Chris Mahan wrote,
> > which begs the question, what do you mean by "communicative?" I
> > assume you
> > mean that the only thing it does is to describe or express
> > something else,
> > but has not force in and of itself.
>
>
>Your assumption was incorrect.
But judging from the rest of his response, my assumption was
correct. Chris, you just do not understand the point. I suggest you read
Austin's book and perhaps take a couple of courses in the philosophy of
language.
It looks like few people have interest in the question of hate speech, so I
will not belabor the point. But for everyone besides Chris, I do want to
add one more thing, to clarify my earlier points. One of Wikipedia's key
policies is to respect contributors, and an important behavioral guideline
is to avoid personal attacks. One reason I am so concerned about hate
speech is that I do not feel it is strictly covered by this policy and this
guideline -- because hate speech is impersonal. Strictly speaking, I did
not feel WHEELER was attacking me "personally," I felt he was attacking me
"impersonally." It was not directed at me personally (which is explicitly
against our policy) because it was not about me, personally. But it was
about Jews, so since I am a Jew it is about me, just me, impersonally. If
this is not clear, all I can ask is that you read any of the countless
explanations of the rationale behind hate speech legislation or hate crime
legislation. The point is not that you should agree that we need hate
speech legislation, just to understand how hate speech is different from
other forms of rude or insulting or disrespectful speech. Perhaps all I
have been asking for is recognition of another reason for mediation or
arbitration beyond the ones listed.
Steve
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Hatred leads to murder. Murder is bad. But should Wikipedia officially
oppose hatred? Or mass murder?
Given that Jimbo regularly intersperses his mailing list posts with
terms like "WikiLove" and urges us all to communicate cordially, perhaps
a time will come when Wikipedia can move from near-anarchy and/or benign
dictatorship to some sort of constitutional democracy. If so, a
statement of values may be necessary.
Values inform rules. We can't just make up rules out of the thin air,
and voting on them won't work if for no other reason than
ballot-stuffing can't be tracked.
Yet the mainstay of Wikipedia's conflict resolution policy, indeed the
only thing that allows it to be an open WIKI, is that all views are
tolerated; i.e., no view is endorsed when there's a controversy. We all
hesitate to tamper with this policy that has served us so well. But it
has its weaknesses.
* There's no way to stop people from their Holocaust-denying,
anti-Semitic rants.
* The debate over mass murder (i.e., "genocide") carried out by
Communist regimes always causes deadlock via page protection and
bannings.
I mean, if hate and murder are such problems maybe we should officially
label them as "bad".
Ed Poor (speaking for myself)
Lir,
Stop it. Stop acting like, "No matter how unpleasant I make myself to
the community, they have no right to get rid of me unless they prove to
_my_ satisfaction that I have broken a rule which applies equally to
everyone." Just stop doing this, or you'll never get back in the door.
I offered to help you, a year or so ago, when you got kicked out the
_first_ time. The issue hasn't changed: You can't be a member of this
community on _your_ terms. Nobody can, and ironically, this is a rule
that applies equally to everyone: if you want people to like you, start
by being likable.
If you want to be tolerated, you could be more tolerant. Anthere and
others have devoted a lot of time to helping you. They deserve genuine
thanks, not a sarcastic slap in the face.
If you want people to listen to you, try listening to _them_. Look for
at least one thing in each communication that you can agree with or
appreciate, and comment on _that_ instead of being so goldarn negative
all the time. I mean, really! :-(
If you want to be trusted, make every effort to _earn_ that trust.
There's a reason that a wealthy atheist (named Jimbo) trusted a "poor"
religious "nut" (named Ed) with awesome powers. The more responsibility
one shows, the more power others are willing to give them.
You could turn this whole thing around in a heartbeat. The ball's in
your court. Put community ahead of self, and you'll hit a home run! :-)
Uncle Ed
Member of mediation committee
Bureaucrat
... and Developer Emeritus
-----Original Message-----
From: Anthere [mailto:anthere9@yahoo.com]
Sent: Monday, July 05, 2004 6:13 AM
To: C A S [name omitted for privacy reasons]
Cc: wikien-l(a)wikimedia.org
Subject: [WikiEN-l] Re: thank you
Lir,
I think that unfortunately, whatever the rules you might breach
or not breach, and whatever Jimbo wish that you be plainly welcome back
as a member with full editing rights, it is unfortunately a fact that
many members of the english wikipedia are not happy with you being a
participant. And admittedly, your attitude just does not help convince
them that the benefits you are bringing Wikipedia balance the drawbacks.
It might help that you adopt a more positive stance, perhaps not always
criticizing so much volunteers for being either too quick or too slow,
or too rude or too polite, or too bold or not daring enough. May I
suggest that if you want to be treated in an appropriate manner, you
might perhaps think carefully about what is appropriate and what is not.
Your issue has everything to do with sockpuppets, as Guanaco
thought you were these sockpuppets (perhaps guidelines indicating how
the community decides that this one is a sock puppet or is not...though
we know nothing can really be proved), and as Guanaco also thought
sockpuppets were illegal (so perhaps guidelines indicating what is
illegal for a sock puppet to do, and what is legal would be good).
Policies such as this one should be designed at community level.
This is *not* the board job to do so *at all*. There must be a
discussion on the wiki itself, with wikipedians, and I guess Sannse can
help on this. Or whoever feels that sock puppet management has become a
very painful matter now. Also, both Sannse and Ed are members of the MC,
and Ed proposed to help you. This was your choice not to accept the
proposal.
I will add perhaps boldly that, regardless to rules and
policies, belonging to a community is essentially being "accepted" by
it, with defaults and qualities. It is more a feeling, a perception. But
qualities should always compensate defaults. Most of the time, there is
no need of crossing the name of a person on the membership list. Banning
is really the final indication that a community reject someone, and has
to do so officially, but before that happens, a few signs are meaningful
and may indicate to a "member" that he might consider just moving on.
C A S [name omitted for privacy reasons] <a[name omitted for privacy reasons](a)msn.com> wrote:
*would like you to cool down and allow time for things
to proceed.
**As if, you've had months and months to lift your
fingers -- you never intend to do anything.
*This week end, we had a meeting in Paris, so
essentially, Angela, Jimbo and I were unavailable.
**If you are too busy, resign from the board/mediation
committee and let someone else do the job.
*Was that it had been a not very good move from Guanaco,
misunderstanding from his part, but mostly unclear policy with regards
to sock puppets.
**It has nothing to do with sock puppets; no evidence
has been shown that Yuna or YES was a sockpuppet of mine. Regardless of
the rules regarding sockpuppets, I don't have one!
*Sannse agreed to try to work with others on this
policy, so that things are clearer. I thought this was essentially your
request
**I don't want "Sannse" working with others -- I want
the Wikimedia board to get off its ass and start demanding sysops
treating regular users in an appropriate manner.
*I have no idea of the last events, and frankly, right
now, really no time to look at it.
**Resign Anthere, resign -- nothing is getting done
because you don't have time, and nobody else can do it because you are
hogging too many important positions.
*I suggest that you explain what happened to the
arbitration committee if you really feel that it is important.
**The Arbitration Committee refuses to speak with me.
_____
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Chris Mahan recently wrote:
>The reason why I say that hate speech is not destructive is that
>speech itself is strictly communicative.
which begs the question, what do you mean by "communicative?" I assume you
mean that the only thing it does is to describe or express something else,
but has not force in and of itself. If this is what CM means, he is
mistaken. Some propositions are indeed expressive or descriptive (e.g., "I
feel sick" or "the house is blue" -- in the first case the proposition
describes how I feel, in the second case it describes the house. In both
cases the proposition is about something else). But some propositions are
performative -- statements which are in and of themselves actions. J.L.
Austin provides some pretty common examples: when someone says "I name this
ship The Queen Elizabeth" it is the very pronouncement that accomplishes
the naming. Similarly, when one says "I bet you ..." it is the act of
saying so that constitutes the bet. Or when someone says "I promise," it
is the very act of speaking that accomplishes the promise. You can call
these statements "communicative" if you like -- what is important is a
major distinction between these kinds of statements and statements like
"the house is blue."
The question is, what kind of proposition is "Jewish concentration camps"
(meaning, concentration camps run by Jews) I think the answer is, both. It
is a descriptive statement that can be either true or false (and in the
case of the camps WHEELER was referring too, false). But I believe it is
also a performative statement, and it is in this sense that it is hate
speech, and destructive.
Some people have suggested that what makes it hate speech is its potential
to incite physical violence. I think this is valid (and a valid legal
principle: threatening someone may be punishable, at least in the U.S., or
may not -- courts decide in part from weighing how likely the threat could
lead to physical violence). But the argument of "hate speech" is that
performative statements are in and of themselves violent. One example is
the power of speech to intimidate (and although threats may be purely
verbal, they can still be actionable for this reason). This was
established in the United States by the 1942 Supreme Court decision
Chaplinsky versus New Hampshire, which is the basis for some hate speech
legislation in the U.S. (and available on the web). Another is the power
of speech to stigmatize (this is in effect the argument MacKinnon and
Dworkin made against pornography -- the very act renders women sexual objects).
The ACLU opposes hate speech legislation on two grounds: first, it
considers hate speech one of the prices a society must pay for a general
right to freedom of speech, and second, it believes the best response to
hate speech is more speech. I happen to sympathize very strongly, or just
plain agree, with both of these. I do not think the state should limit
free speech. WHEELER, for example, has a right to say whatever
anti-Semitic thing he wants to, to anyone who wants to listen.
The question is, do I have to listen? Do you, do we have to listen? And,
more importantly, does Wikipedia have to be a medium through which anyone
spews hate speech? I don't think so.
And I think that anyone who construes this argument against hate speech on
Wikipedia as censorship is seriously distorting the situation. Wikipedia
is a community, not the state. Just because a person has a legal right to
do something does not mean we are obliged to collude. For example, people
have a right to advertise but we do not allow advertisements on
Wikipedia. Advertisements do not benefit our project, and only mislead
people as to the nature of our project. The same goes for hate speech. If
I thought it were possible that hate speech on Wikipedia could lead to the
improvement of an article, for example, I would defend it. But I don't
think it leads to the improvement of articles, and only appropriates our
space to hateful purposes.
Steve
Steven L. Rubenstein
Associate Professor
Department of Sociology and Anthropology
Bentley Annex
Ohio University
Athens, Ohio 45701
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In response to Denni and Christopher,
I have been in my company's mentoring program for over two years,
providing guidance to high school students at LaGuardia High School,
which prepares public high school students for professional careers in
dance, music or drama (the movie and TV series Fame both dramatized
student life there).
Now in it's 14th year, it is the longest running and most successful of
my company's volunteer programs.
The key is sponsorship and organization.
First of all, New York City _has_ a mentoring program for its schools.
There are mentoring coordinators both at my company, and at the local
high school. We organizers all meet each other at least three times a
year.
At Wikipedia, I used to follow newbies around and offer them help, but
then I got swept up in Jimbo's proposal to have a Mediation Committee
and an Arbitration Committee. I agreed to serve as a mediator, both on
the official (appointed) committee and later in Alex's grassroots
(elected) Member Advocate project.
These things didn't bear much fruit, because they are "courts of last
resort". Advocacy, mediation, arbitration -- these are all legal
mechanisms by which we turn the gears of justice.
Wouldn't it be better to plant seeds? And water them? And give them
sunlight and fresh air? (That is, guidance and praise and
encouragement?)
My response to the Six Month Experiment of having committees is that it
takes a lot of the work load off of Jimbo's shoulders and that it
performs a necessary task rather well. But it is not sufficient, in and
of itself, to provide the nurturing and nourishment needed for Wikipedia
to grow to full flower.
We need something more, like a Mentoring System.
Ed Poor, aka Uncle Ed
Either I misunderstand the purpose of the list-serve, or I misunderstand
Chris Mahan. I thought the purpose of the listserve. I thought one of the
purposes was to promote open dialogue about policy. I assume that dialogue
involves sharing and discussing values, principles, and methods from
different points of view. I took it for granted that any posting to the
listserve reflects the author's point of view, and I assumed that it was
not only alright but valuable that I present my own point of view. This is
what I was doing when I wrote:
> > I just don't want to see
> > someone
> > use Wikipedia as a vehicle for hate speech.
So frankly, I do not understand Chris Mahan's response:
>Your POV.
Of course it is my point of view. From context, CM seems to be suggesting
that it is not valid because it is my point of view. Why not? I don't get it.
Earlier, CM or someone else suggested that freedom of speech should be one
of my values. In order to explain why banning anti-Semitism from Wikipedia
would not infringe on freedom of speech, I wrote,
>--- "steven l. rubenstein" <rubenste(a)ohiou.edu> wrote:
> > What WHEELER wrote may very
> > well be
> > legal -- so he can write it elsewhere.
and CM responded,
>Why not here? We're a public forum.
But then CM wrote
>If they're being
>destructive, then ban them.
which is exactly my point. Hate speech is destructive. Does this now mean
that CM agrees with me?
Steve
Steven L. Rubenstein
Associate Professor
Department of Sociology and Anthropology
Bentley Annex
Ohio University
Athens, Ohio 45701
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I have discovered a suprisingly simple supergrand-unified theory
that explains God, the Universe, and everything. I would post it here,
but alas, the margin is too small :)
--Mark
Stephen Mooney wrote:
>I have discovered the Paradigm which integrates science, and which debunks
>physics of its misconceptions.
So have I! But mine is different from yours, and it's so profound
that no one but me can understand it.
--Sheldon Rampton
Lir,
I think that unfortunately, whatever the rules you might breach or not breach, and whatever Jimbo wish that you be plainly welcome back as a member with full editing rights, it is unfortunately a fact that many members of the english wikipedia are not happy with you being a participant. And admittedly, your attitude just does not help convince them that the benefits you are bringing Wikipedia balance the drawbacks. It might help that you adopt a more positive stance, perhaps not always criticizing so much volunteers for being either too quick or too slow, or too rude or too polite, or too bold or not daring enough. May I suggest that if you want to be treated in an appropriate manner, you might perhaps think carefully about what is appropriate and what is not.
Your issue has everything to do with sockpuppets, as Guanaco thought you were these sockpuppets (perhaps guidelines indicating how the community decides that this one is a sock puppet or is not...though we know nothing can really be proved), and as Guanaco also thought sockpuppets were illegal (so perhaps guidelines indicating what is illegal for a sock puppet to do, and what is legal would be good).
Policies such as this one should be designed at community level. This is *not* the board job to do so *at all*. There must be a discussion on the wiki itself, with wikipedians, and I guess Sannse can help on this. Or whoever feels that sock puppet management has become a very painful matter now. Also, both Sannse and Ed are members of the MC, and Ed proposed to help you. This was your choice not to accept the proposal.
I will add perhaps boldly that, regardless to rules and policies, belonging to a community is essentially being "accepted" by it, with defaults and qualities. It is more a feeling, a perception. But qualities should always compensate defaults. Most of the time, there is no need of crossing the name of a person on the membership list. Banning is really the final indication that a community reject someone, and has to do so officially, but before that happens, a few signs are meaningful and may indicate to a "member" that he might consider just moving on.
C A S [name omitted for privacy reasons] <a[name omitted for privacy reasons](a)msn.com> wrote:
*would like you to cool down and allow time for things to proceed.
**As if, you've had months and months to lift your fingers -- you never intend to do anything.
*This week end, we had a meeting in Paris, so essentially, Angela, Jimbo and I were unavailable.
**If you are too busy, resign from the board/mediation committee and let someone else do the job.
*Was that it had been a not very good move from Guanaco, misunderstanding from his part, but mostly unclear policy with regards to sock puppets.
**It has nothing to do with sock puppets; no evidence has been shown that Yuna or YES was a sockpuppet of mine. Regardless of the rules regarding sockpuppets, I don't have one!
*Sannse agreed to try to work with others on this policy, so that things are clearer. I thought this was essentially your request
**I don't want "Sannse" working with others -- I want the Wikimedia board to get off its ass and start demanding sysops treating regular users in an appropriate manner.
*I have no idea of the last events, and frankly, right now, really no time to look at it.
**Resign Anthere, resign -- nothing is getting done because you don't have time, and nobody else can do it because you are hogging too many important positions.
*I suggest that you explain what happened to the arbitration committee if you really feel that it is important.
**The Arbitration Committee refuses to speak with me.
---------------------------------
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On Mon, Jul 05, 2004 at 05:37:20AM +0000, wikien-l-request(a)Wikipedia.org wrote:
> I have discovered the Paradigm which integrates science, and which debunks
> physics of its misconceptions.
>
> An essay titled Debunking Physics and Discovery the Process of the Universe
> is posted at http://paradigm.blogharbor.com
>
> A paradigm is not a theory. A paradigm is a specification of the results of
> our observations and experiments.
>
> All the results of the observations and experiments of physics are specified
> by the Paradigm.
>
> The application of the Paradigm is the future of science.
>
> I invite your response.
>
> Stephen Mooney
>
Mr. Mooney,
Wikipedia is a distributed project of thousands of volunteers; it has an
extremely loose governance structure. There is no "editorial board" -
editorial content is (usually) determined by the consensus of those who
are interested in writing about those topics, on the basis of guidelines
developed, mostly by consensus, over its history.
One guideline that have been with the project virtually since its inception,
and on which there is a very strong consensus, has been that Wikipedia is not
a venue to publish original research: see
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:No_original_research
If your work gains the attention of a significant number of people (for
instance, through publication in a prominent scientific journal and
the consequent further investigation of your ideas by others, or if a
book featuring your work becomes popular, or you recieve attention
in the mass media, or suchlike), then it will be appropriate for
Wikipedia to add material on it.
Given that your website with the explanation of your theory dates to
four days ago and has not received any attention in either the
scientific or general media (indeed, Google suggests that noone has
linked to your website yet), at this moment material posted to Wikipedia
about your work would likely be removed according to this policy.
--
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
Robert Merkel
robert.merkel(a)benambra.org
http://benambra.org
"Sleeping makes me tired"
-- Inspector Gadget (Don Adams)
--------------------------------------------------------------------------