The current policy of "ask politely, show evidence, consider, block" does not appear to have been followed in this case.
Well, certainly it was followed for the JRR account - he was asked, evidence was shown, we mulled it over, and then Heph blocked. Perfectly in line with that policy. You may have missed it because it took place over several weeks, but I think it was exemplary. If anything we perhaps took a little too long mulling over things, perhaps in part because we had a red herring about whether "troll" in the username is inappropriate.
Presumption of innocence which is totally forgotten
In the UK, the burden of proof in criminal cases is "innocent until proven guilty", while the burden of proof in civil cases is "balance of probabilities", and so forth. Even in the real world, the presumption of innocence is hardly a universal, and with good reason.
I guess in deciding the burden of proof, one needs to consider the consequences of making a wrong decision, and the ability of an innocent person to show that they are innocent. It would be wrong to witch hunt and block on suspicion, but equally it would be wrong to require evidence that would satisfy a criminal court. There is a balance to be struck here.
- blocking is done without AC consideration first to the case
=>consequence number 1 (block) is saying "we do not trust AC to do what
it should do"
I think our policy on reincarnations is such that the AC doesn't need to consider the issue first. I was willing to consider it only because the admins seemed to feel unwilling to block without the backup of a specific arbcom ruling - as that no longer is the case, our involvement is no longer required, unless Mark and the rest of the community are unable to come to an agreement on this.
-Martin
What about LT?
--- Martin Harper martin@myreddice.freeserve.co.uk wrote:
The current policy of "ask politely, show
evidence,
consider, block" does not appear to have been
followed
in this case.
Well, certainly it was followed for the JRR account
- he was asked, evidence was
shown, we mulled it over, and then Heph blocked. Perfectly in line with that policy. You may have missed it because it took place over several weeks, but I think it was exemplary. If anything we perhaps took a little too long mulling over things, perhaps in part because we had a red herring about whether "troll" in the username is inappropriate.
Presumption of innocence which is totally
forgotten
In the UK, the burden of proof in criminal cases is "innocent until proven guilty", while the burden of proof in civil cases is "balance of probabilities", and so forth. Even in the real world, the presumption of innocence is hardly a universal, and with good reason.
I guess in deciding the burden of proof, one needs to consider the consequences of making a wrong decision, and the ability of an innocent person to show that they are innocent. It would be wrong to witch hunt and block on suspicion, but equally it would be wrong to require evidence that would satisfy a criminal court. There is a balance to be struck here.
- blocking is done without AC consideration first
to the case
=>consequence number 1 (block) is saying "we do
not trust AC to do what it should do"
I think our policy on reincarnations is such that the AC doesn't need to consider the issue first. I was willing to consider it only because the admins seemed to feel unwilling to block without the backup of a specific arbcom ruling - as that no longer is the case, our involvement is no longer required, unless Mark and the rest of the community are unable to come to an agreement on this.
-Martin _______________________________________________ WikiEN-l mailing list WikiEN-l@Wikipedia.org http://mail.wikipedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikien-l
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I remeber that brief furore - [Telgur the Trollslayer] was a user who should have known better pretending to be a sockpuppet of some other 'troll' user - nobody was prepared to entertain the idea that it was not a sockpuppet.
Uh, Telgur WAS a sock puppet. To quote from user talk:
"Hi there, I'm a disused sockpuppet widely considered to have been a bad joke."
So, when we thought that Telgur was probably a sock puppet, we were right. While there was a theoretical possibility that there was actually a Mr. Telgur Trollslayer wandering the streets of Bromsgrove, this turned out not to be the case. Yeay for us.
Unless I miss my mark, nobody ever blocked Telgur. Two people (count 'em) said that they thought Telgur was a sock puppet of our life-banned friend. So we did the "ask politely" thing. Then, Mkweise came clean and apologised. Thus our policy on reincarnations worked wonderfully, and we avoided accidentally blocking a non-banned user. Yeay for us again.
In other words, our approach worked then, as it has worked in other cases. Our collective judgement has avoided making mistakes thus far, and long may it continue to do so. -Martin
The point was not whether there was a sockpuppet, but whether the sockpuppet was a previously banned user. Nobody questioned the assumption that they were. Mark
--- Martin Harper martin@myreddice.freeserve.co.uk wrote:
I remeber that brief furore - [Telgur the
Trollslayer] was a user
who should have known better pretending to be a
sockpuppet of
some other 'troll' user - nobody was prepared to entertain the idea that it was not a sockpuppet.
Uh, Telgur WAS a sock puppet. To quote from user talk:
"Hi there, I'm a disused sockpuppet widely
considered to have been a bad joke."
So, when we thought that Telgur was probably a sock puppet, we were right. While there was a theoretical possibility that there was actually a Mr. Telgur Trollslayer wandering the streets of Bromsgrove, this turned out not to be the case. Yeay for us.
Unless I miss my mark, nobody ever blocked Telgur. Two people (count 'em) said that they thought Telgur was a sock puppet of our life-banned friend. So we did the "ask politely" thing. Then, Mkweise came clean and apologised. Thus our policy on reincarnations worked wonderfully, and we avoided accidentally blocking a non-banned user. Yeay for us again.
In other words, our approach worked then, as it has worked in other cases. Our collective judgement has avoided making mistakes thus far, and long may it continue to do so. -Martin
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