On Dec 12, 2007 1:14 AM, jayjg jayjg99@gmail.com wrote:
On Dec 11, 2007 2:18 PM, Relata Refero refero.relata@gmail.com wrote:
On Dec 12, 2007 12:21 AM, jayjg jayjg99@gmail.com wrote:
On Dec 11, 2007 1:08 PM, Andrew Gray shimgray@gmail.com wrote:
On 11/12/2007, jayjg jayjg99@gmail.com wrote:
On Dec 11, 2007 11:58 AM, Andrew Gray andrew.gray@dunelm.org.uk wrote:
On 11/12/2007, jayjg jayjg99@gmail.com wrote:
> > Experience says "no", I am afraid. We will discuss this topic, > > repeated ad nauseum and ad hominem by The Side Of Justice And Truth > > And Light, and God help you if you dare suggest we've heard enough. > > Actually, Andrew, I don't think the discussion is over until you've > told the victims of harassment to leave Wikipedia for the good of > Wikipedia. At that point the thread sinks so low that nothing can > redeem it.
"God help you if you dare suggest we've heard enough", I said, and by golly here it comes.
But I suppose it's too much to ask you don't put words in my mouth.
"Please leave. All of you. The project is more important than your pride, and you are dragging it down; this situation is never going to improve unless someone walks away." Andrew Gray, Wed Aug 1 14:41:22 UTC 2007 http://lists.wikimedia.org/pipermail/wikien-l/2007-August/078379.html
"Please. For the good of the project, turn around and walk away." Andrew Gray, Thu Aug 2 02:35:38 UTC 2007 http://lists.wikimedia.org/pipermail/wikien-l/2007-August/078422.html
Ah, yes, that last one...
"Like I said originally, this is not personal; this is not because I dislike any of the participants ... I feel a heel saying it. I wish the situation wasn't where it's got to."
"This whole thing is ballooning bigger and bigger as time goes on; what you are doing is harming the project, and if it goes on much further the incremental damage will be that much worse."
It doesn't seem to have changed much.
Right, I didn't put words in your mouth after all, as you claimed, and you're still posting the same nonsense. Frankly, given your attitude, Wikipedia would be better off without you; nothing personal, and I wish it weren't so, but it's clear you should just leave.
Any progress on the pausing-to-see-if-your-next-email-is helpful front, Jay? Or the not-replying-unless-its-ontopic front? Or the raising-the-level-of-discourse-on-this-list front? No?
I've successfully managed all of those things; you, unfortunately, have failed on all those fronts.
Where have you raised the level of discourse? How have your recent emails, all of which focus on the perceived misdeeds of individuals on this list rather than on the actual problems we are attempting to solve, stayed on-topic (see the subject line) or been helpful at all? Please shape up. I'll pass over the childish "Not me, but you!" stuff, shall I? You probably regret it. Pausing before replying helps.
I believe this thread started going awry when somebody hijacked it a couple of days ago to make false claims about the cyberstalking list that have already been repeatedly refuted. Now, I wonder who that might be? Hmm: http://lists.wikimedia.org/pipermail/wikien-l/2007-December/087150.html
I quote that email from me in its entirety here, "The cyberstalking list saw the !! email, which contained a vast error of judgment, namely the implication that an obvious returning account was a disruptive returning account; that error of judgment was unchecked, in that nobody appeared to correct it prior to an (undiscussed on-list) block; the list appears to contain several respected editors."
What precisely has been 'refuted'? Or is pushing the "everyone who disagrees with me is doing so only because they just don't listen, and all things have been satisfactorily explained, it was only 75 minutes after all, theyre all such whingers" meme so important that barefaced misdirection of this sort (not just 'refuted', but 'repeatedly') is now permissible?
Again, caricaturing opposing viewpoints is never helpful.
I haven't caricatured anyone, you've done a great job all on your own.
Really? All I've said is that your misdirection is extremely unhelpful. For an example, see above. That's not a caricature, that's a very lifelike photograph.
RR