I am really having a tough time digesting all of Stevertigo's barbs at Jews diatribes on this list. His obsession with Jews, and those who hate Jews, is the only common link to his contributions to Wikipedia.
Do people here recall his attempts to promote Nazi Holocaust deniers as mainstream academics that deserve respect? His repeated edits which attempt to deny that anti-Semitism exists in many articles? His attempts to claim that anti-Semitism doesn't mean hatred of Jews at all? His constant Jew-baiting, where he lists a handful of people that much of the Jewish community views as anti-Jewish - whom he then presents as heros?
Does anyone here do constant atheist baiting? Christian baiting? Hindu baiting? No. We only see Stevertigo's Jew baiting...and it has been gooing on for quite some time.
Consider his newest post: He finds a handful of people of Jewish descent who say anti-Jewish things, which many Jews find anti-Semitic. Stevertigo quotes them, promotes them for the sole purpose of attacking Jews, yet then claims that he can't be anti-Semitic, because they are Jews, and Jews cannot be anti-Semitic. Is anyone fooled by this childish wordplay?
Stevertigo writes:
But, Dan, its not right to call someone a *racist, if they are not a racist, now is it? Add to this the fact that Jews these days call other Jews anti-Jewish? (anti-Semite) Does this make sense? Can a Black man say : "This man is racist against black people" if the person hes talking about is Black too?
By the way, Stevertigo himself knows that his claims are false. A phenomenom common to many ethnic and national groups is the existence of self-hatred.
"There is little doubt that psychologically, racism is harmful to its victims. The most profound effect associated with situations of extreme degradation (such as is found under slavery or in concentration camps or in racist states like South Africa) is the acceptance by the oppressed group of the dominant group's definition of the situation. This is the phenomenon of self-hatred found, for example, in cases of Jewish anti-Semitism or in the acceptance by blacks of white aesthetic criteria of having straight hair or a light skin. Self-hatred is often accompanied by symptoms of apathy, anxiety, and depression or by forms of self-destructive escapist reactions such as alcoholism or drug addiction or, in extreme cases, by paranoid, schizophrenic or manic depressive psychoses. In such situations of extreme degradation then, the oppressed group frequently reacts in an 'intropunitive' fashion; that is, it turns its frustrations inwardly against the self or the 'in' group at large." (Source: Racism And Its Effects, Shreya Khatau)
Examples of people who are sometimes considered Jewish anti-Semites are Noam Chomsky and Israel Shahak. Referring to works by Israel Shahak and others, The ADL's report on The Talmud and Anti-Semitism states "In distorting the normative meaning of rabbinic texts, anti-Talmud writers frequently remove passages from their textual and historical context....Those who attack the Talmud frequently cit ancient rabbinic sources without noting subsequent developments in Jewish thought....Are the polemicists Anti-Semites? This is a charged term that should not be used lightly, but the answer, by and large, is yes. Now and then a polemicist of this type may have been bon Jewish, but their systematic distortion of the ancient texts, always in the direction of portrarying Judaism negatively, their lack of interest in good-faith efforts to understand contemporary Judaism from contemporary Jews, and their dimissal of any voices opposing their own, suggests that their goal in reading ancient rabbinic literature is to produce the Frankenstein version of Judaism that they invariable claim to have uncovered."
Chomsky and Shahak, not surprisingly, are about the only people of Jewish descent that Stevertigo agrees with. What conclusion can one draw from this?
What does it mean then to be called an anti-Semite? It means nothing... Its slander. Propaganda of insults. Thats all.
No, Stevertigo, the term is merely used to accurately describe you.
RK
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RK:I am really having a tough time digesting all of Stevertigo's barbs at Jews diatribes on this list. His obsession with Jews, and those who hate Jews, is the only common link to his contributions to Wikipedia.
Ah. So in other words "I didnt bother to actually read what Steve wrote, but I's sure it was Jew bashing from that anti-Semite." Sorry Robert, Ive been cluing people into how the term anti-Semite is commonly used to slander people who speak the truth about Israeli atrocities in the name of Yahave. Next question.
RK: Do people here recall his attempts to promote Nazi Holocaust deniers as mainstream academics that deserve respect? His repeated edits which attempt to deny that anti-Semitism exists in many articles? His attempts to claim that anti-Semitism doesn't mean hatred of Jews at all? His constant Jew-baiting, where he lists a handful of people that much of the Jewish community views as anti-Jewish - whom he then presents as heros?
None of this is true, of course. I did write an essay on David Irving which essentially said 'for all of his Holocaust denials, at least he never killed anyone, which is more than can be said for that IDF bulldozer driver that murdered Rachel Corrie. Read your Ten Commandments baby...
RK: Does anyone here do constant atheist baiting? Christian baiting? Hindu baiting? No. We only see Stevertigo's Jew baiting...and it has been gooing on for quite some time.
I still dont understand the term "Jew baiting". It sounds like something southern Aryan racists might say... of course, Jewish American Zionists, according to their literature dont consider racist Jew-hating White Supremacists as "anti-Semitic" because many are close with Christian Zionists... and its the liberal who considers Palestinians as actual human beings who is the "real anti-Semite" Jew hater. ( http://www.zmag.org/chomsky/ni/ni-c10-s20.html )
RK:Consider his newest post: He finds a handful of people of Jewish descent who say anti-Jewish things, which many Jews find anti-Semitic. Stevertigo quotes them, promotes them for the sole purpose of attacking Jews, yet then claims that he can't be anti-Semitic, because they are Jews, and Jews cannot be anti-Semitic. Is anyone fooled by this childish wordplay?
No. Noone is fooled by your childish wordplay. They all actually read the last posts, (tracing through the header-changes) and they know that you obviously didnt.
RK:By the way, Stevertigo himself knows that his claims are false. A phenomenom common to many ethnic and >national groups is the
existence of self-hatred. Yes, and this would explain your behaviour, Roberticus.. I submit these quotes from ( http://www.jewishtribalreview.org/19antis1.htm ) "The assumption of an eternal anti-Semitism ... has been adapted by a great many unbiased historians and by even a greater number of Jews. It is this odd coincidence which makes the theory so very dangerous and confusing. Its escapist basis is in both instances the same; just as anti-Semites understandably desire to escape responsibility for their deeds, so Jews, attacked and on the defensive, even more understandably, do not wish to under any circumstances discuss their share of responsibility." Hannah Arendt, Origins, p. 7 (Jewish historian) "For some Jews and perhaps some of the Jewish leadership, the fear is that if anti-Semitism completely disappears then the Jewish community might erode or dissolve." Stanley Rothman, (in STALLSWORTH, p. 67)
RK:Examples of people who are sometimes considered Jewish anti-Semites are Noam Chomsky and Israel Shahak. Referring to works by
Israel Shahak and others, The ADL's >report on
The Talmud and Anti-Semitism states "In distorting the normative meaning of rabbinic texts, anti-Talmud writers frequently remove passages from their textual and historical context....Those who attack the Talmud frequently cit ancient rabbinic sources without noting subsequent developments in Jewish thought....Are the polemicists Anti-Semites? This is a charged term that should not be used lightly, but the answer, by and large, is yes. Now and then a polemicist of this type may have been bon Jewish, but their systematic distortion of the ancient texts, always in the direction of portrarying Judaism negatively, their lack of interest in good-faith efforts to understand contemporary Judaism from contemporary Jews, and their dimissal of any voices opposing their own, suggests that their goal in reading ancient rabbinic literature is to produce the Frankenstein version of Judaism that they invariable claim to have uncovered."
Rubbish. Utter rubbish. You refer to The ADL as an unbiased source??? "one of the main pillars" of Israeli propaganda in the U.S., as the Israeli press casually describes it." (Neccessary Illusions) Tell me, what do you think about what Dennis Bernstien says: "Everyone else is terrified. The only ones who begin to open their mouths are the Jews in this country. You know, as a kid, I sent money to plant trees in Israel. But now we are horrified by a government representing a country that we grew up loving and cherishing. Israel's defenders have a special vengeance for Jews who don't fall in line behind Sharon's scorched-earth policy because they give the lie to the charge that Israel's critics are simply anti-Semite." ( http://news.independent.co.uk/world/americas/story.jsp?dir=7&story=31323... st=3&printable=1 )
RK:Chomsky and Shahak, not surprisingly, are about the only
people of Jewish descent that Stevertigo agrees with. What conclusion can one draw from this?
No they are not. Im sure I agree with you on some issues. And now you admit: your criteria for *who is anti-Semitic is directly linked to *which Jews they do or do not agree with. I see now. Thank you for clarifying, Robert.
RK:No, Stevertigo, the term is merely used to accurately describe you.
Of course!! I agree!! It's a "term merely used" by racist Jewish bigots to slander critical thinking people like me. Thank you and God bless. :) -SV Ps. I should add that Its Hanlon's Razor that allows me to respond in kind to you RK, otherwise the Murphy's Law of: "never argue with a fool" would forbid me.
This exchange really does not belong on the mailing list.
You are right. I feel extremely insulted when people slander me as a racist, because its a lie. I have no choice but to fight it. These are issues of too much passion to deal with on a mailing list. And they were a completely unsucessful in my original intent to remove the AKFD article. I had hoped making an analogy of discrimination would work; to make people see that all similar articles should be removed. But no-one even understood the point. I apologize to all parties involved, and will quit Wikipedia immediately. Ive been online too damn much these days anyway. -SV
The AKFD article was removed. As to the slogans, folks seem to see some value in them.
Fred
From: "Stevertigo" stevertigo@attbi.com Reply-To: wikien-l@wikipedia.org Date: Thu, 20 Mar 2003 04:01:16 -0800 To: wikien-l@wikipedia.org Subject: [WikiEN-l] stevertigo
This exchange really does not belong on the mailing list.
You are right. I feel extremely insulted when people slander me as a racist, because its a lie. I have no choice but to fight it. These are issues of too much passion to deal with on a mailing list. And they were a completely unsucessful in my original intent to remove the AKFD article. I had hoped making an analogy of discrimination would work; to make people see that all similar articles should be removed. But no-one even understood the point. I apologize to all parties involved, and will quit Wikipedia immediately. Ive been online too damn much these days anyway. -SV
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