Hi everyone,
We need your help. We have a number of reports on the various village
pumps, helpdesks, Twitter, and such that IE8 users are experiencing
crashes merely by visiting our site. Here's the bug report:
https://bugzilla.wikimedia.org/show_bug.cgi?id=31424
Given the frequency and diversity of reports, there is almost
certainly something to this, even though we don't yet have a solid
repro case that a developer can actually use to fix this.
Here's what we need. If you are actually seeing crashes, we would
love to know exact browser version (e.g. IE 8.0.7601.17514), exact
operating system version, all plugins installed and their exact
versions, and how much RAM your machine has. Please report your
findings either in the bug report above, or if you're more comfortable
on-wiki, then here:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Village_pump_%28technical%29#If_you_….
Thanks!
Rob
One of my favorite early Wikipedia articles (nerdy as that is) was a
page called "Slashdot trolling phenomena" which described all the most
common styles of Slashdot trolls. Of course, it was later nuked as
original research with insufficient sourcing, and is preserved only in
user-space:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User:Kadin2048/Slashdot_Trolling_Phenomena
I thought about this page today because of Slashdot's story about
Steve Jobs' early death:
http://apple.slashdot.org/story/11/10/06/000211/steve-jobs-dead-at-56
The story text is, of course, a verbatim copy of the original Slashdot
troll about Stephen King's death. You can see it more closely by
comparing the original submission:
http://apple.slashdot.org/submission/1808868/sad-news--steve-jobs-dead-at-56
"I just heard some sad news on talk radio — Apple cofounder Steve Jobs
was found dead in his Cupertino home this morning. There weren't any
more details. I'm sure everyone in the Slashdot community will miss
him — even if you didn't enjoy his work, there's no denying his
contributions to popular culture. Truly an American icon."
vs.
"I just heard some sad news on talk radio - Horror/Sci Fi writer
Stephen King was found dead in his Maine home this morning. There
weren't any more details. I'm sure everyone in the Slashdot community
will miss him - even if you didn't enjoy his work, there's no denying
his contributions to popular culture. Truly an American icon."
I doubt that the responsible Slashdot editor was aware that they were
falling for a troll. Is there a lesson here somewhere? If so, it's
perhaps that documentation of subcultures in Wikipedia is very much
worth doing.
(And, RIP Steve.)
Erik
There are reams of postings on this in the Foundation mailing list.
foundation-l mailing list
foundation-l(a)lists.wikimedia.org
https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-l
May I suggest that anyone who wants to follow this one signs up to
Foundation, if only for the current discussion? I'm not trying to squash
discussion here, but if people do discuss it here without reading the posts
by the Italians, by Sue and many others on Foundation then I suspect a fair
amount will be repetition and explanation of what has been said on
Foundation.
WereSpielChequers
On 5 October 2011 18:48, Rob Schnautz <bobthewikipedian(a)gmail.com> wrote:
> Woah. I just checked it.wikipedia.org because it sounded like a
> hoax...it's
> real. Does the law apply to website providers or to those who contribute to
> the website? If it's the former, you're right; Wikipedia is in Florida. But
> if it's the latter, then Wikipedia is most certainly affected by the law.
>
> Unfortunate indeed.
>
> Bob
>
> On Wed, Oct 5, 2011 at 7:40 AM, Daniel R. Tobias <dan(a)tobias.name> wrote:
>
> > There have been a bunch of items in my Twitter feed about how the
> > Italian Wikipedia has shut down in response to a proposed repressive
> > law regarding mandatory takedowns of allegedly defamatory online
> > material in Italy. I have some problems with such a move, as it sets
> > a precedent of having a particular language edition of Wikipedia tied
> > to an uncomfortable degree with the politics of one country just
> > because that's the primary place the language is spoken. It's always
> > been true that the separate editions of Wikipedia are by language,
> > not country. The Chinese Wikipedia keeps operating despite the
> > repressive censorship of China, and if that country chooses to block
> > it, that's their problem. English Wikipedia doesn't belong to
> > England, or America, or any other English-speaking country, though
> > the fact that the primary servers are in the USA does force it to
> > comply to U.S. law.
> >
> > Unless there are servers in Italy, the Italian Wikipedia isn't
> > compelled to follow any Italian law, though there could be
> > consequences for any Italy-based participants if they don't,
> > including the possibility of individuals there being held responsible
> > for what they write or fail to take down, or possible mandatory
> > blockage of the site in that country if they choose to go the "Great
> > Firewall" route.
> >
> > I remember the German Wikipedia being affected at one point by a
> > court injunction, but that only shut down a redirected .de domain,
> > not the site itself as a subdomain of US-registered wikipedia.org.
> >
> >
> > --
> > == Dan ==
> > Dan's Mail Format Site: http://mailformat.dan.info/
> > Dan's Web Tips: http://webtips.dan.info/
> > Dan's Domain Site: http://domains.dan.info/
> >
> >
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > WikiEN-l mailing list
> > WikiEN-l(a)lists.wikimedia.org
> > To unsubscribe from this mailing list, visit:
> > https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikien-l
> >
> _______________________________________________
> WikiEN-l mailing list
> WikiEN-l(a)lists.wikimedia.org
> To unsubscribe from this mailing list, visit:
> https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikien-l
>
On Tue, Oct 4, 2011 at 11:04, Scott MacDonald
<doc.wikipedia(a)ntlworld.com> wrote:
> Unfortunately, I think this is what happens when kewl teenagers who like
> memes started (apparently) by star-trek, meet adults who value actual
> communication in the language of Shakespeare.
>
Oh, please. I'd call you a flap-mouthed miscreant, but instead I shall
risk accusations of incivility and just facepalm quietly to myself.
--
Tom Morris
<http://tommorris.org/>
On Wed, Oct 5, 2011 at 12:50 AM, Scott MacDonald
<doc.wikipedia(a)ntlworld.com> wrote:
>
>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: wikien-l-bounces(a)lists.wikimedia.org [mailto:wikien-l-
>> bounces(a)lists.wikimedia.org] On Behalf Of Ray Saintonge
>> Sent: 04 October 2011 21:08
>> To: English Wikipedia
>> Subject: Re: [WikiEN-l] Facepalm?
>>
>> On 10/04/11 3:51 AM, Tom Morris wrote:
>> > On Tue, Oct 4, 2011 at 11:04, Scott MacDonald
>> > <doc.wikipedia(a)ntlworld.com> wrote:
>> >> Unfortunately, I think this is what happens when kewl teenagers who
>> like
>> >> memes started (apparently) by star-trek, meet adults who value actual
>> >> communication in the language of Shakespeare.
>> > Oh, please. I'd call you a flap-mouthed miscreant, but instead I shall
>> > risk accusations of incivility and just facepalm quietly to myself.
>> >
>>
>> Pedantry is no more communicative than the memes of pop culture.
>>
>> Ec
>>
>
> To be pedantic, I think you mean verbosity.
What part of "Ten foot pole, not touching." don't you understand.
Would that work better?
--
--
Jussi-Ville Heiskanen, ~ [[User:Cimon Avaro]]
If ArbCom would be damaged by people opening [[WP:DICK]] labeling cases, it
certainly wouldn't be helped by people opening facepalming cases.
Be it namecalling or implication of rude gestures, these are both civil
issues and both need attention.
At the same time, I feel the {{facepalm}} template can be (as I often see)
used effectively without directing it at another individual, usually as in
"oh I can't believe I just said/did that".
And re: the Star Trek stuff, I think the most credit we can give Star Trek
(if even this) is coining the phrase (if they in fact did). It's found
throughout common American culture predating Star Trek.
Bob
On Tue, Oct 4, 2011 at 12:42 PM, Scott MacDonald <doc.wikipedia(a)ntlworld.com
> wrote:
>
>
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: wikien-l-bounces(a)lists.wikimedia.org [mailto:wikien-l-
> > bounces(a)lists.wikimedia.org] On Behalf Of Risker
> > Sent: 04 October 2011 18:25
> > To: English Wikipedia
> > Subject: Re: [WikiEN-l] Facepalm?
> >
> >
> > So perhaps a better focus of discussion would be "how to deal with
> > editors
> > who are unable to or unwilling to understand project guidelines and
> > policies". It seems that the primary use of this template is by editors
> > expressing frustration at the inability, despite their best efforts, to
> > address this issue.
> >
> > Risker/Anne
>
> But 'facepalming' them in (even legitimate) frustration at their evident
> obtuseness is, like calling someone a WP:DICK, unlikely to improve their
> behaviour, whilst it encourages people to use the same facepalm in
> situations where the recipient is a good faith editor, and the inference
> that they are being obtuse is unhelpful and uncivil/inflammatory.
>
> Anyway, templates are always poor substitutes for actual communication,
> particularly in situations where tempers are apt to fray, and
> miscommunications are more than likely.
>
> Scott
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> WikiEN-l mailing list
> WikiEN-l(a)lists.wikimedia.org
> To unsubscribe from this mailing list, visit:
> https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikien-l
>
On Tue, Oct 4, 2011 at 11:04 AM, Scott MacDonald
<doc.wikipedia(a)ntlworld.com> wrote:
> Unfortunately, I think this is what happens when kewl teenagers who like
> memes started (apparently) by star-trek, meet adults who value actual
> communication in the language of Shakespeare.
FWIW, I've known the face-palm gesture for ages, and never knew it was
in any way related to Star Trek. I suspect our article on the topic
may be slightly over-egging things there. I've used and seen the
facepalm gesture used more like the "doh!" gesture from The Simpsons.
Is it lacking in civility to go "DOH!" when you get something wrong?
Or is it only when you use such terms for what someone else says. I've
also mentally seen someone else trip up and fall flat on their face
over something (metaphorically speaking) and thought to myself "that's
a facepalm moment". But only when something is so wrong it is funny,
if you get my drift.
Carcharoth
On 3 October 2011 11:02, Scott MacDonald <doc.wikipedia(a)ntlworld.com> wrote:
> Granted, removing uncivil templates won't magically increase patient and
> constructive discussion, but I do suspect we'd still nevertheless delete
> {{jackass}} or {{moron}}. If people are going to mock others, we shouldn't
> be giving them shortcuts to do so. The existence of the template serves to
> legitimise such dismissive discourse.
> Thoughts?
Sounds reasonable on civility grounds. You could probably get a TFD to fly.
- d.
On 3 October 2011 11:02, Scott MacDonald <doc.wikipedia(a)ntlworld.com> wrote:
> According to our article [[Facepalm]], this is a startrek internet meme
> indicating "an expression of embarrassment, frustration, disbelief,
> disgust,
> shame or general woe. It often expresses mockery or disbelief of perceived
> idiocy."
>
> Well, that must be right.
>
> Given that, I am wondering why we tolerate a template {{facepalm}}
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Template:Facepalm
>
> This does nothing to foster civil discourse among Wikipedians. I've just
> looked through how it is being used, and whilst I do see the occasional use
> in self-deprecation, generally it is used as a shorthand put-down:
> implicitly calling your correspondent an idiot, and his latest contribution
> self-evidently moronic.
>
> Granted, removing uncivil templates won't magically increase patient and
> constructive discussion, but I do suspect we'd still nevertheless delete
> {{jackass}} or {{moron}}. If people are going to mock others, we shouldn't
> be giving them shortcuts to do so. The existence of the template serves to
> legitimise such dismissive discourse.
>
>
> Thoughts?
>
{{facepalm}} (sorry... couldn't resist ;))
I bet any TFD goes off the rails...
On the one hand the template does have somewhat negative connotations. On
the other hand it always stuck me as a slightly less confrontational way of
saying "that's stupid". *shrug*
Tom
Good day Wikipedians,
I have of late got into a football management computer game. Don't
panic, I will be relating this post to Wikipedia, hang on. I'm really
enjoying the game. To such an extent that I've actually started to
follow football. I've never particularly liked football. I only
started playing the computer game cos there was a free demo. Now I
like the computer game so much I'm following football in the real
world.
After quite a few hours of playing it struck me that all I was really
doing most of the time was evaluating numbers: player abilities rated
out of 5, 10 or 20 depending on the stat in question. Numbers of
goals. Numbered position in league. Tier of football I'm playing in.
I don't know why this should be so compelling. Watching numbers
change. But the game is incredibly successful (some editions have
broken records for fastest selling computer game according to our
articles).
The numbers are clearly giving us players an emotional response. They engage.
Last year, during the Strategy process and before I started playing
this game, I proposed that what Wikipedia needed was "more rewards"
for editors. I proposed a few things. In the end we got Wiki-love,
which I support and like, but they isn't really like what I proposed
at Strategy. To be honest I can barely remember what it was I proposed
back then...
I still think we could do with more rewards and maybe this damned game
has given me an answer.
More editor stats.
All of us who have been around for some time know that edit counts are
not very reliable indicators of effort. Nevertheless we still do keep
a public record of editors with high counts. I think there's a reason
for that. I think it's because we still, despite protestations, know
that an edit count does tell us *something* about a Wikipedian. Even
if it's just "(s)he edits a lot".
I believe I'm right in saying that the Foundation is in the process of
setting up something like Toolserver. I suggest we plan to put it to
work. I suggest we expand greatly the stats we keep on individual
editors and form league tables from them. I believe that aiming for a
place in a table will motivate people. I realise that a) this is
unproven and b) there will be objections, particularly regarding
'gaming the system and 'unintended consequences' but perhaps we can
discuss those and mitigate them (more later).
New Stats that could be placed in league tables could include:
* Length of service (difference in days between first edit and last)
* Number of consecutive days/months/weeks where 5 or more edits have
been made (or 50 edits, or a hundred): in short there could be quite a
number of these tables that relate to consistency and number of edits
all of which, I feel, might spur people on to keep contributing.
* Most characters/bytes added (without being removed)
* Most blocks for admins
* Most welcomes, barn stars awarded
* Most reverts / undos
* Average reader-rating of articles user has edited at least ten times
You could also have these as percentage of number of edits and rank
for those too, eg welcomes, blocks or reverts as a percentage of total
edits, (with a minimum number of edits to qualify for inclusion on the
table).
Now, it could be (WILL be!) that someone decides "I'm going for the
revert league title" and starts doing things we wouldn't ideally like
(to put it mildly). However their presence at the head of the league,
I feel, will actually subject their edits to greater scrutiny. People
will look at their contributions and it may well result in needed
censure, showing their activity to be undesirable and action could be
taken accordingly. Also, you may have people in the top table who
aren't even *trying* and their presence at or near the top might cause
some examination of their contribs.
Perhaps you can think of some league tables that would really push
desirable behaviours at minimal risk of negative ones?
If you don't like this idea I'd like to hear the concerns, HOWEVER! I
would also like you to just entertain the idea and - even if you're
against - think of some individual editor stats that could be tracked
you think *may* provide useful feedback, even if you ultimately don't
think we *should*.
So: I propose we greatly increase feedback on user performance to
drive people on. Support editor stats today.
User:Bodnotbod