On Tue, Oct 4, 2011 at 11:04 AM, Scott MacDonald doc.wikipedia@ntlworld.com wrote:
Unfortunately, I think this is what happens when kewl teenagers who like memes started (apparently) by star-trek, meet adults who value actual communication in the language of Shakespeare.
FWIW, I've known the face-palm gesture for ages, and never knew it was in any way related to Star Trek. I suspect our article on the topic may be slightly over-egging things there. I've used and seen the facepalm gesture used more like the "doh!" gesture from The Simpsons. Is it lacking in civility to go "DOH!" when you get something wrong? Or is it only when you use such terms for what someone else says. I've also mentally seen someone else trip up and fall flat on their face over something (metaphorically speaking) and thought to myself "that's a facepalm moment". But only when something is so wrong it is funny, if you get my drift.
Carcharoth
On Tue, Oct 4, 2011 at 12:27 PM, Carcharoth carcharothwp@googlemail.comwrote:
FWIW, I've known the face-palm gesture for ages, and never knew it was in any way related to Star Trek. I suspect our article on the topic may be slightly over-egging things there. I've used and seen the facepalm gesture used more like the "doh!"
..
Carcharoth
That's my word. I would think, that this gesture : http://knowyourmeme.com/system/icons/554/original/facepalm.jpg?1248715065 would be generally understandable across the world (so it had to be understandable without the StarTrack, without its contribution)
At least myself, I would not know that this gesture is supposedly originating from StarTrack and I would expect it is just normal gesture, I would understand it normally (being in another continent and in community using different language from english). And I also believe, that both the possibilities (1 lifting up the palm to the face; 2 lowering ones face to the palm) might coexist alongside themselves, with just the meaning little bit shifted.
I just think of girls I know, - blushing, just turning red for some awkward reason, lowering their heads in just reminiscence of the above gesture - the second case. So lowering ones head in facepalm is more like ones escape from my own embarrassment, while lifting rather the palm to ones tired head is more like escape from others in disbelief. That's how I would read the gesture intuitively.
The template does not differentiate between those two.
And I saw it being applied in both of the circumstances. Sometimes I felt it, to be surprisingly judgmental. I saw some users in good standing using it as shortcut for something, I would decipher as: "Its so stupid/naive argument, that I am not going to answer any more then this. Please stop here"
Petr (a.k.a. Reo On)
Like many others, I've seen the facepalm used to represent a fairly broad spectrum of emotions, both directed at one's own actions and that of others. It's certainly been around since well before Star Trek, since I remember it being used before that show was on TV, and in fact I wouldn't be surprised if William Shatner brought it with him as part of his Canadian heritage; it's endemic here, and has been for generations.
I've taken a look at a lot of the examples that were provided of "uncivil" use of the facepalm template. Careful backtracking of several of the discussions revealed that the template doesn't seem to be being used with "newbie" editors as frequently as was being put forward; in fact, it seemed to be used most frequently when dealing with editors to whom explanations of poilcy/guideline had already been given, sometimes by multiple users. One example in particular hit home to me because it was in response to a multi-project serial sockmaster on his fourth or fifth account, "improving" an article with his own personal version of history that conveniently also bolstered his financial prospects.
So perhaps a better focus of discussion would be "how to deal with editors who are unable to or unwilling to understand project guidelines and policies". It seems that the primary use of this template is by editors expressing frustration at the inability, despite their best efforts, to address this issue.
Risker/Anne
-----Original Message----- From: wikien-l-bounces@lists.wikimedia.org [mailto:wikien-l- bounces@lists.wikimedia.org] On Behalf Of Risker Sent: 04 October 2011 18:25 To: English Wikipedia Subject: Re: [WikiEN-l] Facepalm?
So perhaps a better focus of discussion would be "how to deal with editors who are unable to or unwilling to understand project guidelines and policies". It seems that the primary use of this template is by editors expressing frustration at the inability, despite their best efforts, to address this issue.
Risker/Anne
But 'facepalming' them in (even legitimate) frustration at their evident obtuseness is, like calling someone a WP:DICK, unlikely to improve their behaviour, whilst it encourages people to use the same facepalm in situations where the recipient is a good faith editor, and the inference that they are being obtuse is unhelpful and uncivil/inflammatory.
Anyway, templates are always poor substitutes for actual communication, particularly in situations where tempers are apt to fray, and miscommunications are more than likely.
Scott