Makes sense to me. If the "articles for deletion" process is usurped by the "articles for purgatory" process then it transforms the debate entirely. If you keep losing at chess than change the game to checkers, rather than continuing to complain about losing at chess.

AFDs cannot conclude as a "merge". AFDs are meant to be a binary decision. Something will either end up getting deleted or not. AFDs shouldn't go any further. - White Cat On Tue, Jan 13, 2009 at 7:42 PM, Ken Arromdee <arromdee(a)rahul.net> wrote: _______________________________________________ WikiEN-l mailing list WikiEN-l(a)lists.wikimedia.org To unsubscribe from this mailing list, visit: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikien-l

"cleanup" is not an AfD result I've ever seen. It has been a long-standing axiom as far as I can remember that AfD is not cleanup. What *can* happen is someone closes as keep or no consensus, and then *adds* their opinion (or that of others) that cleanup is needed. But that is not a close of "cleanup".

Good point. I haven't seen this argument raised prominently before, that fiction articles *don't* swamp our real-world coverage. It would be worth trying to get more rigorous results from a wider survey like this, and finding someone willing to help with some moderate form of statistical analysis. The number of page views is also something that should have more prominence in the debate, in my opinion. Carcharoth _______________________________________________ WikiEN-l mailing list WikiEN-l(a)lists.wikimedia.org To unsubscribe from this mailing list, visit: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikien-l

One side of the issue is aggressively mass removing articles without backing such an act with consensus of any kind. When that happens the other side does not even think of compromising. The opposing side pushes back with equal aggression. This kind of aggressive conflict between any two sides disrupts the entire site. This is what's happening. That is the outstanding problem at this point. It isn't the only outstanding problem but is the first one that needs to be addressed for us to work on a consensus everyone can agree on. Do we all agree thus far? Because neither one of you have said so. I apologize if I missed any remarks establishing this. As for your other point... Just how do you think Google ranks their search results? Google's search results establish the "prime time" articles. Consider "Beowulf" http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&q=Beowulf+site:en.wikipedia.org&… As you can see the historic article (Old English heroic epic poem) is #1. 2007 movie comes as #2. The computer clusters of NASA comes #3. Mind that #1 and #2 are fiction related topics and #3 is a real world topic. In this case the fiction related work is more popular/notable than the real world topic. Consider "Enterprise" http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&safe=off&q=Enterprise+site:en.wi… #1 and #3 is a fiction related. The real world ships (OV-101 & CVN-65) called Enterprise come before the fictional ship (NCC-1701). CV-6 comes as the 20th hit. Consider "Voyager" http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&safe=off&q=Voyager+site:en.wikip… #1 is the fictional series and other 18 hits are not even fiction related. The fictional ship USS voyager comes up in the next page at #21. Consider "Zero" http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&safe=off&q=Zero+site:en.wikipedi… #1 is 0 (number) in mathematics - a real world topic to say the least. #2 is A6M Zero, the Japanese fighter aircraft in WW2. #3 is the fictional character. #4 is a real world topic (chemistry). And the remaining topics are either disambiguation or real world related articles. Of course when I do a search on "Naruto" http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&safe=off&q=Naruto+site:en.wikipe… I get 19 hits on fiction related topics. Even then the 20th is a real world topic! So where exactly is the Google ranking inadequate or unfair? Mind that I made no effort to "hide" fiction related topics in the search urls I posted so far. Had I searched for "Naruto -anime" http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&safe=off&q=Naruto+-anime+site:en… I get 18 real world topics. With the use of a few more words. Consider "Naruto -anime -manga -episodes -user -Wikipedia:featured" http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&safe=off&q=Naruto+-anime+-manga+… "Wikipedia:featured"+site:en.wikipedia.org&btnG=Search<http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&safe=off&q=Naruto+-anime+-manga+-episodes+-user+- I can effectively remove fiction related hits on my search results. Or... I could use smarter search words to get what I am looking for. Consider: "Naruto University" http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&safe=off&q=Naruto+University+sit… All it takes is the use of one extra word to eliminate nearly all fiction related topics. Naruto is among our top 20 most visited articles each month. Even so that doesn't get in the way if you are smart about it. So please tell me what exactly is the problem with fiction related articles as a whole? - White Cat On Tue, Jan 13, 2009 at 10:10 AM, &lt;WJhonson(a)aol.com&gt; wrote: > You are not understanding White Cat what the person means by ranking. > > That there would be a "prime time" Wikipedia, which any reader can > find, > and > then a "sub-surface" Wikipedia for all the articles not deemed > ready to go > to prime time. > > These sub-surface articles would not be googleable let's say, so > reader > wouldn't get side-tracked into thinking they are "acceptable" in the > mainstream, > but they would be present for people already in-world to read and > edit. > > It seems like a simple way to satisfy both sides of the issue here. > > Will Johnson > > > > **************A Good Credit Score is 700 or Above. See yours in > just 2 easy > steps! > ( > http://pr.atwola.com/promoclk/100000075x1215855013x1201028747/aol?redir=htt… > cemailfooterNO62<http://pr.atwola.com/promoclk/100000075x1215855013x1201… >> ) > _______________________________________________ > WikiEN-l mailing list > WikiEN-l(a)lists.wikimedia.org > To unsubscribe from this mailing list, visit: > https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikien-l > _______________________________________________ WikiEN-l mailing list WikiEN-l(a)lists.wikimedia.org To unsubscribe from this mailing list, visit: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikien-l

Which does not connect with the content of my post... So what? How Google determines what should rank higher is not the point of my post. If you read throughly, I have demonstrated how the paranoia towards fiction related topics is baseless and unwarranted. - White Cat On Wed, Jan 14, 2009 at 3:22 PM, Alvaro García &lt;alvareo(a)gmail.com&gt; wrote: _______________________________________________ WikiEN-l mailing list WikiEN-l(a)lists.wikimedia.org To unsubscribe from this mailing list, visit: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikien-l

Sorry but you asked that -maybe retorically-, no need to be rude. -- Alvaro On 14-01-2009, at 10:34, "White Cat" &lt;wikipedia.kawaii.neko(a)gmail.com&gt; wrote: _______________________________________________ WikiEN-l mailing list WikiEN-l(a)lists.wikimedia.org To unsubscribe from this mailing list, visit: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikien-l

Nevermind. -- Alvaro On 14-01-2009, at 11:30, "White Cat" &lt;wikipedia.kawaii.neko(a)gmail.com&gt; wrote: _______________________________________________ WikiEN-l mailing list WikiEN-l(a)lists.wikimedia.org To unsubscribe from this mailing list, visit: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikien-l