On Oct 9, 2006, at 1:02 AM, daniwo59(a)aol.com wrote:
Okay, this has gone far enough.
It is remarkable that people have built all these theories on
to what happened with Fleshlight, without actually knowing the
facts. It is
just ludicrous to think that I succumbed to pressure from a company.
Nobody has suggested that you did. Quite the contrary, it appears
that you very deliberately pissed off a company as a way of dealing
with the unreasonable demands they tried to place on the project by
doing the exact opposite of what they asked.
For all those expressing indignation, I invite you to
think about what
should be included in an encyclopedia, even one the size of
Wikipedia. Once you
define that, consider what the definition excludes.
Danny, the Office does not and should not be determining inclusion
criteria on its own and imposing them without the consent of the
community. Fleshlight survived AfD three times. For the Office to
declare "Sorry, community - you're wrong" is a new approach for the
Office, and one I think is a very, very bad one.
Considering all this, I asked if Fleshlight really needs an article
own. I consulted with people too. The overwhelming response was
that this is
spam and should be nuked.
Which is flatly untrue, looking at the article history. It may have
become spam, but the article was not inherently spam, and had good
versions in its history.
Once again, I hope that this whole incident helps to clarify what the
criteria for inclusion in Wikipedia are. At least let it launch
But to do that, we have to avoid all the rhetoric and be willing to
decisions based on the underlying principles behind what Wikipedia
One of the underlying principles is deference to the community on
content issues, and to a defined system of appeal upwards from that.
The Office does not historically enjoy a role of roving court of
appeals. In the past, in cases like this, Office members, including
Jimbo, have started AfDs and made it very clear that they are asking
the community to rethink inclusion on this one. The switch from that
to nuking is, I will repeat, a significant turn, and a very bad one.