http://www.lisnews.org/encyclopedic_knowledge_then_vs_now
Nice comment on this article:
"Some say that all software loaded on a local machine will soon be obsolete, so it's not a problem with Encarta, but with technology. I wonder if Wikipedia will be here 10 years from now, with it's long-winded entries, when Twitterpedia tells me everything I need to know in 140 characters or less. You should read the Twitterpedia version of the Peloponnesian War. Soon, that's all we'll be able to comprehend, 140 characters or less.
"(okay, there is no Twitterpedia,... not a real one, anyway.)"
So. Who's going to start Twitterpedia?
- d.
2009/5/5 David Gerard dgerard@gmail.com:
http://www.lisnews.org/encyclopedic_knowledge_then_vs_now
Nice comment on this article:
"Some say that all software loaded on a local machine will soon be obsolete, so it's not a problem with Encarta, but with technology. I wonder if Wikipedia will be here 10 years from now, with it's long-winded entries, when Twitterpedia tells me everything I need to know in 140 characters or less. You should read the Twitterpedia version of the Peloponnesian War. Soon, that's all we'll be able to comprehend, 140 characters or less.
"(okay, there is no Twitterpedia,... not a real one, anyway.)"
So. Who's going to start Twitterpedia?
- d.
Effectively thats what the opening sentences of wikipedia articles should already be (with the opening paras being the summery wikipedia).
2009/5/5 geni geniice@gmail.com:
2009/5/5 David Gerard dgerard@gmail.com:
know in 140 characters or less. You should read the Twitterpedia version of the Peloponnesian War. Soon, that's all we'll be able to comprehend, 140 characters or less.
Effectively thats what the opening sentences of wikipedia articles should already be (with the opening paras being the summery wikipedia).
"The Peloponnesian War, which lasted from 431-404BC, was an Ancient Greek military war, fought by Athens and its empire against the Peloponnesian League, led by Sparta."
That's 167 characters. Think we could get a 140 character requirement added to [[Wikipedia:Lead section]]?
- d.
2009/5/5 David Gerard dgerard@gmail.com
"The Peloponnesian War, which lasted from 431-404BC, was an Ancient Greek military war, fought by Athens and its empire against the Peloponnesian League, led by Sparta."
That's 167 characters. Think we could get a 140 character requirement added to [[Wikipedia:Lead section]]?
"The Peloponnesian War (431-404BC), was an Ancient Greek war between Athens and its empire against the Peloponnesian League, led by Sparta."?
:)
Michel
On Mon, May 4, 2009 at 5:03 PM, Michel Vuijlsteke wikipedia@zog.org wrote:
2009/5/5 David Gerard dgerard@gmail.com
"The Peloponnesian War, which lasted from 431-404BC, was an Ancient Greek military war, fought by Athens and its empire against the Peloponnesian League, led by Sparta."
That's 167 characters. Think we could get a 140 character requirement added to [[Wikipedia:Lead section]]?
"The Peloponnesian War (431-404BC), was an Ancient Greek war between Athens and its empire against the Peloponnesian League, led by Sparta."?
:)
No functionality for links? For shame...
I developed an entire user help system once which required that all information be one 23x80 character text frame, including a line of navigation info and a line of the next prompt (useful: 21x80). That was quite a challenge.
Wrapping a useful amount of encyclopedic info into Tweets is possible but extremely painful. Especially as there's no links.
On Tue, May 5, 2009 at 1:16 AM, George Herbert george.herbert@gmail.com wrote:
On Mon, May 4, 2009 at 5:03 PM, Michel Vuijlsteke wikipedia@zog.org wrote:
2009/5/5 David Gerard dgerard@gmail.com
"The Peloponnesian War, which lasted from 431-404BC, was an Ancient Greek military war, fought by Athens and its empire against the Peloponnesian League, led by Sparta."
That's 167 characters. Think we could get a 140 character requirement added to [[Wikipedia:Lead section]]?
"The Peloponnesian War (431-404BC), was an Ancient Greek war between Athens and its empire against the Peloponnesian League, led by Sparta."?
:)
No functionality for links? For shame...
No images either...
Talking of images:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Alliances_in_the_Pelopennesian_War,_431_B....
There is a typo in the image text for that one: "strategies" (in the actual image itself).
Who could correct that?
Carcharoth
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1
Carcharoth a écrit :
On Tue, May 5, 2009 at 1:16 AM, George Herbert
george.herbert@gmail.com wrote:
On Mon, May 4, 2009 at 5:03 PM, Michel Vuijlsteke wikipedia@zog.org
wrote:
2009/5/5 David Gerard dgerard@gmail.com
"The Peloponnesian War, which lasted from 431-404BC, was an Ancient Greek military war, fought by Athens and its empire against the Peloponnesian League, led by Sparta."
That's 167 characters. Think we could get a 140 character requirement added to [[Wikipedia:Lead section]]?
"The Peloponnesian War (431-404BC), was an Ancient Greek war between
Athens
and its empire against the Peloponnesian League, led by Sparta."?
:)
No functionality for links? For shame...
No images either...
Talking of images:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Alliances_in_the_Pelopennesian_War,_431_B....
There is a typo in the image text for that one: "strategies" (in the actual image itself).
Who could correct that?
As well as make it into a PNG or even better, an SVG file...
Cary
As a funny aside, Gmail has parsed this conversation and is prompting me to add the following to my calendar:
*Add to calendar* Peloponnesian War Sun Apr 25, 2010 4:31pm
That time works for me if it works for everyone else I suppose... Might want to inform Greece though.
--Falcorian
2009/5/5 Falcorian alex.public.account+ENWikiMailingList@gmail.com:
As a funny aside, Gmail has parsed this conversation and is prompting me to add the following to my calendar:
*Add to calendar* Peloponnesian War Sun Apr 25, 2010 4:31pm
That time works for me if it works for everyone else I suppose... Might want to inform Greece though.
Beautiful! One has to love Google!
"Carcharoth" carcharothwp@googlemail.com wrote in message news:206791b10905050402n3ffef0f1gb166aa499f6106be@mail.gmail.com...
On Tue, May 5, 2009 at 1:16 AM, George Herbert george.herbert@gmail.com wrote:
On Mon, May 4, 2009 at 5:03 PM, Michel Vuijlsteke wikipedia@zog.org wrote:
2009/5/5 David Gerard dgerard@gmail.com
"The Peloponnesian War, which lasted from 431-404BC, was an Ancient Greek military war, fought by Athens and its empire against the Peloponnesian League, led by Sparta."
That's 167 characters. Think we could get a 140 character requirement added to [[Wikipedia:Lead section]]?
"The Peloponnesian War (431-404BC), was an Ancient Greek war between Athens and its empire against the Peloponnesian League, led by Sparta."?
:)
No functionality for links? For shame...
No images either...
Talking of images:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Alliances_in_the_Pelopennesian_War,_431_B....
There is a typo in the image text for that one: "strategies" (in the actual image itself).
Who could correct that?
I could chaynj it to "stratejeez" if I could find a meat puppet. _______ Puppetability; Marionettay: How easily a proctologist could make you talk.
George Herbert wrote:
I developed an entire user help system once which required that all information be one 23x80 character text frame, including a line of navigation info and a line of the next prompt (useful: 21x80). That was quite a challenge.
Wrapping a useful amount of encyclopedic info into Tweets is possible but extremely painful. Especially as there's no links.
Even if it could be done, the Wikipedia system of rules would not be so amenable.
Ec
On Tue, May 5, 2009 at 11:14 AM, Ray Saintonge saintonge@telus.net wrote:
George Herbert wrote:
I developed an entire user help system once which required that all information be one 23x80 character text frame, including a line of navigation info and a line of the next prompt (useful: 21x80). That was quite a challenge.
Wrapping a useful amount of encyclopedic info into Tweets is possible but extremely painful. Especially as there's no links.
Even if it could be done, the Wikipedia system of rules would not be so amenable.
The english Wikipedia system is predicated on a high-multimedia potential, for our purposes unlimited length format, where ability to source detailed information and have long arguments about prominence of key ideas in the article is a good thing.
Having only 140 characters to work with (or even 1600ish, as my example) is a limit which would require entirely different approaches.
Writing smaller is harder - people able to wordsmith will move to the prominence somewhat.
Identifying the 5ish key facts (who, what, when, where, why, etc) for any topic is probably easier than figuring out how to write a NPOV 10,000 word article on a contentious issue.
On Tue, May 5, 2009 at 7:22 PM, George Herbert george.herbert@gmail.comwrote:
Having only 140 characters to work with (or even 1600ish, as my example) is a limit which would require entirely different approaches.
Writing smaller is harder - people able to wordsmith will move to the prominence somewhat.
Identifying the 5ish key facts (who, what, when, where, why, etc) for any topic is probably easier than figuring out how to write a NPOV 10,000 word article on a contentious issue.
-- -george william herbert
Very true. And hot on its heels, the predictable twitterpedia sequel follows:
- user#217869: pov warring!! - @83476238 not so! - @217869 is so!! - @83476238 not so! - @both: u blocked 24 hrs 3rr - @admin plz no? - @217869 o ok - @admin kthxbai - @83476238 u block I not u suxxor pov war!!! - @admin u involved,, @arbcom plzdesysopkthx? - @user no wai!! - ..........
FT2
"George Herbert" george.herbert@gmail.com wrote in message news:38a7bf7c0905051122p21b2e13bn6d44e860fee4f127@mail.gmail.com...
On Tue, May 5, 2009 at 11:14 AM, Ray Saintonge saintonge@telus.net wrote:
George Herbert wrote:
I developed an entire user help system once which required that all information be one 23x80 character text frame, including a line of navigation info and a line of the next prompt (useful: 21x80). That was quite a challenge.
Wrapping a useful amount of encyclopedic info into Tweets is possible but extremely painful. Especially as there's no links.
Even if it could be done, the Wikipedia system of rules would not be so amenable.
The english Wikipedia system is predicated on a high-multimedia potential, for our purposes unlimited length format, where ability to source detailed information and have long arguments about prominence of key ideas in the article is a good thing.
Having only 140 characters to work with (or even 1600ish, as my example) is a limit which would require entirely different approaches.
Writing smaller is harder - people able to wordsmith will move to the prominence somewhat.
Identifying the 5ish key facts (who, what, when, where, why, etc) for any topic is probably easier than figuring out how to write a NPOV 10,000 word article on a contentious issue.
It is a matter of organization that is hard. Lead sentences and paragraphs are important, though, because you are supposed to repeat them at the end of an essay, with other words, perhaps. In an article like [[prion]] or anything else that challenjez precepts, repeating the lead would be as contentious as trying to rewrite the lead. IOW, summaries and nutshells are rare in wikipedia, outside of what is explicitly an essay. _______ I hav not tried one mix that I recommended, once: Sambuca and Root Beer.
Redundant text - "the X war was a war" duh :) Try this:
"The Peloponnesian War (Ancient Greece, 431-404BC), took place between Athens and its empire, against the Eponymous League led by Sparta. Rock on!"
(Noting that "Eponymous" has fewer characters than "Peloponnesian"...)
And there's room left over for a link to an image of a penis. How cool's that!
FT2
-----Original Message----- From: FT2 ft2.wiki@gmail.com To: English Wikipedia wikien-l@lists.wikimedia.org Sent: Tue, 5 May 2009 12:35 am Subject: Re: [WikiEN-l] Twitterpedia will win
Redundant text - "the X war was a war" duh :) Try this:
"The Peloponnesian War (Ancient Greece, 431-404BC), took place between Athens and its empire, against the Eponymous League led by Sparta. Rock on!">>
--------------------- Why do you have to state "Ancient Greece" ? And remove "The" Also "was" is much shorter than "took place"
"Peloponnesian War (431-404BC), Athens and its empire, against the Spartan-led Eponymous League."
Much shorter!
What do I win!
2009/5/5 wjhonson@aol.com:
-----Original Message----- From: FT2 ft2.wiki@gmail.com To: English Wikipedia wikien-l@lists.wikimedia.org Sent: Tue, 5 May 2009 12:35 am Subject: Re: [WikiEN-l] Twitterpedia will win
Redundant text - "the X war was a war" duh :) Try this:
"The Peloponnesian War (Ancient Greece, 431-404BC), took place between Athens and its empire, against the Eponymous League led by Sparta. Rock on!">>
Why do you have to state "Ancient Greece" ? And remove "The" Also "was" is much shorter than "took place"
"Peloponnesian War (431-404BC), Athens and its empire, against the Spartan-led Eponymous League."
"Peloponnesian War (431-404BC), Athens and its empire vs Spartan-led Eponymous League."
On Tue, May 5, 2009 at 11:25 AM, geni geniice@gmail.com wrote:
2009/5/5 wjhonson@aol.com:
-----Original Message----- From: FT2 ft2.wiki@gmail.com To: English Wikipedia wikien-l@lists.wikimedia.org Sent: Tue, 5 May 2009 12:35 am Subject: Re: [WikiEN-l] Twitterpedia will win
Redundant text - "the X war was a war" duh :) Try this:
"The Peloponnesian War (Ancient Greece, 431-404BC), took place between Athens and its empire, against the Eponymous League led by Sparta. Rock on!">>
Why do you have to state "Ancient Greece" ? And remove "The" Also "was" is much shorter than "took place"
"Peloponnesian War (431-404BC), Athens and its empire, against the Spartan-led Eponymous League."
"Peloponnesian War (431-404BC), Athens and its empire vs Spartan-led Eponymous League."
"Eponymous" could be confusing. Repeating the word Peloponnesian is less confusing.
Carcharoth
That is why Twitterpedia also has an article on "eponymous", of course. Naturally all measurements are in metric however, so it's the "Eponymous 4.8km" (approx)
FT2
On Tue, May 5, 2009 at 11:45 AM, Carcharoth carcharothwp@googlemail.comwrote:
On Tue, May 5, 2009 at 11:25 AM, geni geniice@gmail.com wrote:
2009/5/5 wjhonson@aol.com:
-----Original Message----- From: FT2 ft2.wiki@gmail.com To: English Wikipedia wikien-l@lists.wikimedia.org Sent: Tue, 5 May 2009 12:35 am Subject: Re: [WikiEN-l] Twitterpedia will win
Redundant text - "the X war was a war" duh :) Try this:
"The Peloponnesian War (Ancient Greece, 431-404BC), took place between Athens and its empire, against the Eponymous League led by Sparta. Rock on!">>
Why do you have to state "Ancient Greece" ? And remove "The" Also "was" is much shorter than "took place"
"Peloponnesian War (431-404BC), Athens and its empire, against the Spartan-led Eponymous League."
"Peloponnesian War (431-404BC), Athens and its empire vs Spartan-led Eponymous League."
"Eponymous" could be confusing. Repeating the word Peloponnesian is less confusing.
Carcharoth
On Tue, May 5, 2009 at 11:13 AM, wjhonson@aol.com wrote:
-----Original Message----- From: FT2 ft2.wiki@gmail.com To: English Wikipedia wikien-l@lists.wikimedia.org Sent: Tue, 5 May 2009 12:35 am Subject: Re: [WikiEN-l] Twitterpedia will win
Redundant text - "the X war was a war" duh :) Try this:
"The Peloponnesian War (Ancient Greece, 431-404BC), took place between Athens and its empire, against the Eponymous League led by Sparta. Rock on!">>
Why do you have to state "Ancient Greece" ? And remove "The" Also "was" is much shorter than "took place"
"Peloponnesian War (431-404BC), Athens and its empire, against the Spartan-led Eponymous League."
Much shorter!
Eventually, the shortening ends up in the telegraphese beloved of newspaper headline writers and infobox entries. Here is the infobox data from the article (minus the map):
Peloponnesian War Date: c. 431–April 25, 404 BC Location: Mainland Greece, Asia Minor, Sicily Result: Peloponnesian League victory Territorial changes: Dissolution of the Delian League Belligerents: Delian League (led by Athens) ; Peloponnesian League (led by Sparta) Commanders (Delian League): Pericles, Cleon, Nicias, Alcibiades, Demosthenes Commander (Peloponnesian League): Archidamus II, Brasidas, Lysander, Alcibiades
None of the summaries so far have mentioned the result of the war, nor the name of the Delian League, nor the location of the war. The names of the commanders should be omitted.
And sometimes it is the *last* sentence of a well-written lede section that gets to the heart of the matter:
"Shattering religious and cultural taboos, devastating vast swathes of countryside, and destroying whole cities -- the Peloponnesian War marked the dramatic end to the fifth-century-B.C. golden age of Greece."
That told me more than the dry facts of the first sentence (which is also needed). The initial sentence of the middle paragraph is important as well: "The Peloponnesian War reshaped the Ancient Greek world."
And I still think the Wikipedia-articles-as-poetry option could be interesting! :-)
Carcharoth
On Tue, May 5, 2009 at 12:48 AM, David Gerard dgerard@gmail.com wrote:
2009/5/5 geni geniice@gmail.com:
2009/5/5 David Gerard dgerard@gmail.com:
know in 140 characters or less. You should read the Twitterpedia version of the Peloponnesian War. Soon, that's all we'll be able to comprehend, 140 characters or less.
Effectively thats what the opening sentences of wikipedia articles should already be (with the opening paras being the summery wikipedia).
"The Peloponnesian War, which lasted from 431-404BC, was an Ancient Greek military war, fought by Athens and its empire against the Peloponnesian League, led by Sparta."
Flabby wording with lots of redundancy.
That's 167 characters. Think we could get a 140 character requirement added to [[Wikipedia:Lead section]]?
"The Peloponnesian War (431-404BC): Athens and its empire fought the Peloponnesian League, led by Sparta."
The phrasing "Ancient Greek military war" is horrible in so many ways.
Better still, have poetic summaries of Wikipedia articles:
"In days of yore, in Ancient Greece on the wine-dark sea and over the olive-clad hills Athenian hoplites did battle with Spartan warriors over the islands of the Peloponnese"
After Wikipedia Art, we have Wikipedia Poetry? Using Wikipedia articles as the inspiration for poems?
Carcharoth
-----Original Message----- From: Carcharoth carcharothwp@googlemail.com To: English Wikipedia wikien-l@lists.wikimedia.org Sent: Mon, 4 May 2009 5:11 pm Subject: Re: [WikiEN-l] Twitterpedia will win
"The Peloponnesian War (431-404BC): Athens and its empire fought the Peloponnesian League, led by Sparta.">> ---------------------------
"The" is superfluous. "Spartan-led" cuts two more spaces ;)
W.J.
Carcharoth wrote:
On Tue, May 5, 2009 at 12:48 AM, David Gerard dgerard@gmail.com wrote:
2009/5/5 geni geniice@gmail.com:
2009/5/5 David Gerard dgerard@gmail.com:
know in 140 characters or less. You should read the Twitterpedia version of the Peloponnesian War. Soon, that's all we'll be able to comprehend, 140 characters or less.
Effectively thats what the opening sentences of wikipedia articles should already be (with the opening paras being the summery wikipedia).
"The Peloponnesian War, which lasted from 431-404BC, was an Ancient Greek military war, fought by Athens and its empire against the Peloponnesian League, led by Sparta."
Flabby wording with lots of redundancy.
That's 167 characters. Think we could get a 140 character requirement added to [[Wikipedia:Lead section]]?
"The Peloponnesian War (431-404BC): Athens and its empire fought the Peloponnesian League, led by Sparta."
The phrasing "Ancient Greek military war" is horrible in so many ways.
Better still, have poetic summaries of Wikipedia articles:
"In days of yore, in Ancient Greece on the wine-dark sea and over the olive-clad hills Athenian hoplites did battle with Spartan warriors over the islands of the Peloponnese"
After Wikipedia Art, we have Wikipedia Poetry? Using Wikipedia articles as the inspiration for poems?
This brings us full circle to pre-literate times when the great epics were passed on by rote. Putting them in verse facilitated memorization. It also facilitated official misunderstandings of Biblical proportions. Twitter and the short attention span of those who favour it turn historical insight into inanity. Linking the "wine-dark sea" to the later Peloponnesian Wars already separates us from its association with the death of Patroclus in the Iliad.
Ec
On Tue, May 5, 2009 at 7:10 PM, Ray Saintonge saintonge@telus.net wrote:
Carcharoth wrote:
On Tue, May 5, 2009 at 12:48 AM, David Gerard dgerard@gmail.com wrote:
2009/5/5 geni geniice@gmail.com:
2009/5/5 David Gerard dgerard@gmail.com:
know in 140 characters or less. You should read the Twitterpedia version of the Peloponnesian War. Soon, that's all we'll be able to comprehend, 140 characters or less.
Effectively thats what the opening sentences of wikipedia articles should already be (with the opening paras being the summery wikipedia).
"The Peloponnesian War, which lasted from 431-404BC, was an Ancient Greek military war, fought by Athens and its empire against the Peloponnesian League, led by Sparta."
Flabby wording with lots of redundancy.
That's 167 characters. Think we could get a 140 character requirement added to [[Wikipedia:Lead section]]?
"The Peloponnesian War (431-404BC): Athens and its empire fought the Peloponnesian League, led by Sparta."
The phrasing "Ancient Greek military war" is horrible in so many ways.
Better still, have poetic summaries of Wikipedia articles:
"In days of yore, in Ancient Greece on the wine-dark sea and over the olive-clad hills Athenian hoplites did battle with Spartan warriors over the islands of the Peloponnese"
After Wikipedia Art, we have Wikipedia Poetry? Using Wikipedia articles as the inspiration for poems?
This brings us full circle to pre-literate times when the great epics were passed on by rote. Putting them in verse facilitated memorization.
Ah. Oral tradition:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oral_tradition
Indeed full circle, as you say.
It also facilitated official misunderstandings of Biblical proportions. Twitter and the short attention span of those who favour it turn historical insight into inanity. Linking the "wine-dark sea" to the later Peloponnesian Wars already separates us from its association with the death of Patroclus in the Iliad.
Predictably, there is a book with this title:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Wine-Dark_Sea
Thankfully we have an article on epithets in Homer:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Epithets_in_Homer
Which has fascinating linguistic details.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Storytelling
Discusses the "the wine-dark sea" as a standard phrase used in oral story-telling.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Epic_poetry
"Epithet: Heavy use of repetition or stock phrases: e.g., Homer's "rosy-fingered dawn" and "wine-dark sea.""
But looking at the other search results gives a flavour for how poetic phrases and epithets can be used in a language:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Over_the_Wine_Dark_Sea http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Robert_Aickman http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Leonardo_Sciascia http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/William_Henry_Scott_(historian) http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fatos_Tarifa
Those are five examples of stories and books using the phrase in their title.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Michael_Alec_Rose
"Wine-Dark Sea" for solo viola (1988), 3 minutes.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Wettest_Stories_Ever_Told
Some obscure Simpsons reference: "The Whine-Bar Sea".
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Golden_mean_(philosophy)
References include another book with this phrase in the title.
I saved the best (or worse) until last:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Muon-catalyzed_fusion
Buried deep in a footnote is this flight of poetic prose:
"...there has almost certainly never been even one p-d electron-catalyzed fusion (eCF) in all the vast wine-dark seas covering about three-quarters of the face of the Earth during all the long eons that water has existed here..."
Sadly, that isn't quoted, so it probably not suitable for an encyclopedia. Or it is quoted and should be cited.
Carcharoth
Carcharoth wrote:
On Tue, May 5, 2009 at 7:10 PM, Ray Saintonge saintonge@telus.net wrote:
Carcharoth wrote:
On Tue, May 5, 2009 at 12:48 AM, David Gerard dgerard@gmail.com wrote:
"The Peloponnesian War, which lasted from 431-404BC, was an Ancient Greek military war, fought by Athens and its empire against the Peloponnesian League, led by Sparta."
Flabby wording with lots of redundancy
That's 167 characters. Think we could get a 140 character requirement added to [[Wikipedia:Lead section]]
"The Peloponnesian War (431-404BC): Athens and its empire fought the Peloponnesian League, led by Sparta."
The phrasing "Ancient Greek military war" is horrible in so many ways.
Better still, have poetic summaries of Wikipedia articles:
"In days of yore, in Ancient Greece on the wine-dark sea and over the olive-clad hills Athenian hoplites did battle with Spartan warriors over the islands of the Peloponnese"
After Wikipedia Art, we have Wikipedia Poetry? Using Wikipedia articles as the inspiration for poems?
This brings us full circle to pre-literate times when the great epics were passed on by rote. Putting them in verse facilitated memorization.
Ah. Oral tradition:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oral_tradition
Indeed full circle, as you say.
It also facilitated official misunderstandings of Biblical proportions. Twitter and the short attention span of those who favour it turn historical insight into inanity. Linking the "wine-dark sea" to the later Peloponnesian Wars already separates us from its association with the death of Patroclus in the Iliad.
Predictably, there is a book with this title:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Wine-Dark_Sea
Thankfully we have an article on epithets in Homer:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Epithets_in_Homer
Which has fascinating linguistic details.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Storytelling
Discusses the "the wine-dark sea" as a standard phrase used in oral story-telling.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Epic_poetry
"Epithet: Heavy use of repetition or stock phrases: e.g., Homer's "rosy-fingered dawn" and "wine-dark sea.""
But looking at the other search results gives a flavour for how poetic phrases and epithets can be used in a language:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Over_the_Wine_Dark_Sea http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Robert_Aickman http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Leonardo_Sciascia http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/William_Henry_Scott_(historian) http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fatos_Tarifa
Those are five examples of stories and books using the phrase in their title.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Michael_Alec_Rose
"Wine-Dark Sea" for solo viola (1988), 3 minutes.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Wettest_Stories_Ever_Told
Some obscure Simpsons reference: "The Whine-Bar Sea".
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Golden_mean_(philosophy)
References include another book with this phrase in the title.
I saved the best (or worse) until last:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Muon-catalyzed_fusion
Buried deep in a footnote is this flight of poetic prose:
"...there has almost certainly never been even one p-d electron-catalyzed fusion (eCF) in all the vast wine-dark seas covering about three-quarters of the face of the Earth during all the long eons that water has existed here..."
Sadly, that isn't quoted, so it probably not suitable for an encyclopedia. Or it is quoted and should be cited.
An interesting review. The book that led me to look into this was Thomas Cahill's "Sailing the Wine-Dark Sea", a book in his excellent "Hinges of History" series. A helpful report is at http://www.indepthinfo.com/articles/wine-dark-sea.shtml . His attribution of the English rendering to Andrew Lang in turn led me to http://pages.towson.edu/colson/default_files/wine.htm.
Epithets may indeed be important to the development of epics, but those epithets are sterile when the cultural allusions are lost.
Ec
On Wed, May 6, 2009 at 8:58 AM, Ray Saintonge saintonge@telus.net wrote:
<snip>
An interesting review. The book that led me to look into this was Thomas Cahill's "Sailing the Wine-Dark Sea", a book in his excellent "Hinges of History" series. A helpful report is at http://www.indepthinfo.com/articles/wine-dark-sea.shtml . His attribution of the English rendering to Andrew Lang in turn led me to http://pages.towson.edu/colson/default_files/wine.htm.
Thanks for those two links. Very interesting.
Epithets may indeed be important to the development of epics, but those epithets are sterile when the cultural allusions are lost.
Half (all?) the fun is reading up about them and learning what the context was and is now.
Carcharoth
Hmmm. Interesting. I do think that some of the introductory sentences of some articles go on too much with information that should be in other sections or paragraphs, and an introductory sentence should convey the main subject of the article and some basic fact so you can look at it and know that is about what you are looking for, without having to trawl through the entire article headings, skim-reading or the sometimes very long contents sections. Good idea to do it in 140 characters, and even though that is sometimes too short for me for tweets, a few of you have already demonstrated above how easy it is to get a simple message across. Were you planning on creating one then, David?
Isabell.
On Tue, May 5, 2009 at 9:28 AM, David Gerard dgerard@gmail.com wrote:
http://www.lisnews.org/encyclopedic_knowledge_then_vs_now "(okay, there is no Twitterpedia,... not a real one, anyway.)"
So. Who's going to start Twitterpedia?
There's one at http://peqi.wikia.com/ and I've seen a couple of others around as well. With this one, you can post from Twitter by tweeting @peqi Title=Your article text here.
For example, http://twitter.com/wikiangela/status/1703672008 becomes http://peqi.wikia.com/wiki/Wikipedia
Angela
"David Gerard" dgerard@gmail.com asked in message news:fbad4e140905041628u4db85427j24073a4cae8cb891@mail.gmail.com... (...)
Who's going to start Twitterpedia?
No doubt twitter has its place on the internet, just as ICQ offers a one-on-one and personalized alternative to IRC. Someone at the Edmonton Journal was recently, and publicly, on paper critcized for their use of twitter. A twitter user likened it to dumping the Jurinal's RSS feed into twitter. _______ To believe it makes it true, therefore it is brain fart.