I've noticed that a lot of wikipedia users don't like irc. I was wondering why. Is it just because it's not as transparent?
Phoenix 15
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That is rather vague. How did you "notice" this? Is there a template "This user does not like [[Wikipedia:IRC|IRC]]"?
On 23/10/2007, Phoenix wiki phoenix.wiki@gmail.com wrote:
I've noticed that a lot of wikipedia users don't like irc. I was wondering why. Is it just because it's not as transparent?
Phoenix 15 _______________________________________________ WikiEN-l mailing list WikiEN-l@lists.wikimedia.org To unsubscribe from this mailing list, visit: http://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikien-l
On 10/23/07, Phoenix wiki phoenix.wiki@gmail.com wrote:
I've noticed that a lot of wikipedia users don't like irc. I was wondering why. Is it just because it's not as transparent?
Transparency; no permanent record; encouraging cliqueishness; tends to encourage precipitous action and "echo chamber" style encouragement; leaves users/admins in other time zones out of the loop. Among others.
-Matt
On 23/10/2007, Phoenix wiki phoenix.wiki@gmail.com wrote:
I've noticed that a lot of wikipedia users don't like irc. I was wondering why. Is it just because it's not as transparent?
Phoenix 15 _______________________________________________ WikiEN-l mailing list WikiEN-l@lists.wikimedia.org To unsubscribe from this mailing list, visit: http://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikien-l
Oh my. It's lots of reasons. Have a look at http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User:Friday/OOB and http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User:Geogre/IRC_considered for starters, and relevant links coming from them. Also have a look at http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:IRC_channels/Personal_views_regarding...
On 10/23/07, Majorly axel9891@googlemail.com wrote:
Oh my. It's lots of reasons. Have a look at http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User:Friday/OOB and http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User:Geogre/IRC_considered for starters, and relevant links coming from them. Also have a look at
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:IRC_channels/Personal_views_regarding...
It's been a decent while since I took a peek at Geogre's essay on IRC, so I don't know if it's been changed since then. As a longtime user of IRC, myself, I thought it brought up some great points for everyone to consider, both on and off IRC.
I tend to find IRC very helpful in small matters where time can be a key factor -- dealing with everyday vandalism or widespread disruption, answering helpme and unblock requests from users in need, or getting a quick second opinion or sanity check on something, say. The ability to rapidly get the attention of a large (and hopefully diverse) group of people can be a double-edged sword, so use it wisely.
-Luna
Quoting Phoenix wiki phoenix.wiki@gmail.com:
I've noticed that a lot of wikipedia users don't like irc. I was wondering why. Is it just because it's not as transparent?
Phoenix 15
That is one of many concerns. Also, many people seem not to think as much when they are on IRC and so drama quickly ensues. Proponents argue that a) it is a fun way to build more feelings of community b) that it is useful in emergency situations ( vandals needing quick responses, emergency dessysopings). Also I don't think anyone thinks that transparency is necessarily better: if the ArbCom mailing list was open to everyone to see we would have serious problems. Similarly, if everyone could see all deleted edits we would have issues. Like many things, there is a balance. Speaking as someone who does not use IRC for Wikipedia purposes, one thing that does annoy me and other editors is that a discussion can be ongoing on AN or ANI and then a result opposite that of the direction of the discussion can occur based on a few editors talking on IRC.
Could it be that many users simply can't get on IRC at their place of work, by perchance ?
On 23/10/2007, Phoenix wiki phoenix.wiki@gmail.com wrote:
I've noticed that a lot of wikipedia users don't like irc. I was wondering why. Is it just because it's not as transparent?
Phoenix 15 _______________________________________________ WikiEN-l mailing list WikiEN-l@lists.wikimedia.org To unsubscribe from this mailing list, visit: http://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikien-l
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That is a common problem, yes.
On 23/10/2007, Nick heligolandwp@googlemail.com wrote:
Could it be that many users simply can't get on IRC at their place of work, by perchance ?
On 23/10/2007, Phoenix wiki phoenix.wiki@gmail.com wrote:
I've noticed that a lot of wikipedia users don't like irc. I was
wondering
why. Is it just because it's not as transparent?
Phoenix 15 _______________________________________________ WikiEN-l mailing list WikiEN-l@lists.wikimedia.org To unsubscribe from this mailing list, visit: http://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikien-l
-- Nick http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User:Nick _______________________________________________ WikiEN-l mailing list WikiEN-l@lists.wikimedia.org To unsubscribe from this mailing list, visit: http://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikien-l
For a long time I thought there was some cabal of cronies who collaborated through IRC, or that it was elitist. I'm not a codemonkey or any other kind of really tech-savvy person, so I just assumed IRC would be some archiac and complex edifice that wasn't worth the time and effort it would take to learn.
But that's not it at all. It's really easy to use, not too much different say, from having to download the AIM client and use that (I use Colloquy on an iBook).
As to the cabal idea...certainly not on the open forums. Mostly it's just useless social jibber-jabber. I think once I got some help on a project, but it wasn't something I couldn't have gotten done if I'd gone to the user's regular talk.
The key difference is immediacy (of course). The speed of conversation has good qualities (get things done and find out what that ugly new banner is fast) and bad ones (people speak before thinking, and most of it has nothing to do with building an encyclopedia).
On 10/23/07, Gary Kirk gary.kirk@gmail.com wrote:
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That is a common problem, yes.
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.4.7 (MingW32) Comment: http://firegpg.tuxfamily.org
iD8DBQFHHnim+2nUI1W2UMIRAtaVAJ95l4C7hCh0krmHkwuoRUGMdK25fgCfUl+D XeILqRxGP/fDr/7fpBup4j0= =aC4i -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- On 23/10/2007, Nick heligolandwp@googlemail.com wrote:
Could it be that many users simply can't get on IRC at their place of work, by perchance ?
On 23/10/2007, Phoenix wiki phoenix.wiki@gmail.com wrote:
I've noticed that a lot of wikipedia users don't like irc. I was
wondering
why. Is it just because it's not as transparent?
Phoenix 15 _______________________________________________ WikiEN-l mailing list WikiEN-l@lists.wikimedia.org To unsubscribe from this mailing list, visit: http://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikien-l
-- Nick http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User:Nick _______________________________________________ WikiEN-l mailing list WikiEN-l@lists.wikimedia.org To unsubscribe from this mailing list, visit: http://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikien-l
-- Gary Kirk _______________________________________________ WikiEN-l mailing list WikiEN-l@lists.wikimedia.org To unsubscribe from this mailing list, visit: http://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikien-l
Phoenix wiki wrote:
I've noticed that a lot of wikipedia users don't like irc. I was wondering why. Is it just because it's not as transparent?
I can only answer for myself, and the reason is quite different. When something is said on the mailing list I can take my time to come up with a thoughtful response, and even then I have at times been too hasty in my comments. If I do that in a chat room, then by the time I am ready to send my answer the other participants may have long since moved on to a different subject.
Ec
Phoenix wiki wrote:
I've noticed that a lot of wikipedia users don't like irc. I was wondering why. Is it just because it's not as transparent?
My problem is that the time commitment is less flexible. With IRC, you have to sit around and in real time wait for people to say things, and respond. With mailing lists or talk pages, I can hop on for a few minutes, scan over what's been posted in the past few hours, and reply, and then go do something else again. I can queue up all my messages and read them on Saturday when I have more free time, or at 3am when I have more free time. With IRC I basically have to be there when other people are or it isn't particularly useful, and there's no meaningful way I can queue up things to respond to later. Etc.
It's useful for planned, focused meetings, if you can work around the timezone issues, though I more often use Jabber or AIM for those myself.
-Mark
Delirium wrote:
Phoenix wiki wrote:
I've noticed that a lot of wikipedia users don't like irc. I was wondering why. Is it just because it's not as transparent?
My problem is that the time commitment is less flexible. With IRC, you have to sit around and in real time wait for people to say things, and respond. With mailing lists or talk pages, I can hop on for a few minutes, scan over what's been posted in the past few hours, and reply, and then go do something else again. I can queue up all my messages and read them on Saturday when I have more free time, or at 3am when I have more free time. With IRC I basically have to be there when other people are or it isn't particularly useful, and there's no meaningful way I can queue up things to respond to later. Etc.
It's useful for planned, focused meetings, if you can work around the timezone issues, though I more often use Jabber or AIM for those myself.
I very much agree. What I have noticed is that the mailing list volume is actually lower on Saturdays than on other days. Maybe we have a lot of people out there who still believe that Saturday night is party night. Maybe they even have a life. :-)
Ec
Quoting Ray Saintonge saintonge@telus.net:
Delirium wrote:
Phoenix wiki wrote:
I've noticed that a lot of wikipedia users don't like irc. I was wondering why. Is it just because it's not as transparent?
My problem is that the time commitment is less flexible. With IRC, you have to sit around and in real time wait for people to say things, and respond. With mailing lists or talk pages, I can hop on for a few minutes, scan over what's been posted in the past few hours, and reply, and then go do something else again. I can queue up all my messages and read them on Saturday when I have more free time, or at 3am when I have more free time. With IRC I basically have to be there when other people are or it isn't particularly useful, and there's no meaningful way I can queue up things to respond to later. Etc.
It's useful for planned, focused meetings, if you can work around the timezone issues, though I more often use Jabber or AIM for those myself.
I very much agree. What I have noticed is that the mailing list volume is actually lower on Saturdays than on other days. Maybe we have a lot of people out there who still believe that Saturday night is party night. Maybe they even have a life. :-)
I'm shocked and dismayed that Wikipedians would have lives. We must track down any admins who have lives and dessysop them immediately. I can see it now on an RfA page:
#'''oppose''' Has a life. ~~~~
JZ
On 24/10/2007, joshua.zelinsky@yale.edu joshua.zelinsky@yale.edu wrote:
I'm shocked and dismayed that Wikipedians would have lives. We must track down any admins who have lives and dessysop them immediately. I can see it now on an RfA page:
#'''oppose''' Has a life. ~~~~
WP:BEANS... :)
I thought it was cute: http://xkcd.com/333/
(As with all xkcd comics, half the joke is in the "title" attribute for the img tag, which you get to see when you let the mouse hover over the image).
- PeruvianLlama
Damn you, I was just about to bring this up on the list.
On 10/24/07, PeruvianLlama peruvianllama@gmail.com wrote:
I thought it was cute: http://xkcd.com/333/
(As with all xkcd comics, half the joke is in the "title" attribute for the img tag, which you get to see when you let the mouse hover over the image).
- PeruvianLlama
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On 23/10/2007, Phoenix wiki phoenix.wiki@gmail.com wrote:
I've noticed that a lot of wikipedia users don't like irc. I was wondering why. Is it just because it's not as transparent?
Phoenix 15
I participated on IRC regularly for some time a number of years back. I came to the conclusion that yes, it was great discussing things in real-time with other editors, but it wasn't always that sensible or useful. In the end, I found it too distracting to be logged on while doing other things, and because of my not considering worthwhile enough, thus I stopped logging on. I have similar reasons for no longer being as active an editor on Wikipedia - the concerns I have about the project aren't enough to stop me being involved, but are enough that I can't justify devoting much time to it.
The mailing list is pretty good, as it requires very little effort to skim through threads and discussions, particularly using the interface of Gmail. I really appreciate keeping track at least of what kind of things are discussed here on the mailing list now that my personal activity on Wikipedia is lower.
Zoney
Right, thanks for your responses. I quiet like irc but I suppose a lot of it is a lot of social jobber-jabber. I also don't do as much work on the 'pedia since I started using it
Phoenix 15