2008/11/26 Michael Everson everson@evertype.com:
I don't know whether this is a reasonable place to put this problem, but the articles on Ireland on en.wikipedia.org need a serious look by people with a neutral view.
wikien-l might be a better location; I've sent this reply there.
Right now we've got a clique of about 10 editors filibustering and preventing any change to the article naming conventions. It's driving us mad, and preventing the articles themselves from being improved. Somehow I think we need binding arbitration.
Having had a look at these debates once or twice before (and a similar set involving the term "British Isles"), yeah, they're big and messy and affect a lot of articles. A resolution would be good for everyone.
A number of us think that the most sensible proposal is to move [[Ireland]] to [[Ireland (island)]], [[Ireland (disambiguation)]] to [[Ireland]], and [[Republic of Ireland]] to [[Ireland (state)]]. That's a compromise over an alternative, which is to move [[Ireland]] to [[Ireland (island)]], keep [[Ireland (disambiguation)]] where it is, and move [[Republic of Ireland]] to [[Ireland]]. If any of you would like to take a look, please see http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Ireland_(disambiguation)#Proposed_move_to_... and http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Ireland#Proposed_move_to_Ireland_.28island...
A quick summary of the background, for those who (like me) have to keep reminding themselves of the nuances:
"Ireland" is a big lump of land northwest of France. It contains two political entities, "Ireland" (that's the formal name), an independent nation state sometimes known as "Eire" or (mostly in the UK) "the Republic of Ireland", and "Northern Ireland", which is a part of the UK. Prior to the 1920s, both were one and the same political entity, which occupied all of the geographical island; this historical period is described under [[Kingdom of Ireland]], etc.
Currently:
[[Ireland (disambiguation)]] - disambiguation page. [[Ireland]] - geographical entity, primary title [[Republic of Ireland]] - political entity
Proposal #1 above:
[[Ireland]] - disambiguation page, primary title [[Ireland (island)]] - geographical entity [[Ireland (state)]] - political entity
Proposal #2 above:
[[Ireland (disambiguation)]] - disambiguation page. [[Ireland (island)]] - geographical entity [[Ireland]] - political entity, primary title
On 26 Nov 2008, at 13:33, Andrew Gray wrote:
Having had a look at these debates once or twice before (and a similar set involving the term "British Isles"), yeah, they're big and messy and affect a lot of articles. A resolution would be good for everyone.
Ain't that the truth. It would be nicer to be able to improve the articles than to fight a battle that isn't even being fought any more.
A quick summary of the background, for those who (like me) have to keep reminding themselves of the nuances:
"Ireland" is a big lump of land northwest of France. It contains two political entities, "Ireland" (that's the formal name), an independent nation state sometimes known as "Eire" or (mostly in the UK) "the Republic of Ireland", and "Northern Ireland", which is a part of the UK. Prior to the 1920s, both were one and the same political entity, which occupied all of the geographical island; this historical period is described under [[Kingdom of Ireland]], etc.
To be specific, the Constitution of Ireland says that the name of the State is "Ireland" in English and "Éire" in Irish. A later Act defines "Republic of Ireland" to be the "description" of the State, but that is not its name. (Arcane? Yes, but nevertheless. see http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Republic_of_Ireland_Act)
Currently:
[[Ireland (disambiguation)]] - disambiguation page. [[Ireland]] - geographical entity, primary title [[Republic of Ireland]] - political entity
This one has two "political" disadvantages. Oversimplifying hugely, Northern Ireland editors seem to like calling Ireland "The Republic of Ireland" and this annoys Ireland editors.
Proposal #1 above:
[[Ireland]] - disambiguation page, primary title [[Ireland (island)]] - geographical entity [[Ireland (state)]] - political entity
This one seems to me to be the only true compromise.
Proposal #2 above:
[[Ireland (disambiguation)]] - disambiguation page. [[Ireland (island)]] - geographical entity [[Ireland]] - political entity, primary title
This one has two "political" disadvantages. Oversimplifying hugely, Ireland editors seem to like calling Ireland "Ireland" and this annoys Northern Ireland editors.
Michael Everson * http://www.evertype.com
2008/11/26 Michael Everson everson@evertype.com:
This one has two "political" disadvantages. Oversimplifying hugely, Northern Ireland editors seem to like calling Ireland "The Republic of Ireland" and this annoys Ireland editors. This one has two "political" disadvantages. Oversimplifying hugely, Ireland editors seem to like calling Ireland "Ireland" and this annoys Northern Ireland editors.
Editors aren't the people to survey for what readers would expect :-)
What would readers expect? That's readers from around the world, and including countries where English isn't a common first language - en:wp is very international in readership. I wonder how we'd frame that question usefully in a way that would generate usably objective numbers.
- d.
So hang on a second here -- can someone please explain what's so horrifyingly inadequate about the current state that things need to be renamed? Unless something is completely disingenuous about the name "Republic of Ireland," I'm not seeing a pressing need for these changes. - GlassCobra
On Wed, Nov 26, 2008 at 3:33 PM, Andrew Gray shimgray@gmail.com wrote:
2008/11/26 Michael Everson everson@evertype.com:
I don't know whether this is a reasonable place to put this problem, but the articles on Ireland on en.wikipedia.org need a serious look by people with a neutral view.
wikien-l might be a better location; I've sent this reply there.
Right now we've got a clique of about 10 editors filibustering and preventing any change to the article naming conventions. It's driving us mad, and preventing the articles themselves from being improved. Somehow I think we need binding arbitration.
Having had a look at these debates once or twice before (and a similar set involving the term "British Isles"), yeah, they're big and messy and affect a lot of articles. A resolution would be good for everyone.
A number of us think that the most sensible proposal is to move [[Ireland]] to [[Ireland (island)]], [[Ireland (disambiguation)]] to [[Ireland]], and [[Republic of Ireland]] to [[Ireland (state)]]. That's a compromise over an alternative, which is to move [[Ireland]] to [[Ireland (island)]], keep [[Ireland (disambiguation)]] where it is, and move [[Republic of Ireland]] to [[Ireland]]. If any of you would like to take a look, please see
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Ireland_(disambiguation)#Proposed_move_to_...
and
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Ireland#Proposed_move_to_Ireland_.28island...
A quick summary of the background, for those who (like me) have to keep reminding themselves of the nuances:
"Ireland" is a big lump of land northwest of France. It contains two political entities, "Ireland" (that's the formal name), an independent nation state sometimes known as "Eire" or (mostly in the UK) "the Republic of Ireland", and "Northern Ireland", which is a part of the UK. Prior to the 1920s, both were one and the same political entity, which occupied all of the geographical island; this historical period is described under [[Kingdom of Ireland]], etc.
Currently:
[[Ireland (disambiguation)]] - disambiguation page. [[Ireland]] - geographical entity, primary title [[Republic of Ireland]] - political entity
Proposal #1 above:
[[Ireland]] - disambiguation page, primary title [[Ireland (island)]] - geographical entity [[Ireland (state)]] - political entity
Proposal #2 above:
[[Ireland (disambiguation)]] - disambiguation page. [[Ireland (island)]] - geographical entity [[Ireland]] - political entity, primary title
--
- Andrew Gray
andrew.gray@dunelm.org.uk
WikiEN-l mailing list WikiEN-l@lists.wikimedia.org To unsubscribe from this mailing list, visit: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikien-l
On 26 Nov 2008, at 14:49, Alex Sawczynec wrote:
So hang on a second here -- can someone please explain what's so horrifyingly inadequate about the current state that things need to be renamed? Unless something is completely disingenuous about the name "Republic of Ireland," I'm not seeing a pressing need for these changes.
- GlassCobra
People who live in Ireland (the state) prefer its formal name "Ireland" to the description "Republic of Ireland". It does not say "Republic of Ireland" on our passports (for instance). The rest of the world calls it Ireland, too. It is some Northern Ireland editors who insist that "Republic of Ireland" be used, and this causes endless debate.
Michael Everson * http://www.evertype.com
2008/11/26 Michael Everson everson@evertype.com:
People who live in Ireland (the state) prefer its formal name "Ireland" to the description "Republic of Ireland". It does not say "Republic of Ireland" on our passports (for instance). The rest of the world calls it Ireland, too. It is some Northern Ireland editors who insist that "Republic of Ireland" be used, and this causes endless debate.
Sounds horribly like http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Macedonia .
- d.
On 26 Nov 2008, at 15:08, David Gerard wrote:
Sounds horribly like http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Macedonia .
Horrible, maybe, but how do we get a solution?
Michael Everson * http://www.evertype.com
2008/11/26 Michael Everson everson@evertype.com:
On 26 Nov 2008, at 15:08, David Gerard wrote:
Sounds horribly like http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Macedonia .
Horrible, maybe, but how do we get a solution?
I'm pretty much suggesting some sort of numbers on what readers expect as a convincing pointer on which way to go. We're all supposed to be doing this to build a resource to be used, after all.
How to gather these is more difficult. If we could trace navigation through pages (even anonymised), that'd help a lot. (Though it sounds like a minefield of privacy pitfalls.) Failing that, gathering numbers as widely as possible outside Wikipedia, in a manner that all sides would accept as usably objective, would be good. Not that I can think of one off the top of my head.
- d.
On 26 Nov 2008, at 15:25, David Gerard wrote:
I'm pretty much suggesting some sort of numbers on what readers expect as a convincing pointer on which way to go. We're all supposed to be doing this to build a resource to be used, after all.
If you proved that most people were looking for the country, "Ireland" as a name for what is now "Republic of Ireland" would still be controversial because the Northern Ireland editors dislike it so much, I'm afraid.
Michael Everson * http://www.evertype.com
2008/11/26 Michael Everson everson@evertype.com:
On 26 Nov 2008, at 15:25, David Gerard wrote:
I'm pretty much suggesting some sort of numbers on what readers expect as a convincing pointer on which way to go. We're all supposed to be doing this to build a resource to be used, after all.
If you proved that most people were looking for the country, "Ireland" as a name for what is now "Republic of Ireland" would still be controversial because the Northern Ireland editors dislike it so much, I'm afraid.
Maybe we should compromise on calling the country [[Secessionist Ireland]], and rename [[Northern Ireland]] to [[Occupied Ireland]]. Annoy and mislead both sides equally :-)
More seriously, what I don't understand here is why there's opposition to primary disambiguation at [[Ireland]], at least as a temporary measure - I get the impression there's not any broad support for the current approach as the best option, and almost everyone seems to concur "Republic of Ireland" isn't very good. You seem to be the one with experience of the fight...
We could call them both Eyre (Papist) and Eyre (Damned) and annoy everyone even more thoroughly, although I sincerely doubt anything will work in the opposite direction and calm the situation. Someone said at the beginning of this that this is one of those longstanding disagreements; I concur it will not be easily or even perhaps ever resolved. Take it back to the 'pedia, via talk pages and dispute resolution, as whatever happens on this list it cannot by definition resolve any content dispute on wiki.
One puppy's opinion.
Andrew Gray wrote:
Maybe we should compromise on calling the country [[Secessionist Ireland]], and rename [[Northern Ireland]] to [[Occupied Ireland]]. Annoy and mislead both sides equally :-)
More seriously, what I don't understand here is why there's opposition to primary disambiguation at [[Ireland]], at least as a temporary measure - I get the impression there's not any broad support for the current approach as the best option, and almost everyone seems to concur "Republic of Ireland" isn't very good. You seem to be the one with experience of the fight...
On 26 Nov 2008, at 15:51, Puppy (KillerChihuahua) wrote:
Take it back to the 'pedia, via talk pages and dispute resolution, as whatever happens on this list it cannot by definition resolve any content dispute on wiki.
I was hoping you folks could help more helpfully. :-( I came here because it isn't working there.
Michael Everson * http://www.evertype.com
Michael Everson wrote:
On 26 Nov 2008, at 15:51, Puppy (KillerChihuahua) wrote:
Take it back to the 'pedia, via talk pages and dispute resolution, as whatever happens on this list it cannot by definition resolve any content dispute on wiki.
I was hoping you folks could help more helpfully. :-( I came here because it isn't working there.
Michael Everson * http://www.evertype.com
Well as I said that was merely my opinion - David Gerard and several others are putting forth considerable effort to make a logical determination based upon usage statistics, if my scanning of their emails is correct, so you may receive the help you were hoping for from others here. I merely wished to note that few things on Wikipedia are ever solved or settled completely, and any solution must pass muster on the wiki itself after being proposed here.
-kc-
On 26 Nov 2008, at 15:43, Andrew Gray wrote:
More seriously, what I don't understand here is why there's opposition to primary disambiguation at [[Ireland]], at least as a temporary measure -
Nor do I. I think the bad faith (yeah) is on the part of the Northern Ireland editors who accuse "us" of attempting to remove "Republic of Ireland" by "stealth".
I get the impression there's not any broad support for the current approach as the best option,
Correct.
and almost everyone seems to concur "Republic of Ireland" isn't very good. You seem to be the one with experience of the fight...
And it's not even my main area of interest.
Michael Everson * http://www.evertype.com
2008/11/26 Alex Sawczynec glasscobra15@gmail.com:
So hang on a second here -- can someone please explain what's so horrifyingly inadequate about the current state that things need to be renamed? Unless something is completely disingenuous about the name "Republic of Ireland," I'm not seeing a pressing need for these changes.
Um, I was wondering that too.
Let's assume a reader of Wikipedia isn't going to go through megabytes of talk-page arguments and frankly couldn't give a hoot about editor conduct issues. They just want to look stuff up.
What's in it for the readers?
What's a one-sentence statement of the compelling reason from each side, stated from a neutral point of view?
- d.
On 26 Nov 2008, at 14:53, David Gerard wrote:
Let's assume a reader of Wikipedia isn't going to go through megabytes of talk-page arguments and frankly couldn't give a hoot about editor conduct issues. They just want to look stuff up.
The name "Ireland" is ambiguous. People looking for it might be looking for the state. Most probably are. Or people looking for it might be looking for the island.
Since the Ireland should point to the disambiguation page, the correct thing to do is to move that content to Ireland (island) as proposed here.
What's in it for the readers?
What's a one-sentence statement of the compelling reason from each side, stated from a neutral point of view?
One sentence from Una Smith:
"An ambiguous title such as Ireland should be a disambiguation page, because it is Ireland that will accumulate incoming links needing disambiguation and the task of disambiguating them is made vastly more difficult if Ireland also has "correct" incoming links that refer to one topic by that name."
Apart from that I have sent some other answers trying to be neutral, but my posts are being held for moderation.
Michael Everson * http://www.evertype.com
2008/11/26 Michael Everson everson@evertype.com:
The name "Ireland" is ambiguous. People looking for it might be looking for the state. Most probably are. Or people looking for it might be looking for the island. Since the Ireland should point to the disambiguation page, the correct thing to do is to move that content to Ireland (island) as proposed here.
OK. Do we have any numbers on that? Can we back up that "probably"?
(I don't know if we do or can. We have accurate hit counts for pages, but not for navigation between pages that I know of.)
Personally if I went to "Ireland" I'd expect to see the page for the country, but I know that's just me.
One sentence from Una Smith: "An ambiguous title such as Ireland should be a disambiguation page, because it is Ireland that will accumulate incoming links needing disambiguation and the task of disambiguating them is made vastly more difficult if Ireland also has "correct" incoming links that refer to one topic by that name."
What are the actual numbers on incoming links to [[Ireland]]?
Apart from that I have sent some other answers trying to be neutral, but my posts are being held for moderation.
I just let them through and you're off mod. Sorry for the inconvenience :-)
- d.
2008/11/26 David Gerard dgerard@gmail.com
2008/11/26 Michael Everson everson@evertype.com:
The name "Ireland" is ambiguous. People looking for it might be looking
for
the state. Most probably are. Or people looking for it might be looking
for
the island. Since the Ireland should point to the disambiguation page, the correct thing to do is to move that content to Ireland (island) as proposed here.
OK. Do we have any numbers on that? Can we back up that "probably"?
(I don't know if we do or can. We have accurate hit counts for pages, but not for navigation between pages that I know of.)
Personally if I went to "Ireland" I'd expect to see the page for the country, but I know that's just me.
Ah, but by country, do you mean the State (which does not include Northern Ireland) or the Nation (which does include Northern Ireland just as it did pre-partition, albeit part is also "British" in the same way someone from Scotland is Scottish and British)?
My vote is for Ireland to be a disambiguation page. As someone from Ireland I am not happy to have the page "Ireland" concern only the State, as the state is only part of both the island and nation.
Zoney
On 26 Nov 2008, at 16:13, Zoney wrote:
My vote is for Ireland to be a disambiguation page.
Did you go and vote?
As someone from Ireland I am not happy to have the page "Ireland" concern only the State, as the state is only part of both the island and nation.
Yes, that's why we propose
[[Ireland]] - disambiguation page, primary title [[Ireland (island)]] - geographical entity [[Ireland (state)]] - political entity
Michael Everson * http://www.evertype.com
2008/11/26 David Gerard dgerard@gmail.com:
2008/11/26 Michael Everson everson@evertype.com:
The name "Ireland" is ambiguous. People looking for it might be looking for the state. Most probably are. Or people looking for it might be looking for the island. Since the Ireland should point to the disambiguation page, the correct thing to do is to move that content to Ireland (island) as proposed here.
At least if [[Ireland]] were about the island, the lead paragraph could state that the island contains both Eire and Northern Ireland, of the UK. Although [[Ireland]] as a disambiguation page would be preferable, in my opinion.
Keep in mind that an encyclopedia is not entirely present-focussed. Ireland also is a historical entity where the whole island was a single state. Many biography articles stating that a person was born in Ireland refer to the island-state.
David Gerard wrote:
Let's assume a reader of Wikipedia isn't going to go through megabytes of talk-page arguments and frankly couldn't give a hoot about editor conduct issues. They just want to look stuff up.
Right.
What's a one-sentence statement of the compelling reason from each side, stated from a neutral point of view?
A reader typing in "Ireland" (or an editor linking [[Ireland]]) is almost certainly thinking about the country, not the geological structure.
2008/11/26 Steve Summit scs@eskimo.com:
A reader typing in "Ireland" (or an editor linking [[Ireland]]) is almost certainly thinking about the country, not the geological structure.
Can we get numbers anywhere to prove or disprove that "almost certainly"?
- d.
On 26 Nov 2008, at 15:09, David Gerard wrote:
2008/11/26 Steve Summit scs@eskimo.com:
A reader typing in "Ireland" (or an editor linking [[Ireland]]) is almost certainly thinking about the country, not the geological structure.
Can we get numbers anywhere to prove or disprove that "almost certainly"?
I remember seeing something at some stage, but I can't remember which page (of the many many many pages) it was. Perhaps it's on http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia_talk:Manual_of_Style_(Ireland-related...
Maybe a bot can do it.
Michael Everson * http://www.evertype.com
2008/11/26 David Gerard dgerard@gmail.com:
2008/11/26 Steve Summit scs@eskimo.com:
A reader typing in "Ireland" (or an editor linking [[Ireland]]) is almost certainly thinking about the country, not the geological structure.
Can we get numbers anywhere to prove or disprove that "almost certainly"?
A suggested method for doing so, but one which unfortunately needs some hacking around:
Relink *every single internal link* to go to a subsidiary article *or* a redirect to the current one, but so that no inbound links point simply to [[Ireland]].
[[Ireland (disambiguation)]] [[Ireland (country)]] [[Ireland (island)]]
and also the various historical articles: [[Irish Free State]], [[Kingdom of Ireland]], etc. (People writing "Ireland" often mean the political entity *but* pre-1922, remember, and it's a bit confusing to have an article talking about St. Aidan travelling to the modern nation...)
Then, once nothing links directly to the offending "main title", watch wikistats for a week. See what the relative traffic figures are, and combine that with the number of inbound links to each. (The traffic just to [[Ireland]] will probably reflect incoming searches, if it can't be internal.)
I suspect we'll end up with the largest single fraction of traffic going to articles on the modern country, but not an overwhelming majority. Remember just how much history we have...
Of course, this solution is probably entirely impractical and would cause even more screaming :-)
On 11/26/08, Steve Summit scs@eskimo.com wrote:
A reader typing in "Ireland" (or an editor linking [[Ireland]]) is almost certainly thinking about the country, not the geological structure.
Most probably, most users who type in "Ireland" are looking for the article about the Republic of Ireland. However, we can't escape the fact that the term Ireland is ambiguous. Some users would be unaware that six of the 32 Irish counties are not currently part of the Republic.
On 26 Nov 2008, at 15:16, Sam Blacketer wrote:
Most probably, most users who type in "Ireland" are looking for the article about the Republic of Ireland. However, we can't escape the fact that the term Ireland is ambiguous. Some users would be unaware that six of the 32 Irish counties are not currently part of the Republic.
That's why "Ireland" being the disambiguation page is the first right choice here.
Yes, there will have to be some work focussing on piping to "Ireland (state)" and "Ireland (island)" but at least these terms are both accurate and relatively neutral.
Michael Everson * http://www.evertype.com
On Wed, Nov 26, 2008 at 7:16 AM, Sam Blacketer sam.blacketer@googlemail.com wrote:
On 11/26/08, Steve Summit scs@eskimo.com wrote:
A reader typing in "Ireland" (or an editor linking [[Ireland]]) is almost certainly thinking about the country, not the geological structure.
Most probably, most users who type in "Ireland" are looking for the article about the Republic of Ireland. However, we can't escape the fact that the term Ireland is ambiguous. Some users would be unaware that six of the 32 Irish counties are not currently part of the Republic.
I would actually argue that a reader who doesn't know anything about Ireland (picture a schoolchild in the US doing a project for St. Patrick's day) would be expecting to get exactly the article that is currently located at "Ireland". Both the current Republic of Ireland and Northern Ireland articles are heavily focussed on the historical and political situation, and not the kind of comprehensive overview that is currently at "Ireland." What if I don't even know there are two countries on the island, let alone which one is which? It's pretty confusing to be sent to a disambiguation page when I'm just trying to look up something that is a pretty basic geographical topic.
Would just moving Republic of Ireland to [[Ireland (state)]] and leaving the rest alone be acceptable? The latter title would avoid any unfortunate political connotations as it's a straight disambiguation title, but would still leave the background article at the main title.
-- phoebe
On 26 Nov 2008, at 19:29, phoebe ayers wrote:
Most probably, most users who type in "Ireland" are looking for the article about the Republic of Ireland. However, we can't escape the fact that the term Ireland is ambiguous. Some users would be unaware that six of the 32 Irish counties are not currently part of the Republic.
I would actually argue that a reader who doesn't know anything about Ireland (picture a schoolchild in the US doing a project for St. Patrick's day)
I don't think Ireland is all that obscure.
... would be expecting to get exactly the article that is currently located at "Ireland".
I tend to think that we should aim the bar a bit higher.
Both the current Republic of Ireland and Northern Ireland articles are heavily focussed on the historical and political situation, and not the kind of comprehensive overview that is currently at "Ireland."
Much that is at the "Ireland" article shouldn't be there, as it belongs either to "Ireland (state)" or "Northern Ireland". Compare the article at "Great Britain" (the name of the island next to Ireland). That's why it's proposed that "Ireland" be a disambiguation page.
What if I don't even know there are two countries on the island, let alone which one is which?
That's what the disambiguation page is for.
It's pretty confusing to be sent to a disambiguation page when I'm just trying to look up something that is a pretty basic geographical topic.
We do it all the time. See "Georgia". Or "Macedonia".
Would just moving Republic of Ireland to [[Ireland (state)]] and leaving the rest alone be acceptable?
I don't think that goes far enough.
The latter title would avoid any unfortunate political connotations as it's a straight disambiguation title, but would still leave the background article at the main title.
As I say we've identified problems with the main title vis à vis "Great Britain". But we can't make the needed edits (with confidence) without "Ireland (island)".
Michael Everson * http://www.evertype.com
On Wed, Nov 26, 2008 at 11:57 AM, Michael Everson everson@evertype.com wrote:
On 26 Nov 2008, at 19:29, phoebe ayers wrote:
Most probably, most users who type in "Ireland" are looking for the article about the Republic of Ireland. However, we can't escape the fact that the term Ireland is ambiguous. Some users would be unaware that six of the 32 Irish counties are not currently part of the Republic.
I would actually argue that a reader who doesn't know anything about Ireland (picture a schoolchild in the US doing a project for St. Patrick's day)
I don't think Ireland is all that obscure.
... would be expecting to get exactly the article that is currently located at "Ireland".
I tend to think that we should aim the bar a bit higher.
Just reiterating the perspective of someone not from the UK or Ireland here.. the situation is most certainly that obscure if one is learning about it for the first time. (I have ten years of college under my belt, and I could no more name the counties of Ireland than fly, let alone know which state they belonged to; nor can I tell you how and why the partition came about -- information that I would expect to find in a general article when I type in "ireland"). The general articles on a topic are *not* for people who already know all about that topic.
I would wager that even when most educated adults in the US think of the concept of "Ireland", they think of things like leprechauns and Guinness, not the political divisions (except perhaps in a headline-in-the-news way). And if such cultural and historical information (Ray brought up a good point about the history of the island) is what I am looking for, then how precisely am I supposed to know to click on the "Ireland (island)" article? I see a disambiguation title like that and I think about geology -- how was the actual island formed, and so on. Since that's not (entirely) the case, I find it confusing.
And just as a point of order, you (Michael) seem to be unwilling to consider any ideas other than the one you first presented, which isn't really much of a debate or compromise on the subject. Why even bring it up if you don't want input?
-- phoebe
On 28 Nov 2008, at 18:26, phoebe ayers wrote:
Just reiterating the perspective of someone not from the UK or Ireland here.. the situation is most certainly that obscure if one is learning about it for the first time.
Fortunately, we have the Wikipedia. ;-)
(I have ten years of college under my belt, and I could no more name the counties of Ireland than fly, let alone know which state they belonged to;
There are 32 counties in Ireland (island), 6 of which belong to the UK and 26 of which belong to Ireland (state).
nor can I tell you how and why the partition came about -- information that I would expect to find in a general article when I type in "ireland"). The general articles on a topic are *not* for people who already know all about that topic.
And so you might, if "Ireland" were not an ambiguous term. The problem is some editors from Northern Ireland hate the fact that the Irish state calls itself Ireland. So the articles get more and more complicated. See this http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Ireland_disambiguation_task_force/cro... for a summary. Our present activity is to try to get the article nomenclature sorted out so that things can be put into the right places.
I would wager that even when most educated adults in the US think of the concept of "Ireland", they think of things like leprechauns and Guinness, not the political divisions (except perhaps in a headline- in-the-news way).
Blame US education?
And if such cultural and historical information (Ray brought up a good point about the history of the island) is what I am looking for, then how precisely am I supposed to know to click on the "Ireland (island)" article?
I would expect the disambiguation page to be well-written.
I see a disambiguation title like that and I think about geology -- how was the actual island formed, and so on. Since that's not (entirely) the case, I find it confusing.
The dab page doesn't have to be just a list of links.
And just as a point of order, you (Michael) seem to be unwilling to consider any ideas other than the one you first presented, which isn't really much of a debate or compromise on the subject. Why even bring it up if you don't want input?
I'm endeavouring to summarize what the arguments have been. There are some proposals that are really non-starters. Others seem to be good but over on at the RM we have a core of resistence to change. Input could be usefully given there. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Ireland#Proposed_move_to_Ireland_.28island...
It's a lot to read, I know. A number of us believe that the proposed compromise is the only one that has a chance of lasting long-term. I invite you to read that talk article (it's in three parts now) and try to support the proposed compromise.
Michael Everson * http://www.evertype.com
Michael Everson wrote:
On 28 Nov 2008, at 18:26, phoebe ayers wrot
I would wager that even when most educated adults in the US think of the concept of "Ireland", they think of things like leprechauns and Guinness, not the political divisions (except perhaps in a headline- in-the-news way).
Blame US education?
It would also be consistent with Guinness's marketing strategy. In a radio programme here (fortuitously since this thread started) a Guinness representative was quoted as saying that when Ireland is mentioned they want you to think Guinness.
And just as a point of order, you (Michael) seem to be unwilling to consider any ideas other than the one you first presented, which isn't really much of a debate or compromise on the subject. Why even bring it up if you don't want input?
I'm endeavouring to summarize what the arguments have been. There are some proposals that are really non-starters. Others seem to be good but over on at the RM we have a core of resistence to change. Input could be usefully given there. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Ireland#Proposed_move_to_Ireland_.28island...
It's a lot to read, I know. A number of us believe that the proposed compromise is the only one that has a chance of lasting long-term. I invite you to read that talk article (it's in three parts now) and try to support the proposed compromise.
Ploughing through that stubble-field won't grow any potatoes.
This so-called attempt to compromise is more characteristic of a radical change from the status quo. ... Perhaps like those Irish classes that reacted to the opening of "The Plough and the Stars" at the Abbey Theatre.
Ec
Ray Saintonge schreef:
It would also be consistent with Guinness's marketing strategy. In a radio programme here (fortuitously since this thread started) a Guinness representative was quoted as saying that when Ireland is mentioned they want you to think Guinness.
Another reason to make [[Ireland]] a disambiguation page.
Eugene
Steve Summit wrote:
David Gerard wrote:
What's a one-sentence statement of the compelling reason from each side, stated from a neutral point of view?
A reader typing in "Ireland" (or an editor linking [[Ireland]]) is almost certainly thinking about the country, not the geological structure.
It's not just about those two extremes. If I state that certain of my ancestors came from Ireland around the time of the famine it is talking about Ireland as who whole before the disunification of 1922. This is about more than mere geology. So Ireland as the Republic or the State or whatever term you choose to use is clearly about what happened in the part that successfully cast off the shackles of occupation since 1922. For certain partisans of the "Republic" to assume a monopoly on the name, Ireland, seems an improper usurpation of the name for personal ends.
Ec
On 27 Nov 2008, at 01:51, Ray Saintonge wrote:
So Ireland as the Republic or the State or whatever term you choose to use is clearly about what happened in the part that successfully cast off the shackles of occupation since 1922. For certain partisans of the "Republic" to assume a monopoly on the name, Ireland, seems an improper usurpation of the name for personal ends.
We haven't proposed that. We proposed "Ireland (state)".
I am not a "partisan of the 'Republic'" either. I am, however, a citizen of Ireland (not of the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland).
Michael Everson * http://www.evertype.com
2008/11/27 Michael Everson everson@evertype.com:
We haven't proposed that. We proposed "Ireland (state)".
That has a slight smell of neologism - is the term used anywhere outside Wikipedia?
At least "Republic of Ireland" is something it's called in an official document on the state's formation.
Putting the article on Macedonia the country at [[Republic of Macedonia]] has at least kept the argument there down to a dull roar.
The other problem is that voting frequently sucks as a method of ascertaining consensus.
- d.
On 27 Nov 2008, at 12:05, David Gerard wrote:
2008/11/27 Michael Everson everson@evertype.com:
We haven't proposed that. We proposed "Ireland (state)".
That has a slight smell of neologism - is the term used anywhere outside Wikipedia?
It is no different from "Georgia (country)"
At least "Republic of Ireland" is something it's called in an official document on the state's formation.
Incorrect. The Constitution of Ireland (1937) specifies that "Ireland" is the name of the state. The Republic of Ireland Act (1948) specifies that "Republic of Ireland" is a "description" of the state.
Once again, the best compromise proposal:
Ireland --> disambiguation page Ireland (island) --> about the island, comparable to the "Great Britain" article Ireland (state) --> about the state.
And yes, I prefer Ireland --> about the state but I recognize that this is no compromise.
Putting the article on Macedonia the country at [[Republic of Macedonia]] has at least kept the argument there down to a dull roar.
The name of Macedonia is "Република Македонија" (Republika Makedonija). This is not the same situation we have in Ireland.
The other problem is that voting frequently sucks as a method of ascertaining consensus.
Certainly, as the Northerners seem to be out filling the vote with unsupported Oppose votes. 'Cause they have not wanted to compromise.
Michael Everson * http://www.evertype.com
Michael Everson wrote:
On 27 Nov 2008, at 12:05, David Gerard wrote:
2008/11/27 Michael Everson everson@evertype.com:
We haven't proposed that. We proposed "Ireland (state)".
That has a slight smell of neologism - is the term used anywhere outside Wikipedia?
It is no different from "Georgia (country)"
That's because the nationals of a few small countries perceive a "state" to be a political subdivision.
At least "Republic of Ireland" is something it's called in an official document on the state's formation.
Incorrect. The Constitution of Ireland (1937) specifies that "Ireland" is the name of the state. The Republic of Ireland Act (1948) specifies that "Republic of Ireland" is a "description" of the state.
Does the 1937 Constitution actually use the word "state"?
Would [[Ireland (Republic)]] be sufficient to emphasize that the term "republic" is merely descriptive.
Once again, the best compromise proposal:
Ireland --> disambiguation page Ireland (island) --> about the island, comparable to the "Great Britain" article Ireland (state) --> about the state.
While I have no difficulty with [[Ireland (state)]]. I think that reducing [[Iteland]] to a disambiguation page diminishes the term. There is nothing in what your proposal that would adequately deal with pre-1922 Ireland.
Ec
On 28 Nov 2008, at 00:27, Ray Saintonge wrote:
Michael Everson wrote:
On 27 Nov 2008, at 12:05, David Gerard wrote:
2008/11/27 Michael Everson everson@evertype.com:
We haven't proposed that. We proposed "Ireland (state)".
That has a slight smell of neologism - is the term used anywhere outside Wikipedia?
It is no different from "Georgia (country)"
That's because the nationals of a few small countries perceive a "state" to be a political subdivision.
I don't understand. "Georgia (country)" and "Georgia (state)" would both = Sakartvelo and both contrast with "Georgia (U.S. State)". And the U.S. States are sovereign in a sense (California is more sovereign than County Mayo in Ireland is), though they also are part of a federal structure which is the top-level subdivision in terms of UN recognition.
At least "Republic of Ireland" is something it's called in an official document on the state's formation.
Incorrect. The Constitution of Ireland (1937) specifies that "Ireland" is the name of the state. The Republic of Ireland Act (1948) specifies that "Republic of Ireland" is a "description" of the state.
Does the 1937 Constitution actually use the word "state"?
Yes. Clause 2 is "the State" and section 4 states "The name of the State is Éire, or, in the English language, Ireland."
Would [[Ireland (Republic)]] be sufficient to emphasize that the term "republic" is merely descriptive.
I don't believe it would be preferable. to changee [[Republic of Ireland]] to [[Ireland (republic)]] or to [[Ireland (Republic)]] -- I think you'd get push-back on that. I could ask, but just at the moment that might be poking the hornet's nest.
Once again, the best compromise proposal:
Ireland --> disambiguation page Ireland (island) --> about the island, comparable to the "Great Britain" article Ireland (state) --> about the state.
While I have no difficulty with [[Ireland (state)]]. I think that reducing [[Ireland]] to a disambiguation page diminishes the term.
"Diminish"? I don't see how. The word "Ireland" is well and truly ambiguous. It *could* point to the modern state, but that pisses a lot of Northern Ireland editors off. Hence the compromise.
There is nothing in what your proposal that would adequately deal with pre-1922 Ireland.
You mean, pre-1922 Ireland as a political unit? [[Irish_Free_State]] deals with Ireland 1922-1937; The proposed [[Ireland (state)]] deals with the modern country. We've got [[Irish_states_since_1171]]. I don't see the problem. It's a complex situation. With the article name changes as proposed I think we'd have a good shot at sorting out the articles though.
Michael Everson * http://www.evertype.com
2008/11/28 Michael Everson everson@evertype.com:
I don't believe it would be preferable. to changee [[Republic of Ireland]] to [[Ireland (republic)]] or to [[Ireland (Republic)]] -- I think you'd get push-back on that. I could ask, but just at the moment that might be poking the hornet's nest.
Leaving aside the political overtones..
If you're going to do bracketed disambiguation then either (country) or (state) is preferable, since you're disambiguating versus the island - we always use the most general term possible, and (republic) is a bit precise. Using (republic) would suggest that the other cases were defined by being something other than a republic, which is a bit of a category error...
On 28 Nov 2008, at 12:45, Andrew Gray wrote:
2008/11/28 Michael Everson everson@evertype.com:
I don't believe it would be preferable. to changee [[Republic of Ireland]] to [[Ireland (republic)]] or to [[Ireland (Republic)]] -- I think you'd get push-back on that. I could ask, but just at the moment that might be poking the hornet's nest.
Leaving aside the political overtones..
They're not mine. I'm describing what you'd probably get if you asked for this.
If you're going to do bracketed disambiguation then either (country) or (state) is preferable, since you're disambiguating versus the island - we always use the most general term possible,
"Country" can be broader than "State" in this context; some people have already pointed this out during the discussion. "Ireland's my country" can apply to people in N. Ireland (as they see it) though "Ireland's the State I live in" would not.
and (republic) is a bit precise. Using (republic) would suggest that the other cases were defined by being something other than a republic, which is a bit of a category error...
State is more accurate and precise. The constitution defines it as State. The Republic of Ireland Act 1948 specifies the use of the term "Republic of Ireland" as a "description" of the State.
"Ireland (state)" can only mean one thing.
I'm just saying that "(state)" is more likely to be accepted than "(country)".
Michael Everson * http://www.evertype.com
Michael Everson wrote:
On 28 Nov 2008, at 00:27, Ray Saintonge wrote:
That's because the nationals of a few small countries perceive a "state" to be a political subdivision.
I don't understand. "Georgia (country)" and "Georgia (state)" would both = Sakartvelo and both contrast with "Georgia (U.S. State)". And the U.S. States are sovereign in a sense (California is more sovereign than County Mayo in Ireland is), though they also are part of a federal structure which is the top-level subdivision in terms of UN recognition.
[[Georgia (state)]] is currently a disambiguation page. California does indeed have greater autonomy than County Mayo; perhaps even Orange County, has more autonomy. I understand that "state" is a technically correct term for an independent country, but in English speaking countries like the United *States* or Australia the more popular notion of political subdivision would tend to prevail.
Would [[Ireland (Republic)]] be sufficient to emphasize that the term "republic" is merely descriptive.
I don't believe it would be preferable. to changee [[Republic of Ireland]] to [[Ireland (republic)]] or to [[Ireland (Republic)]] -- I think you'd get push-back on that. I could ask, but just at the moment that might be poking the hornet's nest.
Whether it's "(Republic)" or "(republic)" should not be a big issue.
Ec
On 28 Nov 2008, at 18:12, Ray Saintonge wrote:
I don't understand. "Georgia (country)" and "Georgia (state)" would both = Sakartvelo and both contrast with "Georgia (U.S. State)". And the U.S. States are sovereign in a sense (California is more sovereign than County Mayo in Ireland is), though they also are part of a federal structure which is the top-level subdivision in terms of UN recognition.
[[Georgia (state)]] is currently a disambiguation page.
I ought to have looked first. *blushes* Of course in the context of Georgia, "Georgia (state)" is indeed ambiguous.
California does indeed have greater autonomy than County Mayo; perhaps even Orange County, has more autonomy. I understand that "state" is a technically correct term for an independent country, but in English speaking countries like the United *States* or Australia the more popular notion of political subdivision would tend to prevail.
Well, in English-speaking countries like Ireland, Canada, or the United Kingdom the proper term is "state". The United Kingdom is a State. Scotland. England, Wales and Northernn Ireland are constituent "countries" within the UK. (See the article on the UK: "The United Kingdom is a unitary state consisting of four countries: England, Northern Ireland, Scotland and Wales.[18]".)
Would [[Ireland (Republic)]] be sufficient to emphasize that the term "republic" is merely descriptive.
I don't believe it would be preferable. to changee [[Republic of Ireland]] to [[Ireland (republic)]] or to [[Ireland (Republic)]] -- I think you'd get push-back on that. I could ask, but just at the moment that might be poking the hornet's nest.
Whether it's "(Republic)" or "(republic)" should not be a big issue.
The point I was trying to make would be that "Ireland (state)" is more likely to be a winning compromise.
Michael Everson * http://www.evertype.com
2008/11/28 Ray Saintonge saintonge@telus.net:
Whether it's "(Republic)" or "(republic)" should not be a big issue.
You must be new here.
- d.
In case anyone is curious, see:
http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=User_talk:Tariqabjotu&diff=255...
and the expected
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:ANI#Ireland_page_moves
Michael Everson * http://www.evertype.com
On Tue, Dec 2, 2008 at 10:59 AM, Michael Everson everson@evertype.comwrote:
In case anyone is curious, see:
http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=User_talk:Tariqabjotu&diff=255...
and the expected
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:ANI#Ireland_page_moves
Have to say that regardless of my feelings on the matter, that was a dubious reading of the 'consensus of the discussion'.
It's all been undone now.
There must be arbitration. I can see no other solution.
Michael Everson * http://www.evertype.com
For good or for ill, I have filed a request for Arbitration.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Requests_for_arbitration#Request_for_...
I hope they take the case.
Michael Everson * http://www.evertype.com
2008/12/2 Sam Blacketer sam.blacketer@googlemail.com:
Have to say that regardless of my feelings on the matter, that was a dubious reading of the 'consensus of the discussion'.
Looking at the amount of verbiage in that discussion, I'm not sure it was possible to gauge anything beyond "my eyes are exhausted" - I tried to gain a sense of the direction of it a few days back and just had to throw up my hands in incomprehension. (This is not a surprise, given what all of our similar debates devolve to...)
Hope.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Requests_for_arbitration/Ireland_arti...
Thanks, all, for your advice.
Michael Everson * http://www.evertype.com
2008/11/28 Ray Saintonge saintonge@telus.net:
While I have no difficulty with [[Ireland (state)]]. I think that reducing [[Iteland]] to a disambiguation page diminishes the term. There is nothing in what your proposal that would adequately deal with pre-1922 Ireland.
Why not? Presumably the various pre-1922 entities under the same name would also be on the disambiguation page - see, for example, http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Germany_(disambiguation)
2008/11/27 David Gerard dgerard@gmail.com:
2008/11/27 Michael Everson everson@evertype.com:
We haven't proposed that. We proposed "Ireland (state)".
That has a slight smell of neologism - is the term used anywhere outside Wikipedia?
Eh? It's a disambiguation note, not a name. (though I'd prefer "country")
We don't require that [[John Smith (politician)]] be called explicitly "John Smith (politician)" on anyone else's paperwork - just that he be a politician and called John Smith...
On 11/27/08, Michael Everson everson@evertype.com wrote:
On 27 Nov 2008, at 01:51, Ray Saintonge wrote:
So Ireland as the Republic or the State or whatever term you choose to use is clearly about what happened in the part that successfully cast off the shackles of occupation since 1922. For certain partisans of the "Republic" to assume a monopoly on the name, Ireland, seems an improper usurpation of the name for personal ends.
We haven't proposed that. We proposed "Ireland (state)".
I come at it from the opposite perspective. To have the article on the 26-county Republic at [[Ireland (state)]] would be to gloss over the fact that it is an incomplete Republic.
On 27 Nov 2008, at 12:12, Sam Blacketer wrote:
We haven't proposed that. We proposed "Ireland (state)".
I come at it from the opposite perspective. To have the article on the 26-county Republic at [[Ireland (state)]] would be to gloss over the fact that it is an incomplete Republic.
What, pray, is "an incomplete Republic"?
Compare the European Union. When new members are added, they are just added to the article. The Irish state exists; if any or all of the other six counties ever join the state, they would be added to the article.
Michael Everson * http://www.evertype.com
2008/11/26 David Gerard dgerard@gmail.com:
2008/11/26 Alex Sawczynec glasscobra15@gmail.com:
So hang on a second here -- can someone please explain what's so horrifyingly inadequate about the current state that things need to be renamed? Unless something is completely disingenuous about the name "Republic of Ireland," I'm not seeing a pressing need for these changes.
Um, I was wondering that too.
Let's assume a reader of Wikipedia isn't going to go through megabytes of talk-page arguments and frankly couldn't give a hoot about editor conduct issues. They just want to look stuff up.
What's in it for the readers?
The argument runs that our status quo is bad because, well, "Republic of Ireland" isn't the name. It means every time the article is looked at by a reader, we have an incorrect name in big bold letters at the top, and one with unpleasant political associations at that.
(I suppose a good analogy would be us still using "Ceylon"...)
What's a one-sentence statement of the compelling reason from each side, stated from a neutral point of view?
Off the top of my head...
[[Ireland]] the island (the status quo):
"There *is* a name for the nation that we can use, and there isn't another name for the island. So we should go with those."
[[Ireland]] being the country:
"Using "Republic of Ireland" is not very common, except in the UK, and it's inappropriate to use it as the title. The country has prominence over the geographical feature for our names; see how we deal with Australia, Madagascar or Sri Lanka."
[[Ireland]] as disambiguation:
"People use "Ireland" in speech to mean either of them, and historical contexts it's very difficult to define what article to use anyway. The two topics are completely confused in common usage; we need primary disambiguation."