We have a policy about no offensive usernames. But does that cover the names of famous figures who are themselves controversial? Saddam Hussein is a classic example. To some he is a middle east hero. To most people he was a mass-murdering tyrant. In the circumstances it is at the very least inadvisable to use his name as a user name (even if it produces some farcical and comical events, as when, in reverting vandalism, I found that I had to revert the article on Saddam Hussein to the last version by Saddam Hussein!)
Many other world leaders are themselves controversial to some large segment of society, with their name if used being seen by some potential potential wiki users somewhere. One needs only to think of the attitude in parts of the US towards France to see the problems using 'Jacques Chirac' , the problems with using 'George Bush' given how he is seen some people internationally. Ditto with 'Tony Blair', 'Yasser Arafat', 'Ariel Sharon', 'Auguste Pinochet', 'Hugo Chavez', 'Ian Paisley', 'Josef Stalin', 'Chairman Mao', 'Benito Mussolini', any of the names of the candidates in the Californian recall election, 'Gerry Adams', 'Maggie Thatcher' etc. The problem is that, if even the user is absolutely credible in their edits, a bad choice of name can leave people with suspicions of bias that leads to others constantly targeting their edits for constant checks. NPOV should also guide choice of user names, because a proliferation of controversial names could lead visitors to doubt the neutrality of the site if a snap visit shows edits being carried out by politically controversial user nics. Having 'Saddam Hussein' edit articles on the Kurds, for example, could raise all sorts of fears about impartiality, as would having 'Yasser Arafat' editing [[Israel]], or 'Lord Wigery' editing pages on Northern Ireland. The edits may well be fine, but people would approach them with suspicion and presume a bias until shown otherwise. We have enough to worry about in terms of NPOV in articles, without badly chosen names creating ill-feeling, tensions and suspicions also.
I think out policy on user nics should be:
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Remember when using a user nic that a controversial name that may colour other users' perspective on your own credibility or political vewpoint. In addition remember that wikipedia is a world-wide source book and so take care in selecting a name to avoid anything that might potentially cause offence to someone from a different culture, religious or ethnic group. As such wikipedia recommends that users avoid
1. Names of twentieth or twenty-first century politicians, military or religious figures or events; 2. Any other names that may be seen as potentially offensive, or endorsing the politics, policies or beliefs of a public figure. 3. The following specific public names or any variation should not under any circumstances be used due to their controversial nature and potential offence:
Adolf Hitler, Josef Stalin, Benito Mussolini, Saddam Hussein, Chairman Mao, Pol Pot, Yasser Arafat, Ariel Sharon.
4. Historic names (19th century or earlier) may of course be used but the less controversial the better. People should be able to judge you purely on your contributions, not an emotional response to a potentially controversial nickname. Avoiding an offensive or insensitive name is in your own interest. So do please be careful. Remember you are working as part of a community. Show everyone else the respect for their beliefs that you expect them to show to you.
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This might seem a small point now, as we don't have that many controversial user nics. But as wiki grows the number of new users and usernics will rocket. If two or three people use them and get away with it, the likelihood is that more new members will follow, on the basis that 'if he can call himself 'x', then I will call myself 'y'.' Sooner or later we will face the problem. It makes sense to do it now, with the small community, than try to deal with it when there are twice or three times as many users, by which time offence may already have been caused to some, and potential wikipedians frightened off by the impression given by the unfortunate use of badly chosen names.
Any observations?
JT
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At 02:10 PM 8/25/2003, you wrote:
This might seem a small point now, as we don't have that many controversial user nics. But as wiki grows the number of new users and usernics will rocket. If two or three people use them and get away with it, the likelihood is that more new members will follow, on the basis that 'if he can call himself 'x', then I will call myself 'y'.' Sooner or later we will face the problem. It makes sense to do it now, with the small community, than try to deal with it when there are twice or three times as many users, by which time offence may already have been caused to some, and potential wikipedians frightened off by the impression given by the unfortunate use of badly chosen names.
Any observations?
JT
Sounds like a good enough idea to me. At the very least we'd have a clear-cut statement of our position on controversial names that we could point people towards if such direction is warranted.
----- Dante Alighieri dalighieri@digitalgrapefruit.com
"The darkest places in hell are reserved for those who maintain their neutrality in times of great moral crisis." -Dante Alighieri, 1265-1321
How about your real name, a real pseudonym or a fanciful name? If you try and change your name to something offensive, no judge will allow you to do that, but most places allow people to use any name they want without any formalities if the use of that name is not meant to be confusing, misleading or fraudulent. Using a famous name as a pseudonym can be confusing, misleading and/or fraudulent.
How about a bright line rule: no historical or actual public figures i.e. "absolute person of contemporary history"? see: http://www.wikipedia.org/wiki/Personality_rights#Personality_rights_in_Germa...
No one should be allowed to use a name that could be considered offensive, misleading or fraudulent, that includes IMHO calling onself Albert Einstein, Beethoven or Blaise Pascal (amongst others). Alex756 ----- Original Message ----- From: "james duffy" jtdirl@hotmail.com
I think out policy on user nics should be:
<,,snip>
Any observations?
JT
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At 09:48 PM 8/25/2003, you wrote:
How about your real name, a real pseudonym or a fanciful name? If you try and change your name to something offensive, no judge will allow you to do that, but most places allow people to use any name they want without any formalities if the use of that name is not meant to be confusing, misleading or fraudulent. Using a famous name as a pseudonym can be confusing, misleading and/or fraudulent.
How about a bright line rule: no historical or actual public figures i.e. "absolute person of contemporary history"? see: http://www.wikipedia.org/wiki/Personality_rights#Personality_rights_in_Germa...
No one should be allowed to use a name that could be considered offensive, misleading or fraudulent, that includes IMHO calling onself Albert Einstein, Beethoven or Blaise Pascal (amongst others). Alex756
I'm just curious how my user name could be considered confusing, misleading and/or fraudulent. Since I can't figure out what "contemporary history" means (since you've listed people who have been dead for centuries) I'll just have to assume that my name would be forbidden under your proposal.
Aside from the fact that the historical Dante Alighieri died 682 years ago, I'm sure that I could change my name legally to Dante Alighieri if I so desired. As a matter of fact, I don't suppose there's any way that you could prove that my name /isn't/ legally Dante Alighieri.
----- Dante Alighieri dalighieri@digitalgrapefruit.com
"The darkest places in hell are reserved for those who maintain their neutrality in times of great moral crisis." -Dante Alighieri, 1265-1321
Dante Alighieri wrote:
At 09:48 PM 8/25/2003, you wrote:
How about your real name, a real pseudonym or a fanciful name? If you try and change your name to something offensive, no judge will allow you to do that, but most places allow people to use any name they want without any formalities if the use of that name is not meant to be confusing, misleading or fraudulent. Using a famous name as a pseudonym can be confusing, misleading and/or fraudulent.
How about a bright line rule: no historical or actual public figures i.e. "absolute person of contemporary history"? see: http://www.wikipedia.org/wiki/Personality_rights#Personality_rights_in_Germa...
No one should be allowed to use a name that could be considered offensive, misleading or fraudulent, that includes IMHO calling onself Albert Einstein, Beethoven or Blaise Pascal (amongst others). Alex756
I'm just curious how my user name could be considered confusing, misleading and/or fraudulent. Since I can't figure out what "contemporary history" means (since you've listed people who have been dead for centuries) I'll just have to assume that my name would be forbidden under your proposal.
Aside from the fact that the historical Dante Alighieri died 682 years ago, I'm sure that I could change my name legally to Dante Alighieri if I so desired. As a matter of fact, I don't suppose there's any way that you could prove that my name /isn't/ legally Dante Alighieri.
I have no complaint about those who want to use these famous names as nicknames. This issue is much ado about nothing. There is little likelihood that such a use would fall into any of the categories of offensive, misleading or fraudulent. No one would for a moment be misled into believing that our recent [[User:Saddam Hussein]] was the same as the Iraqi leader. There are likely some who feel offended by it, but that is the personal choice of the humourless. Fraudulent is the least likely of the three, given that none of us are in Wikipedia for the money.
We have had attempts to be misleading here (as in the Anthere/Anthère issue), and a few instances where choices have gone beyond good taste (as in User:TMC). I would wonder if there have been successful actions anywhere about the use of pseudonyms on the internet, particularly where their use is in relation to the limited circumstances of a particular website.
This issue needs lightening up.
Ec
Dante Alighieri wrote:
Aside from the fact that the historical Dante Alighieri died 682 years ago, I'm sure that I could change my name legally to Dante Alighieri if I so desired. As a matter of fact, I don't suppose there's any way that you could prove that my name /isn't/ legally Dante Alighieri.
I don't really have a problem with Dante Alighieri, as a famous character from very old literature. I don't prefer such names, but I don't think they raise the same kind of issues as 'Saddam Hussein' or 'George Bush'.
I think anyone seeing the name with either not recognize it (if they are uneducated) or will instantly know that it's just a pseudonym, one which probably conveys only a little bit of information about you. (As for me, I don't really know what it's supposed to _mean_, if anything.)
--Jimbo
james duffy wrote:
This might seem a small point now, as we don't have that many controversial user nics. But as wiki grows the number of new users and usernics will rocket. If two or three people use them and get away with it, the likelihood is that more new members will follow, on the basis that 'if he can call himself 'x', then I will call myself 'y'.' Sooner or later we will face the problem. It makes sense to do it now, with the small community, than try to deal with it when there are twice or three times as many users, by which time offence may already have been caused to some, and potential wikipedians frightened off by the impression given by the unfortunate use of badly chosen names.
Any observations?
My observation on these names is that most of these users have an attention span that matches their social grace. Once [[User:Adolf Hitler]] has joined us, he is not likely to stay long. His usage of the name, however, means that all others are blocked from using that name in the future. The problem will effectively solve itself without the need for more rules.
Ec
Ray Saintonge wrote:
My observation on these names is that most of these users have an attention span that matches their social grace. Once [[User:Adolf Hitler]] has joined us, he is not likely to stay long. His usage of the name, however, means that all others are blocked from using that name in the future. The problem will effectively solve itself without the need for more rules.
I think that's a very clever observation, and adds to my conviction that we might have a set of recommendations, but that except in some extreme cases, we need not have a formal policy that forbids these names.
If [[User:Saddam Hussein]] turns out to be a good user, then that person can likely be persuaded to change the username to something more serious.
--Jimbo
On Mon, 25 Aug 2003 22:46:25 -0700, Ray Saintonge saintonge@telus.net gave utterance to the following:
james duffy wrote:
This might seem a small point now, as we don't have that many controversial user nics. But as wiki grows the number of new users and usernics will rocket. If two or three people use them and get away with it, the likelihood is that more new members will follow, on the basis that 'if he can call himself 'x', then I will call myself 'y'.' Sooner or later we will face the problem. It makes sense to do it now, with the small community, than try to deal with it when there are twice or three times as many users, by which time offence may already have been caused to some, and potential wikipedians frightened off by the impression given by the unfortunate use of badly chosen names.
Any observations?
My observation on these names is that most of these users have an attention span that matches their social grace. Once [[User:Adolf Hitler]] has joined us, he is not likely to stay long. His usage of the name, however, means that all others are blocked from using that name in the future. The problem will effectively solve itself without the need for more rules.
Then why doesn't someone senior and responsible simply create all the user names we think are offensive, effectively removing them from circulation. Would this create a problem with user:talk pages?
Richard Grevers wrote:
Ray Saintonge gave utterance to the following:
My observation on these names is that most of these users have an attention span that matches their social grace. Once [[User:Adolf Hitler]] has joined us, he is not likely to stay long. His usage of the name, however, means that all others are blocked from using that name in the future. The problem will effectively solve itself without the need for more rules.
Then why doesn't someone senior and responsible simply create all the user names we think are offensive, effectively removing them from circulation. Would this create a problem with user:talk pages?
Someone has started this; but the possibilities are infinite. There may not be a problem with user:talk pages but [[User:Talk Pages]] may object. ;-)
Ec
I have been thinking lately about [[PPR:RealNamesPlease]]. (That's http://c2.com/cgi/wiki?RealNamesPlease.) This is a longstanding policy on the orginal wiki which perhaps Wikipedia should have adopted a long time ago. ???
-- Toby
IMO, this is a Bad Thing (TM). It will discourage many useful users from participating in Wikipedia. I use my real name (at least part of it), but I totally can understand why people would not do so.
RickK
Toby Bartels toby+wikipedia@math.ucr.edu wrote:
I have been thinking lately about [[PPR:RealNamesPlease]]. (That's .) This is a longstanding policy on the orginal wiki which perhaps Wikipedia should have adopted a long time ago. ???
-- Toby _______________________________________________ WikiEN-l mailing list WikiEN-l@Wikipedia.org http://mail.wikipedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikien-l
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james duffy wrote:
We have a policy about no offensive usernames. But does that cover the names of famous figures who are themselves controversial? Saddam Hussein is a classic example.
I would say that it would be best to not use the names of famous figures, especially famous figures who are still living or only recently deceased. I would include both real names of real people, as well as famous character names from books, movies, etc.
It seems unlikely that this needs to rise to the level of enforceable policy, although encouraging a high standard of conduct generally is a good thing.
Therefore, I really like the way you wrote this, although I'm sure someone clever can suggest some improvements. I like phrasing things in terms of recommendations and community norms, rather than in terms of 'you are not allowed to do this'.
I should add, of course, that for some offensive names, I do think 'you are not allowed to do this' is the appropriate response.
Remember when using a user nic that a controversial name that may colour other users' perspective on your own credibility or political vewpoint. In addition remember that wikipedia is a world-wide source book and so take care in selecting a name to avoid anything that might potentially cause offence to someone from a different culture, religious or ethnic group. As such wikipedia recommends that users avoid
- Names of twentieth or twenty-first century politicians, military or
religious figures or events; 2. Any other names that may be seen as potentially offensive, or endorsing the politics, policies or beliefs of a public figure. 3. The following specific public names or any variation should not under any circumstances be used due to their controversial nature and potential offence:
Adolf Hitler, Josef Stalin, Benito Mussolini, Saddam Hussein, Chairman Mao, Pol Pot, Yasser Arafat, Ariel Sharon.
- Historic names (19th century or earlier) may of course be used
but the less controversial the better. People should be able to judge you purely on your contributions, not an emotional response to a potentially controversial nickname. Avoiding an offensive or insensitive name is in your own interest. So do please be careful. Remember you are working as part of a community. Show everyone else the respect for their beliefs that you expect them to show to you.
Any observations?
Primarily, that I like things that are written like this, emphasizing mutual respect and the seriousness of what we are trying to accomplish.
--Jimbo