I am concerned with WHEELER's anti-semitism. He has made some offensive remarks in the past, but ones I could dismiss as poor communication in the course of heated debate. Now he really has posted an ad hominem non-sequitor on the following page: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Early_National_Socialism/draft#personal_pe... In the context of a discussion with AndyL over the relationship between the Austrian and Hungarian National Socialist movements, WHEELER posted the following: And by the way since you want to declare a pedigree just because your relatives suffered under the Holocaust. [As far as I can tell, this is not true; Andy L always bases his arguments on historical documentation -- SLR] The Nazis also committeed atrocities on the island of Crete. My uncle, Sirodakis, was a great underground fighter. It was my island that lead a ferocious resistance to the Nazis. It was my co-religionists, Catholic priests that went to the camps as well. And it was Jewish communists that destroyed the Orthodox Church in Russia. Many a Christian died in Jewish concentration camps in Russian before the Nazis ever killed a single Jew. So don't cry buster and don't wave your victimhood in my face.[[User:WHEELER|WHEELER]] 15:43, 1 Jul 2004 (UTC)
Not only does this have nothing to do with the article, it is simple, base anti-semitism -- a simple association of bolshevism with Judaism that the Nazis themselves mastered and promoted. I think WHEELER should be banned for it, personally. At the very least it calls for a profound and sincere apology.
Steve
Steven L. Rubenstein Associate Professor Department of Sociology and Anthropology Bentley Annex Ohio University Athens, Ohio 45701
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--- "steven l. rubenstein" rubenste@ohiou.edu wrote:
I am concerned with WHEELER's anti-semitism. He has made some offensive remarks in the past, but ones I could dismiss as poor communication in the course of heated debate. Now he really has posted an ad hominem non-sequitor on the following page:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Early_National_Socialism/draft#personal_pe...
In the context of a discussion with AndyL over the relationship between the Austrian and Hungarian National Socialist movements, WHEELER posted the following: And by the way since you want to declare a pedigree just because your relatives suffered under the Holocaust. [As far as I can tell, this is not true; Andy L always bases his arguments on historical documentation -- SLR] The Nazis also committeed atrocities on the island of Crete. My uncle, Sirodakis, was a great underground fighter. It was my island that lead a ferocious resistance to the Nazis. It was my co-religionists, Catholic priests that went to the camps as well. And it was Jewish communists that destroyed the Orthodox Church in Russia. Many a Christian died in Jewish concentration camps in Russian before the Nazis ever killed a single Jew. So don't cry buster and don't wave your victimhood in my face.[[User:WHEELER|WHEELER]] 15:43, 1 Jul 2004 (UTC)
Not only does this have nothing to do with the article, it is simple, base anti-semitism -- a simple association of bolshevism with Judaism that the Nazis themselves mastered and promoted. I think WHEELER should be banned for it, personally. At the very least it calls for a profound and sincere apology.
Steve
Steven L. Rubenstein Associate Professor Department of Sociology and Anthropology Bentley Annex Ohio University Athens, Ohio 45701
Surely you are aware that he may be correct in stating that some jews may have been communists (it was popular in the Soviet Union between the wars) and that some of them may have been involved in, how shall I say this, "purging" certain "christian" elements out of the New Soviet Society.
On the other hand, he may not be. But for you to say that this did not in fact happen means that your homework is rosk solid.
Calling them concentration camps may stretch the meaning of the word, but in the very liberal sense, camps where people are concentrated may be called concentration camp. Of course, it's a poor choice of words, but it's not illegal.
By the way, my grandfather was sent to a German labort camp. He was a captain in a french armor unit in 1940. So don't assume I don't know what I am talking about.
Finally: calling for a ban does not foster wikilove, so please calm down before clicking send and review your email to make sure it is constructive.
===== Chris Mahan 818.943.1850 cell chris_mahan@yahoo.com chris.mahan@gmail.com http://www.christophermahan.com/
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steven l. rubenstein wrote:
I am concerned with WHEELER's anti-semitism. He has made some offensive remarks in the past, but ones I could dismiss as poor communication in the course of heated debate. Now he really has posted an ad hominem non-sequitor on the following page: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Early_National_Socialism/draft#personal_pe... In the context of a discussion with AndyL over the relationship between the Austrian and Hungarian National Socialist movements, WHEELER posted the following:
And by the way since you want to declare a pedigree just because your relatives suffered under the Holocaust. [As far as I can tell, this is not true; Andy L always bases his arguments on historical documentation -- SLR] The Nazis also committeed atrocities on the island of Crete. My uncle, Sirodakis, was a great underground fighter. It was my island that lead a ferocious resistance to the Nazis. It was my co-religionists, Catholic priests that went to the camps as well. And it was Jewish communists that destroyed the Orthodox Church in Russia. Many a Christian died in Jewish concentration camps in Russian before the Nazis ever killed a single Jew. So don't cry buster and don't wave your victimhood in my face.[[User:WHEELER|WHEELER]] 15:43, 1 Jul 2004 (UTC)
Not only does this have nothing to do with the article, it is simple, base anti-semitism -- a simple association of bolshevism with Judaism that the Nazis themselves mastered and promoted. I think WHEELER should be banned for it, personally. At the very least it calls for a profound and sincere apology.
Steve
Steven L. Rubenstein Associate Professor Department of Sociology and Anthropology Bentley Annex Ohio University Athens, Ohio 45701
Evening Steve :-)
Upon reading the entire wiki talk page, I can see that basically none of it is showing much wikilove between editors. Even before the paragraph that made you react, it seems most of the exchange is pretty dry. I can see a sort of growing tension between the various parties, and I can't say I am surprised of the outcome of it. This is really unfortunate. I think it would be beneficial in such heated or potentially dangerous discussion, to refactor as things go. It many controversial topics as this one, it is frequent for all parties, to say things that they may regret later, or things they wont regret, but realise afterwards are not facilitating discussion. It is often a good move, a constructive move, to change one's comments afterwards, when one realise they may offend. I noticed RK was also frequently doing this, and I think it is a good idea he does so. I think that if both parties had toned a little bit, this might not have happened.
I have trouble realising the level of offense you feel Steve. Offense is something very personal. But obviously, you feel very upset, so that is important. Sam Spade made a wise comment on the talk page. He wrote "I think this particular thread should be dropped. Sam 16:32, 1 Jul 2004 (UTC)". The paragraph in question was obviously meant to hurt. One option is to refuse to be hurt. You may observe a very deep silence in front of it. Or you may remove it. Or you may remove it and copy it on Wheeler talk page. To express your disapproval. If it was hate speech intended to mislead people, it can't mislead people since it is no more there.
About deep and sincere apology request. I suppose I could go on forever on this one. The best is that I suggest that you read : http://meta.wikipedia.org/wiki/Apology I think mixing calling for ban or requesting apology at the same time is tricky. It sounds a bit like a threat, and if the user gives the apology as an attempt to escape the possible ban, then it is not very likely it will be sincere.
I am unhappy about that, but it is a fact unfortunately that on Wikipedia, some very uncivil comments are made to other users. When it happens, and if you make a comment stating your deep disapproval, two main things may happen : * the uncivil comment was meant to hurt you and to win a battle, and the offender does not care about you or preserving your relationship. Chance is that no apology and no removal/refactoring for the comment will be done, whatever the request. Either the hurt person drops the topic, or it goes to some punishment for the offender * the uncivil comment was given in the heat of the discussion, and the offended feelings or the community reaction is important to the offender, and apology or repair of some sort will be offered.
In the first case, mediation is useless. If you care very much about the topic, try arbitration. In the second case, arbitration would be disastrous, as you will ruin chances for peaceful settlement.
Does that answer your question ?