I see a structure--a cellular structure of groups that only sometimes
interact. If the group is reasonably small, under 50 or so--of whom in
general 5 to 10 will actually be active, and if the interfaces between
the groups are kept limited and channelized, the organization can
continue.
The cells I have in mind are he Wikiprojects. Many of them work
really well to maintain order in their work (I'm thinking particularly
of Chemistry) and are reasonably hospitable to adequately informed
newcomers. But they work only incidentally with the other groups. they
appear in the general forums when something of critical concern to
them appears, but otherwise they leave the rest of the wiki alone.
Look at most of the admin candidates--they have each of them
contributed substantially only within a scope of a few pages. When the
become admins, they do a little general activity, but most remain
fairly limited even in that. They are like the country members, who
come to the capitol only on special occasion.
On 6/22/07, Marc Riddell <michaeldavid86(a)comcast.net> wrote:
Marc Riddell wrote:
>
>>> This appears to be especially true when it comes to discussing the
>>> leadership and structure vacuums within Wikipedia. It is easy to simply not
>>> respond on a List such as this, but how would you react if asked about this
>>> in person, face to face?
>>>
>>>
> on 6/19/07 7:48 PM, Ray Saintonge at saintonge(a)telus.net wrote:
>
>> What leadership structure? Sometimes I believe that the leadership is
>> only suitable for drawing and quartering. I often have the impression
>> that we live in a culture of distrust, and that this infects much of our
>> activity, whether on Wikipedia or esewhere.
>>
Marc Riddell wrote:
> What leadership structure? Precisely. This is
what I have been trying to
> drive home for some time now.
>
> A community without strong, definable leadership produces a culture of
> "everyone for themselves". This is true whether in Wikipedia or the world
at
> large. It becomes the very familiar "survival of the fittest". And
"who can
> you trust?" becomes the pervading question.
on 6/21/07 4:55 PM, Ray Saintonge at saintonge(a)telus.net wrote:
It either produces a culture of
everyone-for-himself, or it exploits
such a culture that was already there. I do get the impression over the
months that you are somewhat more structured in your outlook on these
points than I,
Not "structure" in the classic stone and concrete sense; but, rather, a
structure originally and specifically designed and created to suit the
spirit of the Project.
but there is still plenty of room for common
ground.
Common ground? Absolutely! Because I believe we would be (and are) both
working toward a common end.
> 1. There needs to be a "rules
committee" to thread its way through the
> swamp of rules creep. I am not committed to that name; if there is a
> better name that beter reflects reality that's great. Let's just
> consider "rules committee" to be a provisional discussion title. A
> rules committee would make rules itself. It could synthesize a proposed
> wording from all the variations that might be offered, present that to
> the relevant community for adoption or rejection, and monitor the
> acceptance process.. This is a particularly wide mandate. One of the
> earliest issues that it would need to consider would be the extent of
> its own mandate, and a general review of the rule making process. Key
> to its duties would be to insure that seemingly small and unnoticed
> changes to the rules do not unexpectedly become a problem long after
> they are made. It could begin to apply a form of stable versioning to
> policy.
> 2. The presence of a firwall between
the activities of the Foundation
> and of each of its projects needs to be made clear. It is impossible to
> guarantee that all activities on all projects will be legal. This is
> not said to promote illegality. In a context of multiple languages and
> uncertain legal interpretations on an international scale there will
> always be doubts. Unduly rigid views of the law stifle creativity;
> unduly flexible views breed disrespect. At the same time two distinct
> projects can arrive at a different analysis of the same problem..
> Anyone who tries to choose which is correct falls into the same trap.
> With a firewall the Foundation would abjure the right to _decide_ what
> is legal in any project. It's action on content would be strictly in
> accordance with the requirements of the law. If it receives a proper
> takedown order it takes things down. Otherwise it knows nothing about
> it. To some, this may seem maddeningly literal, but that's what makes
> firewalls work. What a project does about the same material is its own
> business, but it is entirely within its rights to have rules that are
> stricter than what the law may allow.
> 3. With project autonomy each project
has the right to be run by a gang
> of absolute idiots, but one should not assume that another project will
> submit itself to the same brand of idiocy. There can be Meta level
> rules, but these need to be kept to a minimum. The concept of NPOV is a
> good meta level rule, as is a consistent use of Wiki markup. A rules
> committee could very well propose the same policy for two or more
> projects, but there is no requirement that they would all need to adopt
> that proposal.
Thank you. This is exactly the type of
thinking I have been trying to
encourage the Community to engage in.
But, before any real, worthwhile planning takes place there needs to be an
agreement, beyond just you and me, that such planning is needed. It is going
to take you, and others with your degree of credibility in this Project, to
encourage and fuel the debate.
I feel like a meteorologist trying to warn the citizenry of an impending
hurricane; but finding the majority of these citizens are looking out of the
windows of their own secure structures and saying, "Huh, the sky looks clear
to me".
>> How do you convincingly say
>> "Trust me" to someone when they've heard it so often before. What
we are
>> getting now in this paradigm shift of communications is the first broad
>> generation of disbelief
> One point remains: When you hear someone say, "Trust me," it triggers a
> flight response. Given that premise, one can hardly make the same request.
As to the issue of trust: To me the phrase
"I trust you" is just the
beginning of a complete sentence. What is really being said is "I trust you
not to harm me". Likewise, "Trust me" is really "Trust me not to harm
you".
That's powerful! But for you to have this power, I must first grant it to
you.
But in the context and medium we are engaged in here, what power would I
really have, and what harm could I possibly do you? I encourage everyone
working in this Project to stop and really think about this. One of the
greatest things we can all take away from having been a part of this
Project, is the learning and experience of having worked constructively with
another person.
Marc Riddell
--
"Come to the edge. We might fall! Come to the edge. It's too high!
COME! TO! THE! EDGE!!
So they came and he pushed -- and they flew."
Guillaume Apollinaire
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