing list
> >
> > Harry had this request/game some time ago, where I tried to help him
> > not sure why he could not succeed
> >
> > afaik: Cormac is mod of the mailing list, he should be able to do
> > something about this
> > http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User:Cormaggio
> >
> > Erkan
> >
> > On Sun, Sep 30, 2012 at 8:14 PM, Abd ulRahman Lomax <abdlomax(a)yahoo.com
> >wrote:
> >
> > The sequence reveals that no moderator is both monitoring this list and
> > willing to respond to the request, and possibly the listserver is not
> > working properly.
> >
> > Yes, the user should be able to handle his own unsubscription and is
> being
> > obtuse, repeating a message, insistently, to people who can't do anything
> > about the situation, and perhaps not following instructions that come
> with
> > every mail, or if he is, he is not requesting help, describing the
> specific
> > problem encountered, he is merely demanding that someone DO SOMETHING TO
> > FIX THIS!
> >
> > A common reason would be that the user no longer has access to an account
> > for sending mail, but is still receiving mail to that account. If that is
> > the case here, then Harry isn't telling anyone what the account is. The
> > complete headers from a list mail to him would show what's happening.
> > (Below, I figure out that this is not the case here. It's commonly a case
> > with open mailing lists, this list is, however, closed.)
> >
> > STOP and all that does absolutely nothing. The instructions below do say
> > how to unsubscribe. One of Harry's mails seems to be a response to a mail
> > from wikiversity-l-request(a)lists.wikimedia.org and it looks like the
> > subject was not created as instructed for unsubscription.
> >
> > If Harry tells us what he has done, and what happened, we will then know
> > more specifically what to do about it. I'm not personally going to file a
> > complaint with the overall wikimedia.org listserver administration
> unless
> > I can verify a problem. And they are quite likely, given the massive
> > subscription lists, to ignore complaints written in all caps that don't
> > provide adequate information.
> >
> > To find out if the listserver is operating, I entered a number of
> commands
> > through the web interface, which is *public*. I merely need enter the
> > subscribed email address. The page is at
> > https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikiversity-l
> >
> > On that page, in the "Wikiversity-l" subscribers section, after entering
> > my subscribed email address, I pressed the "unsubscribe or edit options"
> > button.
> >
> > I got a member options page acknowledging my email address as a
> > subscriber, and one of the buttons was unsubscribe. I pressed the
> > unsubscribe button, and, after a few minutes' delay, I received a
> > confirmation mail. If I had responded with no changes to that mail, I
> > presume I'd have been unsubscribed. I'd forgotten my password, which is
> not
> > needed for unsubscription, so I then pressed the password reminder button
> > and my password was emailed to me. Using the password, I logged in to the
> > member options page. There is also an immediate unsubscription option
> there
> > (since they know it's you because you logged in with the password.)
> >
> > So I did the same, using the Harry address from the mails. I then pressed
> > an unsubscribe bottom, which, if Harry is a subscriber, would send him a
> > confirmation mail, with instructions that, if followed carefully, will
> > unsubscribe him. On the other hand, I tested this with a ridiculous
> > subscription address. The interface does not reveal if the person is a
> > subscriber or not.
> >
> > If Harry does not receive a mail, he can then strongly infer that he is
> > not, under this email address, subscribed to the list. That, then, means
> > that *nobody* can help him, unless he provides the subscription mailing
> > address.
> >
> > However, it is very likely that Harry is a subscriber, because the list
> > will reject mails from non-subscribers. I just tested that. Harry's
> mails,
> > from his gmail address, are not being held for moderator approval. (If a
> > moderator has set automatic approval, it would go through, but he'd also
> be
> > getting the message held for approval message. I've seen a moderator set
> up
> > automatic bounce approval when the moderation didn't want to surrender
> > control but also didn't have the time to actually manage the list.)
> >
> > Harry, when you are in the middle of an amygdala hijack, you may not be
> > able to respond to instructions clearly. See if you can do whatever you
> > know to do to relax, have some tea or coffee, get to a place of calm, and
> > then try unsubscribing, reading everything carefully. You may find that
> > this fixes the interface, in a way that shouting doesn't.
> >
> > The amazing thing here is how long the hijack has lasted.
> >
> > Plus, I'm getting that we don't have a moderator who is regularly
> watching
> > this list and ready to fix problems.
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > ------------------------------
> > *From:* Shujen Chang <i(a)blue.cat>
> > *To:* Mailing list for Wikiversity <wikiversity-l(a)lists.wikimedia.org>
> > *Sent:* Sunday, September 30, 2012 8:28 AM
> > *Subject:* Re: [Wikiversity-l] Wikiversity-l Digest, Vol 58, Issue 4
> >
> > You can just unsubscribe this mail list, if you do not want to receive
> any
> > letters from the mail list again.
> >
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > Wikiversity-l mailing list
> > Wikiversity-l(a)lists.wikimedia.org
> > https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikiversity-l
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > --
> > Find me at:
> >
> > personal blog http://IaskQuestions.com <http://iaskquestions.com/>
> > gnu/linux user #500092
> >
> >
> >
> **********************************************************************************************
> > This e-mail may contain confidential and/or privileged information.
> > If you are not the intended recipient (or have received this e-mail in
> > error)
> > please notify the sender immediately and destroy this e-mail.
> > Any unauthorised copying, disclosure or distribution of the material
> > in this e-mail is strictly forbidden.
> >
> > Diese eMail enthaelt vertrauliche und/oder rechtlich geschuetzte
> > Informationen.
> > Wenn Sie nicht der richtige Adressat sind oder diese eMail irrtuemlich
> > erhalten
> > haben, informieren Sie bitte sofort den Absender und vernichten Sie diese
> > Mail.
> > Das unerlaubte Kopieren sowie die unbefugte Weitergabe dieser Mail ist
> > nicht
> > gestattet.
> >
> >
> **********************************************************************************************
> >
> >
> >
> >
>
>
>
>
> **********************************************************************************************
> This e-mail may contain confidential and/or privileged information.
> If you are not the intended recipient (or have received this e-mail in
> error)
> please notify the sender immediately and destroy this e-mail.
> Any unauthorised copying, disclosure or distribution of the material
> in this e-mail is strictly forbidden.
>
> Diese eMail enthaelt vertrauliche und/oder rechtlich geschuetzte
> Informationen.
> Wenn Sie nicht der richtige Adressat sind oder diese eMail irrtuemlich
> erhalten
> haben, informieren Sie bitte sofort den Absender und vernichten Sie diese
> Mail.
> Das unerlaubte Kopieren sowie die unbefugte Weitergabe dieser Mail ist
> nicht
> gestattet.
>
> **********************************************************************************************
>
STOP SENDING ME EMAILS STOP STOP STOP
On 30 Sep 2012 15:59, <wikiversity-l-request(a)lists.wikimedia.org> wrote:
> Send Wikiversity-l mailing list submissions to
> wikiversity-l(a)lists.wikimedia.org
>
> To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit
> https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikiversity-l
> or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to
> wikiversity-l-request(a)lists.wikimedia.org
>
> You can reach the person managing the list at
> wikiversity-l-owner(a)lists.wikimedia.org
>
> When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific
> than "Re: Contents of Wikiversity-l digest..."
>
>
> Today's Topics:
>
> 1. Re: Wikiversity-l Digest, Vol 58, Issue 10 (Harry Leitner)
>
>
> ----------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> Message: 1
> Date: Sun, 30 Sep 2012 15:59:01 -0400
> From: Harry Leitner <harryleitner(a)gmail.com>
> To: wikiversity-l(a)lists.wikimedia.org
> Subject: Re: [Wikiversity-l] Wikiversity-l Digest, Vol 58, Issue 10
> Message-ID:
> <CA+v_FXGxERz05knNgEV3Fuu=
> ZBreKzvsJsZ9ULRFdq5fBPTTTA(a)mail.gmail.com>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"
>
> STOP
> On 30 Sep 2012 15:58, <wikiversity-l-request(a)lists.wikimedia.org> wrote:
>
> > Send Wikiversity-l mailing list submissions to
> > wikiversity-l(a)lists.wikimedia.org
> >
> > To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit
> > https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikiversity-l
> > or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to
> > wikiversity-l-request(a)lists.wikimedia.org
> >
> > You can reach the person managing the list at
> > wikiversity-l-owner(a)lists.wikimedia.org
> >
> > When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific
> > than "Re: Contents of Wikiversity-l digest..."
> >
> >
> > Today's Topics:
> >
> > 1. Re: Management of this mailing list (Erkan Yilmaz)
> >
> >
> > ----------------------------------------------------------------------
> >
> > Message: 1
> > Date: Sun, 30 Sep 2012 21:57:55 +0200
> > From: Erkan Yilmaz <erkan77(a)gmail.com>
> > To: Abd ulRahman Lomax <abdlomax(a)yahoo.com>
> > Cc: Mailing list for Wikiversity <wikiversity-l(a)lists.wikimedia.org>
> > Subject: Re: [Wikiversity-l] Management of this mailing list
> > Message-ID:
> > <CAD3HTdfuA8-6PY2yfv3KY7HpSyYOX44D-o_so00xi=
> > ibMKZw7Q(a)mail.gmail.com>
> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"
> >
> > Hi Abd,
> >
> > since you can not edit:
> > I've posted a request in the colloquium:
> >
> >
> http://en.wikiversity.org/wiki/Wikiversity:Colloquium#WV:_Mailing_list_prob…
> >
> > Erkan
> > P.S. God save all people who survive
> >
> >
> > On Sun, Sep 30, 2012 at 9:44 PM, Abd ulRahman Lomax <abdlomax(a)yahoo.com
> > >wrote:
> >
> > > Well, Cormaggio has not edited Wikipedia for more than a year.
> > >
> >
> http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Special:Contributions/Cormaggio&a…
> > >
> > > He has not edited Wikiversity for almost two years.
> > > http://en.wikiversity.org/wiki/Special:Contributions/Cormaggio.
> > >
> > > Cormaggio has been inactive everywhere in the WMF, at least through
> this
> > > unified log-in.
> > >
> > > Sebmol is listed as a manager of this list as well. He has not edited
> > > Wikiversity since March 2011, when he noted he was inactive and was
> > willing
> > > to be removed as a bureaucrat.
> > >
> >
> http://en.wikiversity.org/w/index.php?title=Wikiversity:Community_Review/Ab…
> > > Sebmol has been active on de. wikipedia, this year. Not much.
> > >
> > > It's obvious. We don't have an active list moderator. The complaining
> > > account is indeed listed as a member receiving the digest.
> > >
> > > If we get another echo from Harry, I'm going to take an action that
> might
> > > resolve the problem for him. I'm going to request a password
> restoration
> > > message in his name. If he responds to it, as he has to other messages,
> > we
> > > might be able to fix this for him. Unorthodox, yes, but it will not do
> > any
> > > actual harm to him, since he wants to be unsubscribed to all WMF lists,
> > > apparently. It risks revealing his password. Note that anyone could do
> > this
> > > for any of us.... that's how the listserve works. I'm not using any
> > special
> > > privilege. The password is mailed to the subscription address, and if
> the
> > > user responds to mails without looking at them, he's in danger anyway.
> > >
> > > Of course, if he starts paying attention, he can indeed fix this
> himself,
> > > the listserv seems to be working normally.
> > >
> > > I already requested unsubscription in his name. If he follows the
> > > instructions in that mail, he'll be unsubscribed and we won't hear from
> > him
> > > again.
> > >
> > > Meanwhile, the lack of list administration is a possible problem, this
> > > particular manifestation is relatively minor. We are probably losing
> > > subscribers over this, but only a list manager can tell, if they can
> > access
> > > the logs.
> > >
> > > I'd act to fix this, on-wiki, but ... I 'm still blocked from almost a
> > > year ago, the unblock template on my Talk page has no response, in
> spite
> > of
> > > some request from the community, ignored. WV is, in many respects,
> dead.
> > > Such community as still exists stopped paying attention to central
> > > administrative matters, and so the technocrats rule, but they also lose
> > > interest, so in some areas, there is nobody ruling or acting. I
> basically
> > > gave up, given lack of purposeful community response supporting what I
> > was
> > > doing. A majority isn't enough! When there is a lack of consensus on
> > > specific actions, admins have free reign, and policy doesn't matter. I
> > was
> > > blocked for defending long-standing community policy on blocking. I'd
> > just
> > > been desysopped outside of policy, as an "emergency" on meta. The
> > emergency
> > > was that I'd acted, according to policy, reversing after discussion
> > (once,
> > > not wheel-warring) a block of another user made by the 'crat who then
> > > requested the desysop, and, when a user changed the policy abusively, I
> > > requested custodian attention and was blocked for not other offense
> than
> > > civilly requesting attention.
> > >
> > > And the block proved that the policy wasn't worth the paper it wasn't
> > > written on. The real policy: a 'crat can do whatever he likes, can
> block
> > > anyone he doesn't like. No consequences, and no appeal is of any use.
> And
> > > the 'crat doesn't need to be, at all, an active WV user, he can just
> pop
> > in
> > > whenever.
> > >
> > > I don't know where requests to add moderators are handled (meta?).
> > >
> > > *From:* Erkan Yilmaz <erkan77(a)gmail.com>
> > > *To:* Abd ulRahman Lomax <abdlomax(a)yahoo.com>; Mailing list for
> > > Wikiversity <wikiversity-l(a)lists.wikimedia.org>
> > > *Sent:* Sunday, September 30, 2012 1:22 PM
> > > *Subject:* Re: [Wikiversity-l] Management of this mailing list
> > >
> > > Harry had this request/game some time ago, where I tried to help him
> > > not sure why he could not succeed
> > >
> > > afaik: Cormac is mod of the mailing list, he should be able to do
> > > something about this
> > > http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User:Cormaggio
> > >
> > > Erkan
> > >
> > > On Sun, Sep 30, 2012 at 8:14 PM, Abd ulRahman Lomax <
> abdlomax(a)yahoo.com
> > >wrote:
> > >
> > > The sequence reveals that no moderator is both monitoring this list and
> > > willing to respond to the request, and possibly the listserver is not
> > > working properly.
> > >
> > > Yes, the user should be able to handle his own unsubscription and is
> > being
> > > obtuse, repeating a message, insistently, to people who can't do
> anything
> > > about the situation, and perhaps not following instructions that come
> > with
> > > every mail, or if he is, he is not requesting help, describing the
> > specific
> > > problem encountered, he is merely demanding that someone DO SOMETHING
> TO
> > > FIX THIS!
> > >
> > > A common reason would be that the user no longer has access to an
> account
> > > for sending mail, but is still receiving mail to that account. If that
> is
> > > the case here, then Harry isn't telling anyone what the account is. The
> > > complete headers from a list mail to him would show what's happening.
> > > (Below, I figure out that this is not the case here. It's commonly a
> case
> > > with open mailing lists, this list is, however, closed.)
> > >
> > > STOP and all that does absolutely nothing. The instructions below do
> say
> > > how to unsubscribe. One of Harry's mails seems to be a response to a
> mail
> > > from wikiversity-l-request(a)lists.wikimedia.org and it looks like the
> > > subject was not created as instructed for unsubscription.
> > >
> > > If Harry tells us what he has done, and what happened, we will then
> know
> > > more specifically what to do about it. I'm not personally going to
> file a
> > > complaint with the overall wikimedia.org listserver administration
> > unless
> > > I can verify a problem. And they are quite likely, given the massive
> > > subscription lists, to ignore complaints written in all caps that don't
> > > provide adequate information.
> > >
> > > To find out if the listserver is operating, I entered a number of
> > commands
> > > through the web interface, which is *public*. I merely need enter the
> > > subscribed email address. The page is at
> > > https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikiversity-l
> > >
> > > On that page, in the "Wikiversity-l" subscribers section, after
> entering
> > > my subscribed email address, I pressed the "unsubscribe or edit
> options"
> > > button.
> > >
> > > I got a member options page acknowledging my email address as a
> > > subscriber, and one of the buttons was unsubscribe. I pressed the
> > > unsubscribe button, and, after a few minutes' delay, I received a
> > > confirmation mail. If I had responded with no changes to that mail, I
> > > presume I'd have been unsubscribed. I'd forgotten my password, which is
> > not
> > > needed for unsubscription, so I then pressed the password reminder
> button
> > > and my password was emailed to me. Using the password, I logged in to
> the
> > > member options page. There is also an immediate unsubscription option
> > there
> > > (since they know it's you because you logged in with the password.)
> > >
> > > So I did the same, using the Harry address from the mails. I then
> pressed
> > > an unsubscribe bottom, which, if Harry is a subscriber, would send him
> a
> > > confirmation mail, with instructions that, if followed carefully, will
> > > unsubscribe him. On the other hand, I tested this with a ridiculous
> > > subscription address. The interface does not reveal if the person is a
> > > subscriber or not.
> > >
> > > If Harry does not receive a mail, he can then strongly infer that he is
> > > not, under this email address, subscribed to the list. That, then,
> means
> > > that *nobody* can help him, unless he provides the subscription mailing
> > > address.
> > >
> > > However, it is very likely that Harry is a subscriber, because the list
> > > will reject mails from non-subscribers. I just tested that. Harry's
> > mails,
> > > from his gmail address, are not being held for moderator approval. (If
> a
> > > moderator has set automatic approval, it would go through, but he'd
> also
> > be
> > > getting the message held for approval message. I've seen a moderator
> set
> > up
> > > automatic bounce approval when the moderation didn't want to surrender
> > > control but also didn't have the time to actually manage the list.)
> > >
> > > Harry, when you are in the middle of an amygdala hijack, you may not be
> > > able to respond to instructions clearly. See if you can do whatever you
> > > know to do to relax, have some tea or coffee, get to a place of calm,
> and
> > > then try unsubscribing, reading everything carefully. You may find that
> > > this fixes the interface, in a way that shouting doesn't.
> > >
> > > The amazing thing here is how long the hijack has lasted.
> > >
> > > Plus, I'm getting that we don't have a moderator who is regularly
> > watching
> > > this list and ready to fix problems.
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > ------------------------------
> > > *From:* Shujen Chang <i(a)blue.cat>
> > > *To:* Mailing list for Wikiversity <wikiversity-l(a)lists.wikimedia.org>
> > > *Sent:* Sunday, September 30, 2012 8:28 AM
> > > *Subject:* Re: [Wikiversity-l] Wikiversity-l Digest, Vol 58, Issue 4
> > >
> > > You can just unsubscribe this mail list, if you do not want to receive
> > any
> > > letters from the mail list again.
> > >
> > >
> > > _______________________________________________
> > > Wikiversity-l mailing list
> > > Wikiversity-l(a)lists.wikimedia.org
> > > https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikiversity-l
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > --
> > > Find me at:
> > >
> > > personal blog http://IaskQuestions.com <http://iaskquestions.com/>
> > > gnu/linux user #500092
> > >
> > >
> > >
> >
> **********************************************************************************************
> > > This e-mail may contain confidential and/or privileged information.
> > > If you are not the intended recipient (or have received this e-mail in
> > > error)
> > > please notify the sender immediately and destroy this e-mail.
> > > Any unauthorised copying, disclosure or distribution of the material
> > > in this e-mail is strictly forbidden.
> > >
> > > Diese eMail enthaelt vertrauliche und/oder rechtlich geschuetzte
> > > Informationen.
> > > Wenn Sie nicht der richtige Adressat sind oder diese eMail irrtuemlich
> > > erhalten
> > > haben, informieren Sie bitte sofort den Absender und vernichten Sie
> diese
> > > Mail.
> > > Das unerlaubte Kopieren sowie die unbefugte Weitergabe dieser Mail ist
> > > nicht
> > > gestattet.
> > >
> > >
> >
> **********************************************************************************************
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> **********************************************************************************************
> > This e-mail may contain confidential and/or privileged information.
> > If you are not the intended recipient (or have received this e-mail in
> > error)
> > please notify the sender immediately and destroy this e-mail.
> > Any unauthorised copying, disclosure or distribution of the material
> > in this e-mail is strictly forbidden.
> >
> > Diese eMail enthaelt vertrauliche und/oder rechtlich geschuetzte
> > Informationen.
> > Wenn Sie nicht der richtige Adressat sind oder diese eMail irrtuemlich
> > erhalten
> > haben, informieren Sie bitte sofort den Absender und vernichten Sie diese
> > Mail.
> > Das unerlaubte Kopieren sowie die unbefugte Weitergabe dieser Mail ist
> > nicht
> > gestattet.
> >
> >
> **********************************************************************************************
> >