But separatist action just doesn't seem to me like a wiki-friendly
concept. That said, I don't have any problem with WikiChix or its
mailing list, especially now that the latter is no longer hosted by
the WMF.
--Ryan
On 12/6/06, Phil Sandifer <Snowspinner(a)gmail.com> wrote:
On Dec 6, 2006, at 12:25 AM, Steve Bennett wrote:
On 12/5/06, Alphax (Wikipedia email)
<alphasigmax(a)gmail.com> wrote:
Personally, like others, I'm slightly saddened that there is a need
for this. However, there *being* a need for it, satisfying that need
is the right thing to do. Hopefully one day the list will disband
from
lack of use.
... whoa. Care to rephrase that?
Hopefully one day the women in the Wikipedia community will no longer
feel threatened on the main list, and will thus not need their own
list. That is, if their list is a cure, I hope the ailment goes away.
Well put. Allow me to briefly put my gender privilege to good use and
to engage in some of the flaming that Tim Starling has observed that
I, as a male, am apparently more likely to enjoy.
I have never been so disgusted with this community as I am right now,
and particularly with Greg and The Cunctator, both users I have in
the past had tremendous respect for. Greg's public shunning of the
idea of gendered discussion and The Cunctator's stunt of subscribing
to the list so he could play martyr were bald-faced power moves that
had no content other than sending a clear message to female
contributors that they'd better not get out of line. They were
shameful power plays. And if anyone fails to understand why that is,
I can only say that you are why this list needs to exist, and why it
needs to be female-only.
We do not get to define the terms of the gender debate. We do not get
to insist that we have a gender-neutral space, or a sufficiently
gender-neutral space that it is clear that any discussion of gender
can happen publicly. We, in short, do not get to dictate to women how
they ought to feel about the systemic bias we've set up.
Is it useful to completely exclude us from the conversation? Probably
not, but that doesn't seem to be what's happening. What's happening
is that there's a desire on the part of some women to be able to have
a conversation amongst the people who get to define the problem,
instead of amongst the people who don't. When the problem is defined,
some aspects of the solution will probably have to include men. But
men don't get to define sexism. You can't both cause the problem and
define it for the people you're affecting.
Why is the list not open to men? Because there are men like The
Cunctator and Greg, who are happy to declare that they know how
discrimination should be talked about, and anybody who feels
uncomfortable talking to them can go to hell. (One wonders, of
course, why anyone in their right mind would feel comfortable talking
to them after that.) And men who will deny the very existence and
possibility of the systemic bias every time it comes down, struggling
mightily to shut down the discussion. Because there are complaints,
frustrations, and problems that people want to express without having
a chorus of men commenting on it and denying it. Because one of the
first steps in healing a community with broken gender relations is to
give women (it is, sadly, always women) a forum where they can
express things and get a response of "God, yes, I know what you mean.
I thought it was just me!" instead of some form of "I don't think
that's valid."
As for the Wiki Chix (A great name, by the way), sorry I haven't been
more active in this discussion (either this one or the systemic bias
one), and sorry the situation is such that the separatist move is
necessary. If there's anything I can do to help the cause, let me
know. And if there's nothing whatsoever I can do to help the cause,
well, good luck.
Best,
Phil Sandifer
sandifer(a)english.ufl.edu
You are standing in an open field west of a white house, with a
boarded front door. There is a small mailbox here.
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