[[User:Zxcvb]] is Lir. This is evident from Zxcvb's postings on [[User:The Cunctator/Advice for Lir]] in which he answered Cunctator's "advice" as Lir.
Zoe
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--- Zoe zoecomnena@yahoo.com wrote:
[[User:Zxcvb]] is Lir. This is evident from Zxcvb's postings on [[User:The Cunctator/Advice for Lir]] in which he answered Cunctator's "advice" as Lir.
Zoe
I'm so gullible. I actually trusted Lir's incarnation as [[User:Like a Virgin]] when she said she was quitting Wikipedia for good after critisizing our hypocracy (saying anyone can edit and then banning her). She does have a point. Give Zxcvb a chance. I remain that Lir wants to change but we aren't giving her a chance to.
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Lir is banned here. He has alternative possibilities open to him elsewhere. If he does well I will be the first to come here and champion his cause. But he and all incarnations are banned here. If he is coming back as another character (and I offer no opinion) he is not respecting a long standing decision.
Fred
From: Daniel Ehrenberg littledanehren@yahoo.com Reply-To: wikien-l@wikipedia.org Date: Sun, 11 May 2003 14:25:52 -0700 (PDT) To: wikien-l@wikipedia.org Subject: Re: [WikiEN-l] Zxcvb is Lir
--- Zoe zoecomnena@yahoo.com wrote:
[[User:Zxcvb]] is Lir. This is evident from Zxcvb's postings on [[User:The Cunctator/Advice for Lir]] in which he answered Cunctator's "advice" as Lir.
Zoe
I'm so gullible. I actually trusted Lir's incarnation as [[User:Like a Virgin]] when she said she was quitting Wikipedia for good after critisizing our hypocracy (saying anyone can edit and then banning her). She does have a point. Give Zxcvb a chance. I remain that Lir wants to change but we aren't giving her a chance to.
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There's no need to offer an opinion. He has said so much, on my repeatedly-vandalized User Page, on my talk page, on his Zxcvb user page, and on Oliver Pereira's talk page.
Zoe
--- Fred Bauder fredbaud@ctelco.net wrote:
Lir is banned here. He has alternative possibilities open to him elsewhere. If he does well I will be the first to come here and champion his cause. But he and all incarnations are banned here. If he is coming back as another character (and I offer no opinion) he is not respecting a long standing decision.
Fred
From: Daniel Ehrenberg littledanehren@yahoo.com Reply-To: wikien-l@wikipedia.org Date: Sun, 11 May 2003 14:25:52 -0700 (PDT) To: wikien-l@wikipedia.org Subject: Re: [WikiEN-l] Zxcvb is Lir
--- Zoe zoecomnena@yahoo.com wrote:
[[User:Zxcvb]] is Lir. This is evident from
Zxcvb's
postings on [[User:The Cunctator/Advice for Lir]]
in
which he answered Cunctator's "advice" as Lir.
Zoe
I'm so gullible. I actually trusted Lir's
incarnation
as [[User:Like a Virgin]] when she said she was quitting Wikipedia for good after critisizing our hypocracy (saying anyone can edit and then banning her). She does have a point. Give Zxcvb a chance.
I
remain that Lir wants to change but we aren't
giving
her a chance to.
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WikiEN-l mailing list WikiEN-l@wikipedia.org http://www.wikipedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikien-l
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--- Zoe zoecomnena@yahoo.com wrote:
There's no need to offer an opinion. He has said so much, on my repeatedly-vandalized User Page, on my talk page, on his Zxcvb user page, and on Oliver Pereira's talk page.
Zoe
I'm playing Devil's Advocate, but it's kind of understandable that he would want to get back at certain people for what he thinks was an unjust banning.
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Dan,
Even before he created the current userid, he was causing trouble at [[Lynne Thigpen and [[Talk:Lynne Thigpen]], trying to force us to accept a cause of death which has yet to be proven. Everyone except Adam/Lir/Vera wanted to wait until the autopsy results, but he demanded that we put that she had died of a heart attack. Reversions did no good.
Zoe
--- Daniel Ehrenberg littledanehren@yahoo.com wrote:
--- Zoe zoecomnena@yahoo.com wrote:
[[User:Zxcvb]] is Lir. This is evident from
Zxcvb's
postings on [[User:The Cunctator/Advice for Lir]]
in
which he answered Cunctator's "advice" as Lir.
Zoe
I'm so gullible. I actually trusted Lir's incarnation as [[User:Like a Virgin]] when she said she was quitting Wikipedia for good after critisizing our hypocracy (saying anyone can edit and then banning her). She does have a point. Give Zxcvb a chance. I remain that Lir wants to change but we aren't giving her a chance to.
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Adam probably thinks that an encyclopedia should have facts laid out as such, not just vague guesses. It's understandable (although I don't agree with it) to present speculation as fact to mask uncertainty. Certainly other websites do it.
LittleDan
--- Zoe zoecomnena@yahoo.com wrote:
Dan,
Even before he created the current userid, he was causing trouble at [[Lynne Thigpen]] and
[[Talk:Lynne
Thigpen]], trying to force us to accept a cause of death which has yet to be proven. Everyone except Adam/Lir/Vera wanted to wait until the autopsy results, but he demanded that we put that she had died of a heart attack. Reversions did no good.
Zoe
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On Sun, 2003-05-11 at 18:15, Daniel Ehrenberg wrote:
Adam probably thinks that an encyclopedia should have facts laid out as such, not just vague guesses. It's understandable (although I don't agree with it) to present speculation as fact to mask uncertainty. Certainly other websites do it.
That is the exact opposite of acceptable. An encyclopedia must not present speculation as fact, as that would be a falsehood.
It may present the fact that there _is_ speculation. That's not the same thing.
-- brion vibber (brion @ pobox.com)
On 5/12/03 1:13 AM, "Brion Vibber" brion@pobox.com wrote:
On Sun, 2003-05-11 at 18:15, Daniel Ehrenberg wrote:
Adam probably thinks that an encyclopedia should have facts laid out as such, not just vague guesses. It's understandable (although I don't agree with it) to present speculation as fact to mask uncertainty. Certainly other websites do it.
That is the exact opposite of acceptable. An encyclopedia must not present speculation as fact, as that would be a falsehood.
It may present the fact that there _is_ speculation. That's not the same thing.
A philosophical digression:
All facts are based on speculation at some point. "My eyes are blue" would generally go under the category of fact, not speculation, but that statement is actually a speculation, to wit: "The vast majority of the time I have observed the color of my eyes via reflective or photographic media, and the vast majority of time that others expressed a judgment about the color of my eyes, they have appeared to be blue; and as I assume that my memories and senses, the photographic and reflective media, and the judgments of others are reliable, and as I know of no situations in which people's eyes spontaneously change color, nor can I conceive of a mechanism by which my eyes would do so, I speculate that at this moment (and for the foreseeable future) my eyes are blue."
But it's easier to say "My eyes are blue", call it a fact, and move on.
It's debatable whether a verifiable speculation that turns out to be true is in any way distinct from a fact. Is "The sun will rise tomorrow" a falsehood? Is it not a fact? Does it become one retroactively when tomorrow comes?
I know, I was just presenting my guess of what his misconseption was.
Brion Vibber brion@pobox.com wrote:On Sun, 2003-05-11 at 18:15, Daniel Ehrenberg wrote:
Adam probably thinks that an encyclopedia should have facts laid out as such, not just vague guesses. It's understandable (although I don't agree with it) to present speculation as fact to mask uncertainty. Certainly other websites do it.
That is the exact opposite of acceptable. An encyclopedia must not present speculation as fact, as that would be a falsehood.
It may present the fact that there _is_ speculation. That's not the same thing.
-- brion vibber (brion @ pobox.com)
ATTACHMENT part 2 application/pgp-signature name=signature.asc
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Please explain how posting speculation is "facts".
Zoe
--- Daniel Ehrenberg littledanehren@yahoo.com wrote:
Adam probably thinks that an encyclopedia should have facts laid out as such, not just vague guesses. It's understandable (although I don't agree with it) to present speculation as fact to mask uncertainty. Certainly other websites do it.
LittleDan
--- Zoe zoecomnena@yahoo.com wrote:
Dan,
Even before he created the current userid, he was causing trouble at [[Lynne Thigpen]] and
[[Talk:Lynne
Thigpen]], trying to force us to accept a cause of death which has yet to be proven. Everyone except Adam/Lir/Vera wanted to wait until the autopsy results, but he demanded that we put that she had died of a heart attack. Reversions did no good.
Zoe
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On Mon, 12 May 2003, Zoe wrote:
Please explain how posting speculation is "facts".
Easy. By attributing the speculation to its source.
Mr. [name omitted for privacy reasons] did, for a while, make the mistake of thinking that the IMDb was a reliable source of information, but I think this is understandable, since it is a common belief. When its unreliability was pointed out, he attributed the claims about the cause of death to its sources. His last attempt to work on the paragraph the other night was as follows:-
"She died, unexpectedly, in [[Los Angeles, California]]. Although, the [[cause of death]] has not been officially determined, several sources (not including the [[LA Times]]; but, including the [[IMDB]] and the [[Buffalo News]]) have reported that this was a [[heart attack]]."
That is not trying to force you to accept anything; it is merely reporting what other sources have said. Which is precisely what we are encouraged to do when there is disagreement about something. I would hardly call this "causing trouble" (in your words), and neither is it trying to "present speculation as fact to mask uncertainty" (in the words of Mr. Ehrenberg). I find it hard to see it as anything other than a genuine (albeit perhaps misguided) attempt to make the article more informative.
Oliver
+-------------------------------------------+ | Oliver Pereira | | Dept. of Electronics and Computer Science | | University of Southampton | | omp199@ecs.soton.ac.uk | +-------------------------------------------+
On Tue, 13 May 2003, Oliver Pereira wrote:
Mr. [name omitted for privacy reasons] did, for a while, make the mistake of thinking that the IMDb was a reliable source of information
Ah. I've just read Mr. [name omitted for privacy reasons]'s last e-mail to the list, where he says that it was another user who added the "heart attack" statement. It was in fact 204.39.225.151 who originally added it. And it was a user with a similar IP address, 204.39.227.248, who stated in an edit summary, "even IMDB lists it as a heart attack...and this is the bible for celebrity information". I therefore retract my above statement and publically apologise to Mr. [name omitted for privacy reasons] for jumping to conclusions (or, rather, believing another user's conclusions) about who it was.
When its unreliability was pointed out, he attributed the claims about the cause of death to its sources.
The attribution was indeed done by Mr. [name omitted for privacy reasons], under the psedonym Zxcvb, so this part of my message still stands. I hope that clears things up a bit.
Oliver
+-------------------------------------------+ | Oliver Pereira | | Dept. of Electronics and Computer Science | | University of Southampton | | omp199@ecs.soton.ac.uk | +-------------------------------------------+
Zoe, you seem to have a hard time deciphering other's trains of thought. I just mean he probably wanted to be definitive and present opinions as if they were facts. Now, I know you really hate Lir, but she follows logical thought patterns like the rest of us.
Zoe zoecomnena@yahoo.com wrote: Please explain how posting speculation is "facts".
Zoe
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