In respect to a thread here and a recent private discussion I'll highlight the valuable side effects of misogyny.
*Misogyny discredits the individual who possesses it.* From a distance it may not be obvious which side of a dispute can supply better evidence, but open bigotry sure as heck is obvious.
*Misogyny relieves me of regrets.* Sometimes I second guess myself after I use the sysop tools. A sexist quip clears my conscience. I go away happy to be the sysop and equally happy the fellow is blocked or banned.
*Misogyny is the perfect troll. * I'm not above a little *schadenfreude*; I think it's hilarious. Misogyny generates misery among a certain set of people who are basically unpleasant anyway and wastes huge amounts of their time and energy. Best of all, I break zero rules and keep all my online buddies while they make themselves despised and sometimes even endanger their careers.
-Durova
What thread are you speaking of? Have you really been attacked as a woman authority figure on-wiki by anyone other than vandals? I mean, I wouldn't be surprised, but I don't think I've ever seen any cases of outright misogyny. Usually people are too focused on the faggot, N-bomb, commie-pinko, faggot, nerd, faggot, loser vein to bother to say "get back in the kitchen, stupid woman". Or maybe it's that there are so few female Wikipedians that it hasn't had the opportunity to crop up yet...which might be even worse an issue, imo
On 8/28/07, Durova nadezhda.durova@gmail.com wrote:
In respect to a thread here and a recent private discussion I'll highlight the valuable side effects of misogyny.
*Misogyny discredits the individual who possesses it.* From a distance it may not be obvious which side of a dispute can supply better evidence, but open bigotry sure as heck is obvious.
*Misogyny relieves me of regrets.* Sometimes I second guess myself after I use the sysop tools. A sexist quip clears my conscience. I go away happy to be the sysop and equally happy the fellow is blocked or banned.
*Misogyny is the perfect troll. * I'm not above a little *schadenfreude*; I think it's hilarious. Misogyny generates misery among a certain set of people who are basically unpleasant anyway and wastes huge amounts of their time and energy. Best of all, I break zero rules and keep all my online buddies while they make themselves despised and sometimes even endanger their careers.
-Durova _______________________________________________ WikiEN-l mailing list WikiEN-l@lists.wikimedia.org To unsubscribe from this mailing list, visit: http://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikien-l
On 8/28/07, Steven Walling steven.walling@gmail.com wrote:
What thread are you speaking of? Have you really been attacked as a woman authority figure on-wiki by anyone other than vandals? I mean, I wouldn't be surprised, but I don't think I've ever seen any cases of outright misogyny. Usually people are too focused on the faggot, N-bomb, commie-pinko, faggot, nerd, faggot, loser vein to bother to say "get back in the kitchen, stupid woman". Or maybe it's that there are so few female Wikipedians that it hasn't had the opportunity to crop up yet...which might be even worse an issue, imo
On 8/28/07, Durova nadezhda.durova@gmail.com wrote:
In respect to a thread here and a recent private discussion I'll highlight the valuable side effects of misogyny.
*Misogyny discredits the individual who possesses it.* From a distance it may not be obvious which side of a dispute can supply better evidence, but open bigotry sure as heck is obvious.
*Misogyny relieves me of regrets.* Sometimes I second guess myself after I use the sysop tools. A sexist quip clears my conscience. I go away happy to be the sysop and equally happy the fellow is blocked or banned.
*Misogyny is the perfect troll. * I'm not above a little *schadenfreude*; I think it's hilarious. Misogyny generates misery among a certain set of people who are basically unpleasant anyway and wastes huge amounts of their time and energy. Best of all, I break zero rules and keep all my online buddies while they make themselves despised and sometimes even endanger their careers.
Oh please, calling oneself a pimp as a user name and saying, "Gotta keep the pimp hand strong" is about as misogynist as it gets. Oh, wait, it goes one better. There's a "this user is a pimp" user box. I put it on my user page along with a thousand others, and no one gives a shit. It's cute and something that boys do, and all the boy's friends will slam down anyone who objects to the boy proudly displaying his misogyn--so I found out.
KP
Don't be so quick to judge. I didn't say it didn't exist. I said I didn't know what incident she was talking about, and I couldn't think of any examples of blatant misogyny on-wiki from personal experience. Don't assume my experience encompasses everything on-wiki, and certainly not what you or anyone else has. I didn't say a "pimpmasta123" name or a pimp userbox wasn't misogynist, I said I'd never heard of it.
On 8/28/07, K P kpbotany@gmail.com wrote:
On 8/28/07, Steven Walling steven.walling@gmail.com wrote:
What thread are you speaking of? Have you really been attacked as a
woman
authority figure on-wiki by anyone other than vandals? I mean, I
wouldn't be
surprised, but I don't think I've ever seen any cases of outright
misogyny.
Usually people are too focused on the faggot, N-bomb, commie-pinko,
faggot,
nerd, faggot, loser vein to bother to say "get back in the kitchen,
stupid
woman". Or maybe it's that there are so few female Wikipedians that it hasn't had the opportunity to crop up yet...which might be even worse an issue, imo
On 8/28/07, Durova nadezhda.durova@gmail.com wrote:
In respect to a thread here and a recent private discussion I'll
highlight
the valuable side effects of misogyny.
*Misogyny discredits the individual who possesses it.* From a
distance it
may not be obvious which side of a dispute can supply better evidence, but open bigotry sure as heck is obvious.
*Misogyny relieves me of regrets.* Sometimes I second guess myself
after
I use the sysop tools. A sexist quip clears my conscience. I go away
happy
to be the sysop and equally happy the fellow is blocked or banned.
*Misogyny is the perfect troll. * I'm not above a little
*schadenfreude*;
I think it's hilarious. Misogyny generates misery among a certain set
of
people who are basically unpleasant anyway and wastes huge amounts of their time and energy. Best of all, I break zero rules and keep all my
online
buddies while they make themselves despised and sometimes even
endanger
their careers.
Oh please, calling oneself a pimp as a user name and saying, "Gotta keep the pimp hand strong" is about as misogynist as it gets. Oh, wait, it goes one better. There's a "this user is a pimp" user box. I put it on my user page along with a thousand others, and no one gives a shit. It's cute and something that boys do, and all the boy's friends will slam down anyone who objects to the boy proudly displaying his misogyn--so I found out.
KP
WikiEN-l mailing list WikiEN-l@lists.wikimedia.org To unsubscribe from this mailing list, visit: http://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikien-l
On 8/28/07, Steven Walling steven.walling@gmail.com wrote:
Don't be so quick to judge. I didn't say it didn't exist. I said I didn't know what incident she was talking about, and I couldn't think of any examples of blatant misogyny on-wiki from personal experience. Don't assume my experience encompasses everything on-wiki, and certainly not what you or anyone else has. I didn't say a "pimpmasta123" name or a pimp userbox wasn't misogynist, I said I'd never heard of it.
On 8/28/07, K P kpbotany@gmail.com wrote:
On 8/28/07, Steven Walling steven.walling@gmail.com wrote:
What thread are you speaking of? Have you really been attacked as a
woman
authority figure on-wiki by anyone other than vandals? I mean, I
wouldn't be
surprised, but I don't think I've ever seen any cases of outright
misogyny.
Usually people are too focused on the faggot, N-bomb, commie-pinko,
faggot,
nerd, faggot, loser vein to bother to say "get back in the kitchen,
stupid
woman". Or maybe it's that there are so few female Wikipedians that it hasn't had the opportunity to crop up yet...which might be even worse an issue, imo
On 8/28/07, Durova nadezhda.durova@gmail.com wrote:
In respect to a thread here and a recent private discussion I'll
highlight
the valuable side effects of misogyny.
*Misogyny discredits the individual who possesses it.* From a
distance it
may not be obvious which side of a dispute can supply better evidence, but open bigotry sure as heck is obvious.
*Misogyny relieves me of regrets.* Sometimes I second guess myself
after
I use the sysop tools. A sexist quip clears my conscience. I go away
happy
to be the sysop and equally happy the fellow is blocked or banned.
*Misogyny is the perfect troll. * I'm not above a little
*schadenfreude*;
I think it's hilarious. Misogyny generates misery among a certain set
of
people who are basically unpleasant anyway and wastes huge amounts of their time and energy. Best of all, I break zero rules and keep all my
online
buddies while they make themselves despised and sometimes even
endanger
their careers.
Oh please, calling oneself a pimp as a user name and saying, "Gotta keep the pimp hand strong" is about as misogynist as it gets. Oh, wait, it goes one better. There's a "this user is a pimp" user box. I put it on my user page along with a thousand others, and no one gives a shit. It's cute and something that boys do, and all the boy's friends will slam down anyone who objects to the boy proudly displaying his misogyn--so I found out.
KP
You also might be less likely to be sensitive to it for obvious reasons. There are many things that men simply don't look twice at, that many women would find misogynist because they look at it from a different angle. I don't find the turning of "pimp" into an acceptable verb to be acceptable, mostly because the men who flaunt it seem to be using it in the old and more familiar sense, and are just taking advantage of, or lying about, its meaning in the vernacular. But many men I know who I don't think are misogynists, don't see anything offensive with "pimp my ride."
My son for example doesn't find the expression "pimp my ride" and related expressions offensive, and thinks I'm over-reacting that I do find them offended--"It's the vernacular, Mom, that language you adore." Yet, he considers it offensive to call someone a pimp as a compliment.
My comment wasn't really about this particular comment though, but that it's so common on Wikipedia for me to hear and come across obviously misogynist exchanges--and it's tiresome to hear announcements of it not being present, by those least likely to encounter it. It's no wonder there are so few women in the upper echelons on Wikipedia, imo, in a culture that is so damn accepting and ignorant of how it makes women outsiders.
KP
K P wrote:
Oh please, calling oneself a pimp as a user name and saying, "Gotta keep the pimp hand strong" is about as misogynist as it gets. Oh, wait, it goes one better. There's a "this user is a pimp" user box. I put it on my user page along with a thousand others, and no one gives a shit. It's cute and something that boys do, and all the boy's friends will slam down anyone who objects to the boy proudly displaying his misogyn--so I found out
You also might be less likely to be sensitive to it for obvious reasons. There are many things that men simply don't look twice at, that many women would find misogynist because they look at it from a different angle. I don't find the turning of "pimp" into an acceptable verb to be acceptable, mostly because the men who flaunt it seem to be using it in the old and more familiar sense, and are just taking advantage of, or lying about, its meaning in the vernacular. But many men I know who I don't think are misogynists, don't see anything offensive with "pimp my ride."
This says more about the evolution of language. Words adapt to the circumstances that use them. When you judge the word on the basis of the minority that flaunt it isn't that being just a little misandrian. Sure men look on these things differently, and wonder what all the fuss was about when women want to dwell upon something that was never intended. Being offended by the activities of the traditional pimp should not be equated with being offended by the use of the word.
My son for example doesn't find the expression "pimp my ride" and related expressions offensive, and thinks I'm over-reacting that I do find them offended--"It's the vernacular, Mom, that language you adore." Yet, he considers it offensive to call someone a pimp as a compliment.
Sounds like a normal kid. (age? - mine is 17) Then too dealing with real pimps has probably not been part of his personal experiences.
My comment wasn't really about this particular comment though, but that it's so common on Wikipedia for me to hear and come across obviously misogynist exchanges--and it's tiresome to hear announcements of it not being present, by those least likely to encounter it. It's no wonder there are so few women in the upper echelons on Wikipedia, imo, in a culture that is so damn accepting and ignorant of how it makes women outsiders.
It should tell you something that the majority of persons who have been elected the the Board by the community have been women. That's a neat trick to come from an electorate so full of misogynists.
I don't doubt that you have frequently encountered language on the part of others which you consider misogynistic. If it's coming from those "least likely to encounter it" you have disconnect more than you have misogyny. Not everybody is at the same place in the spectrum of gender politics. Those of us with experience in female dominated circumstances are not overly concerned about the gender of the person across the table from us. He or she is simply what he or she is. Gender relations falls apart when you start imputing misogynistic motives that were never there.
Ec
Ray Saintonge wrote:
K P wrote:
Oh please, calling oneself a pimp as a user name and saying, "Gotta keep the pimp hand strong" is about as misogynist as it gets. Oh, wait, it goes one better. There's a "this user is a pimp" user box. I put it on my user page along with a thousand others, and no one gives a shit. It's cute and something that boys do, and all the boy's friends will slam down anyone who objects to the boy proudly displaying his misogyn--so I found out
You also might be less likely to be sensitive to it for obvious reasons. There are many things that men simply don't look twice at, that many women would find misogynist because they look at it from a different angle. I don't find the turning of "pimp" into an acceptable verb to be acceptable, mostly because the men who flaunt it seem to be using it in the old and more familiar sense, and are just taking advantage of, or lying about, its meaning in the vernacular. But many men I know who I don't think are misogynists, don't see anything offensive with "pimp my ride."
This says more about the evolution of language. Words adapt to the circumstances that use them. When you judge the word on the basis of the minority that flaunt it isn't that being just a little misandrian. Sure men look on these things differently, and wonder what all the fuss was about when women want to dwell upon something that was never intended. Being offended by the activities of the traditional pimp should not be equated with being offended by the use of the word.
My son for example doesn't find the expression "pimp my ride" and related expressions offensive, and thinks I'm over-reacting that I do find them offended--"It's the vernacular, Mom, that language you adore." Yet, he considers it offensive to call someone a pimp as a compliment.
Sounds like a normal kid. (age? - mine is 17) Then too dealing with real pimps has probably not been part of his personal experiences.
My comment wasn't really about this particular comment though, but that it's so common on Wikipedia for me to hear and come across obviously misogynist exchanges--and it's tiresome to hear announcements of it not being present, by those least likely to encounter it. It's no wonder there are so few women in the upper echelons on Wikipedia, imo, in a culture that is so damn accepting and ignorant of how it makes women outsiders.
It should tell you something that the majority of persons who have been elected the the Board by the community have been women. That's a neat trick to come from an electorate so full of misogynists.
I don't doubt that you have frequently encountered language on the part of others which you consider misogynistic. If it's coming from those "least likely to encounter it" you have disconnect more than you have misogyny. Not everybody is at the same place in the spectrum of gender politics. Those of us with experience in female dominated circumstances are not overly concerned about the gender of the person across the table from us. He or she is simply what he or she is. Gender relations falls apart when you start imputing misogynistic motives that were never there.
Ec
It's no wonder there are so few women in the upper echelons on Wikipedia, imo, in a culture that is so damn accepting and ignorant of how it makes women outsiders.
Many years ago, I started this page: http://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/List_of_WikiWomen
Largely outdated now, but recently, I added a picture there, that you can see on the top left hand side.
I will not comment on the "few women in the upper echelons of Wikipedia", but I can comment on the "very numerous women in the upper echelons of the Foundation". http://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Image:Wikimania_2007_dungodung_79.jpg this is a picture taken at Wikimania, the first wikichix meeting.
From top, going to the right Sue Gardner, head of executive Henna, dev, from netherlands Phoebe, usa, leader of Wikimania 2006 and co-organiser of 2007 Frieda, italian, chair of Wikimedia Italy, board member of WMF Delphine, french, chapter coordinator of WMF Oooops, memory hole... Brianna, australia, wikicommons (keen I think) Another memory hole, shame on me. She is german and very involved in various Wikimedia Deutschland activity. Kat, usa, board member Aphaia, japanese, translation committee head Anthere, chair of WMF Sandy, communication manager
And I could cite many other good people missing here. Angela, previous board member, now chair of advisory board Sabine, new fundraising manager Elly, chair of Wikimedia Netherlands Alison, chair of Wikimedia UK
Why is that that women seem to drift away from editing proper, to deal with more "organization" matters ? Less bullshit probably. Less agressivity. Smaller groups where people know each other. Hard to say. But in the organization proper, I would say there is no mysogyny. If you want to join and help, there is a LOT to do :-)
Ant
On 8/31/07, Florence Devouard Anthere9@yahoo.com wrote: [snip]
I will not comment on the "few women in the upper echelons of Wikipedia", but I can comment on the "very numerous women in the upper echelons of the Foundation". http://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Image:Wikimania_2007_dungodung_79.jpg this is a picture taken at Wikimania, the first wikichix meeting.
From top, going to the right Sue Gardner, head of executive Henna, dev, from netherlands Phoebe, usa, leader of Wikimania 2006 and co-organiser of 2007 Frieda, italian, chair of Wikimedia Italy, board member of WMF Delphine, french, chapter coordinator of WMF Oooops, memory hole... Brianna, australia, wikicommons (keen I think) Another memory hole, shame on me. She is german and very involved in various Wikimedia Deutschland activity. Kat, usa, board member Aphaia, japanese, translation committee head Anthere, chair of WMF Sandy, communication manager
The second "memory hole" (in the black t-shirt) seems to be Nina Gerlach (I *think* but I'm not sure if this is http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Benutzer:Nina). I can't make out who is in the blue top, to Delphine's left.
On misogyny and sexism as engrained practices - it's still quite a sorry state of the world - I wonder if the Wikichix group has developed any resources for the wider community to ponder, and to take action?
Cormac
Cormac Lawler wrote:
On 8/31/07, Florence Devouard Anthere9@yahoo.com wrote: [snip]
I will not comment on the "few women in the upper echelons of Wikipedia", but I can comment on the "very numerous women in the upper echelons of the Foundation". http://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Image:Wikimania_2007_dungodung_79.jpg this is a picture taken at Wikimania, the first wikichix meeting.
From top, going to the right Sue Gardner, head of executive Henna, dev, from netherlands Phoebe, usa, leader of Wikimania 2006 and co-organiser of 2007 Frieda, italian, chair of Wikimedia Italy, board member of WMF Delphine, french, chapter coordinator of WMF Oooops, memory hole... Brianna, australia, wikicommons (keen I think) Another memory hole, shame on me. She is german and very involved in various Wikimedia Deutschland activity. Kat, usa, board member Aphaia, japanese, translation committee head Anthere, chair of WMF Sandy, communication manager
The second "memory hole" (in the black t-shirt) seems to be Nina Gerlach (I *think* but I'm not sure if this is http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Benutzer:Nina). I can't make out who is in the blue top, to Delphine's left.
Absolutely, it is Nina !
On misogyny and sexism as engrained practices - it's still quite a sorry state of the world - I wonder if the Wikichix group has developed any resources for the wider community to ponder, and to take action?
Aside from Conferences such as the LinuxChix Womens, the last main topics of discussion have been child care reimbursement issues (do not let me go again in that one Cormac :-)), childcare made available in conferences (planned for Wikimania 2008, we actually had funds proposed for 2007, but too late to make sense. Next year will be the right one), citizendium (limited female editing), and very recently, cyberstalking (in particular of women).
I would not say we developped any resources really. But I'd say that it is heart warming, and I like it.
ant
Cormac
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Thanks for your perspective and anecdotes Florence.
On 8/31/07, Florence Devouard Anthere9@yahoo.com wrote:
Cormac Lawler wrote:
On 8/31/07, Florence Devouard Anthere9@yahoo.com wrote: [snip]
I will not comment on the "few women in the upper echelons of Wikipedia", but I can comment on the "very numerous women in the upper echelons of the Foundation". http://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Image:Wikimania_2007_dungodung_79.jpg this is a picture taken at Wikimania, the first wikichix meeting.
From top, going to the right Sue Gardner, head of executive Henna, dev, from netherlands Phoebe, usa, leader of Wikimania 2006 and co-organiser of 2007 Frieda, italian, chair of Wikimedia Italy, board member of WMF Delphine, french, chapter coordinator of WMF Oooops, memory hole... Brianna, australia, wikicommons (keen I think) Another memory hole, shame on me. She is german and very involved in various Wikimedia Deutschland activity. Kat, usa, board member Aphaia, japanese, translation committee head Anthere, chair of WMF Sandy, communication manager
The second "memory hole" (in the black t-shirt) seems to be Nina Gerlach (I *think* but I'm not sure if this is http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Benutzer:Nina). I can't make out who is in the blue top, to Delphine's left.
Absolutely, it is Nina !
On misogyny and sexism as engrained practices - it's still quite a sorry state of the world - I wonder if the Wikichix group has developed any resources for the wider community to ponder, and to take action?
Aside from Conferences such as the LinuxChix Womens, the last main topics of discussion have been child care reimbursement issues (do not let me go again in that one Cormac :-)), childcare made available in conferences (planned for Wikimania 2008, we actually had funds proposed for 2007, but too late to make sense. Next year will be the right one), citizendium (limited female editing), and very recently, cyberstalking (in particular of women).
I would not say we developped any resources really. But I'd say that it is heart warming, and I like it.
ant
Cormac
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On 8/31/07, Florence Devouard Anthere9@yahoo.com wrote:
Why is that that women seem to drift away from editing proper, to deal with more "organization" matters ? Less bullshit probably. Less agressivity. Smaller groups where people know each other. Hard to say. But in the organization proper, I would say there is no mysogyny. If you want to join and help, there is a LOT to do :-)
Ant
I have no idea what the Foundation is or the organizational structure of anything, and was really just talking about en-Wikipedia. I edit on a few other Wikipedias, the Polish and Spanish ones on occasion, but they're different.
I like editing, doing research in the sciences. It's something I've done for a living on and off for much of my life, and it enhances what I do now for a living, which consumes so much time, I can barely function, so I'm an unlikely candidate for volunteering in organization. When I have extra time one day, I'll look around and see who's who, what's what in the upper echelons. Thanks for the note.
KP
K P wrote:
On 8/31/07, Florence Devouard Anthere9@yahoo.com wrote:
Why is that that women seem to drift away from editing proper, to deal with more "organization" matters ? Less bullshit probably. Less agressivity. Smaller groups where people know each other. Hard to say. But in the organization proper, I would say there is no mysogyny. If you want to join and help, there is a LOT to do :-)
Ant
I have no idea what the Foundation is or the organizational structure of anything, and was really just talking about en-Wikipedia. I edit on a few other Wikipedias, the Polish and Spanish ones on occasion, but they're different.
I like editing, doing research in the sciences. It's something I've done for a living on and off for much of my life, and it enhances what I do now for a living, which consumes so much time, I can barely function, so I'm an unlikely candidate for volunteering in organization. When I have extra time one day, I'll look around and see who's who, what's what in the upper echelons. Thanks for the note.
KP
In its simplest and most obvious role, the Foundation (aka Wikimedia Foundation, aka wmf) is the organization operating Wikipedia.
More precisely: The Wikimedia Foundation, Inc. is a nonprofit charitable organization dedicated to encouraging the growth, development and distribution of free, multilingual content, and to providing the full content of these wiki-based projects to the public free of charge.
http://wikimediafoundation.org/wiki/Home and http://wikimediafoundation.org/wiki/Frequently_Asked_Questions (though I should update some parts...)
What are volunteers involved in ? * Helping with the press (interviews, working on press kits etc...) * Participating in conferences * Organizing conferences (such as Wikimania) or various colloques, or simply wikimeets * Helping with fundraising (one is planned in roughly one month from now) * Helping with the software * Servers and network * setting up CDs or DVDs or wikireaders of content * scanning old books
Etc...
There are other skills, more specialized, that volunteers can provide. For example, helping on the audit committee (we are in the middle of the audit for operations between june 06 till may 07 - I expect audit outcome will be published in one month or so).
The latest hot topic of the organization was Wikimania 2007 (http://wikimania2007.wikimedia.org/wiki/Main_Page)
The hot topics of the moment are * Audit 2007 * Wikimania 2008 bid and selection * Fundraising 2007 * Budget (very internal, should be approved in october 07) * For several chapters, some colloques are being organized (eg, Wikimedia France in october on quality issues, Wikimedia Netherlands in october on education issues)
There are other things to do :-)
ant
Florence Devouard wrote:
Ray Saintonge wrote:
K P wrote:
My comment wasn't really about this particular comment though, but that it's so common on Wikipedia for me to hear and come across obviously misogynist exchanges--and it's tiresome to hear announcements of it not being present, by those least likely to encounter it. It's no wonder there are so few women in the upper echelons on Wikipedia, imo, in a culture that is so damn accepting and ignorant of how it makes women outsiders.
It should tell you something that the majority of persons who have been elected the the Board by the community have been women. That's a neat trick to come from an electorate so full of misogynists.
I don't doubt that you have frequently encountered language on the part of others which you consider misogynistic. If it's coming from those "least likely to encounter it" you have disconnect more than you have misogyny. Not everybody is at the same place in the spectrum of gender politics. Those of us with experience in female dominated circumstances are not overly concerned about the gender of the person across the table from us. He or she is simply what he or she is. Gender relations falls apart when you start imputing misogynistic motives that were never there.
It's no wonder there are so few women in the upper echelons on Wikipedia, imo, in a culture that is so damn accepting and ignorant of how it makes women outsiders.
Saying that underlines the importance of maintaining an open dialogue. Those who choose to put "pimp" in a user box or a user name will always be a small minority. The first victims of such actions will be their own credibility. Oddly enough, it is probably the most dangerous among the males who will do the most to keep this infantile segment in order. They have a highly developed sense of order that does not adjust well to variations in factual circumstances. If bullying is required to achieve their vision of perfection that is the tactic that they use with complete indifference to the gender of the person they oppose.
The gender divide on Wikpedia is rarely a question of open misogyny. Dealing with it will require a lot more understanding on both sides. It means toning down needless aggression, and it also means giving due weight to what motivates an act. Is all this really just about the inopportune use of words?
I will not comment on the "few women in the upper echelons of Wikipedia", but I can comment on the "very numerous women in the upper echelons of the Foundation".
What conclusion can be drawn from the simple fact that of all the elected Board members Erik is the only male. The number of male candites in each instance has outnumbered the females, as have the number of voters.
Why is that that women seem to drift away from editing proper, to deal with more "organization" matters ? Less bullshit probably. Less agressivity. Smaller groups where people know each other. Hard to say.
The matters of bullshit, agressivity and small groups are not problems that affect only women. Coping with that is not made any easier by being male. It means sticking one's neck out without any confidence that like-minded others will join in.
But in the organization proper, I would say there is no mysogyny. If you want to join and help, there is a LOT to do :-)
Huh??? You're inviting men to join wiki-chix??? =-O
Ec
Ray Saintonge wrote:
But in the organization proper, I would say there is no mysogyny. If you want to join and help, there is a LOT to do :-)
Huh??? You're inviting men to join wiki-chix??? =-O
Ec
No way !
Ec, I have met you three times already, and I am pretty sure you are a guy, even though your gentleness is to be noted :-) (/me runs away)
Organization -> wmf and chapters, tsss. Once there is a Wikimedia Canada, I hope you'll be on it ;-)
Florence Devouard wrote:
Ray Saintonge wrote:
But in the organization proper, I would say there is no mysogyny. If you want to join and help, there is a LOT to do :-)
Huh??? You're inviting men to join wiki-chix??? =-O
No way !
Ec, I have met you three times already, and I am pretty sure you are a guy, even though your gentleness is to be noted :-) (/me runs away)
Thanks. No need to run away from gentleness. :-)
I would have felt decidedly uncomfortable if you had said that gentleness in a male qualified him for membership in Wiki-chix. By way of suggestion for Wikimania 2008, a meeting between the core of Wiki-chix and an invited assortment of relatively sympathetic males could explore ways of breaking down some of the barriers.
Ec
On 8/31/07, Florence Devouard Anthere9@yahoo.com wrote:
I will not comment on the "few women in the upper echelons of Wikipedia", but I can comment on the "very numerous women in the upper echelons of the Foundation". http://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Image:Wikimania_2007_dungodung_79.jpg this is a picture taken at Wikimania, the first wikichix meeting.
From top, going to the right Sue Gardner, head of executive Henna, dev, from netherlands Phoebe, usa, leader of Wikimania 2006 and co-organiser of 2007 Frieda, italian, chair of Wikimedia Italy, board member of WMF Delphine, french, chapter coordinator of WMF Oooops, memory hole... Brianna, australia, wikicommons (keen I think) Another memory hole, shame on me. She is german and very involved in various Wikimedia Deutschland activity. Kat, usa, board member Aphaia, japanese, translation committee head Anthere, chair of WMF Sandy, communication manager
And I could cite many other good people missing here. Angela, previous board member, now chair of advisory board Sabine, new fundraising manager Elly, chair of Wikimedia Netherlands Alison, chair of Wikimedia UK
The 'memory holes' are Kate, English Wikipedian, admin and GIS expert, and Nina from the German chapter. Also missing from this picture: KJ and Frances, two of the top organizers in the Taiwan team for the 2007 conference; and the dozens of other women who were present as organizers, presenters and attendees (we just had an informal gathering, with little publicity). As a very subjective and imprecise guess, I'd say there were more women present at 2007's conference than in 2006; and certainly more in 2006 than in 2005. It's hard to say whether the in-person conferences represent the body of editors and contributors as a whole; but there are certainly more female editors in the projects than folks seem to be assuming.
-- phoebe
On 8/30/07, K P kpbotany@gmail.com wrote:
On 8/28/07, Steven Walling steven.walling@gmail.com wrote:
Don't be so quick to judge. I didn't say it didn't exist. I said I didn't know what incident she was talking about, and I couldn't think of any examples of blatant misogyny on-wiki from personal experience. Don't assume my experience encompasses everything on-wiki, and certainly not what you or anyone else has. I didn't say a "pimpmasta123" name or a pimp userbox wasn't misogynist, I said I'd never heard of it.
On 8/28/07, K P kpbotany@gmail.com wrote:
On 8/28/07, Steven Walling steven.walling@gmail.com wrote:
What thread are you speaking of? Have you really been attacked as a
woman
authority figure on-wiki by anyone other than vandals? I mean, I
wouldn't be
surprised, but I don't think I've ever seen any cases of outright
misogyny.
Usually people are too focused on the faggot, N-bomb, commie-pinko,
faggot,
nerd, faggot, loser vein to bother to say "get back in the kitchen,
stupid
woman". Or maybe it's that there are so few female Wikipedians that it hasn't had the opportunity to crop up yet...which might be even worse an issue, imo
On 8/28/07, Durova nadezhda.durova@gmail.com wrote:
In respect to a thread here and a recent private discussion I'll
highlight
the valuable side effects of misogyny.
*Misogyny discredits the individual who possesses it.* From a
distance it
may not be obvious which side of a dispute can supply better evidence, but open bigotry sure as heck is obvious.
*Misogyny relieves me of regrets.* Sometimes I second guess myself
after
I use the sysop tools. A sexist quip clears my conscience. I go away
happy
to be the sysop and equally happy the fellow is blocked or banned.
*Misogyny is the perfect troll. * I'm not above a little
*schadenfreude*;
I think it's hilarious. Misogyny generates misery among a certain set
of
people who are basically unpleasant anyway and wastes huge amounts of their time and energy. Best of all, I break zero rules and keep all my
online
buddies while they make themselves despised and sometimes even
endanger
their careers.
Oh please, calling oneself a pimp as a user name and saying, "Gotta
You also might be less likely to be sensitive to it for obvious reasons. There are many things that men simply don't look twice at, that many women would find misogynist because they look at it from a different angle. I don't find the turning of "pimp" into an acceptable verb to be acceptable, mostly because the men who flaunt it seem to be using it in the old and more familiar sense, and are just taking advantage of, or lying about, its meaning in the vernacular. But many men I know who I don't think are misogynists, don't see anything offensive with "pimp my ride."
My son for example doesn't find the expression "pimp my ride" and related expressions offensive, and thinks I'm over-reacting that I do find them offended--"It's the vernacular, Mom, that language you adore." Yet, he considers it offensive to call someone a pimp as a compliment.
These things drift with the times as well. At one time (the shakespearean/elizabethan age), "punque" used to refer to underage male prostitutes. Today calling a male child "you little punk", wouldn't be perceived as offensive by many.
-- Jussi-Ville Heiskanen, ~ [[User:Cimon Avaro]]
* Misogyny, or the accusation thereof, is the perfect troll. * or better yet, * Digital misogyny, or the accusation thereof, is the perfect troll. *
-stevertigo
On 8/28/07, Durova nadezhda.durova@gmail.com wrote:
In respect to a thread here and a recent private discussion I'll highlight the valuable side effects of misogyny.
*Misogyny discredits the individual who possesses it.* From a distance it may not be obvious which side of a dispute can supply better evidence, but open bigotry sure as heck is obvious.
*Misogyny relieves me of regrets.* Sometimes I second guess myself after I use the sysop tools. A sexist quip clears my conscience. I go away happy to be the sysop and equally happy the fellow is blocked or banned.
*Misogyny is the perfect troll. * I'm not above a little *schadenfreude*; I think it's hilarious. Misogyny generates misery among a certain set of people who are basically unpleasant anyway and wastes huge amounts of their time and energy. Best of all, I break zero rules and keep all my online buddies while they make themselves despised and sometimes even endanger their careers.