Wik wrote (in a post forwarded by Jimbo):
>I made the mistake of trusting your word; you gave a supposedly final
>warning to Quagga, but didn't follow up on it. Therefore I'll now give
>you the final warning: if Quagga isn't banned within 24 hours, I'll
>start a script which does everything automatically including changing
>proxies as needed, so don't hope that I will tire of it; nor is there
>anything else you can do against it. It will run until Quagga is banned.
>Too bad you don't understand any other language.
So you all know, there is vandalism going on right now which has the
following characteristics:
*the entire content of a page is replaced with the content: "==Stop
vandalism, or suffer it yourself.=="
*said edits are made to prominent community pages including the village
pump, VfD and Goings-on, and to the talk and user pages of several
prominent users (Jimbo, Heph, RickK) as well as Quagga
*the edits are being made a more-or-less regular intervals, not all in a
splurge - I'd guess they're in the region of about one per minute
*each edit is made by under a different username
*blocking the usernames is having no effect (I suppose because a different
IP is being used for each edit)
Clearly, this could be related to the Wik-script mentioned here.
The vandalism itself is quite easy to spot and rollback, but if it really
is a script and this goes on for hours or days, it's going to get supremely
irritating.
I don't have an opinion on what we should do. This is just for information.
Lee (Camembert)
"I can't see why you are so intent on suppressing free speech."
As the meatball wiki article says, threatening to sue someone does exactly
that - it prevents people from discussing things freely. Putting this rule on
the books would effectively do the opposite.
--Mark
Mav wrote:
> Blah, blah, blah Robert. You cry wolf so often that
> I just delete your messages without ever reading
> them anymore. I'm sure many other people do the same.
Your taunting is out of place, Mav. Please refrain from
using this list in that way; this list is only for
discussion of Wikipedia policy.
Further, Wikipedia users should be aware that Mav's claims
are incorrect. Just check the edit history of the article I
named.
[[Palestinian views of the peace process ]]
Its not a matter of opinion whether or not Anthere did such
editing and protection; the only opinion can be on if this
was wise.
Danny writes:
> As of today, Anthere has quite a bit more authority
> than you care to imagine. Pick your enemies wisely,
> Robert. I wouldn't go launching attacks on the Board
> if I were you.
Danny, from where I stand, those with the most power are
the ones who are most obligated to be careful in using this
power, and in making sure that Wikipedia rules are followed
in a fair manner. In fact, that is what others on this list
hae always said as well. Your letter basically implies that
we must do what the new powers that be say, "or else".
Even Anthere isn't saying this. Maybe I was a bit hot in
how I expressed my disagreement with her actions, but I was
very specific about what I considered wrong, and why.
I offered several paragraphs stating what my points were
(even if these paragraphs were written by a better writer
than myself.) People had the opportunity to read them, and
consider them on their merits. That's what this list is for
- when we think an issue isn't about an article, but about
Wikipeida policy itself. I see no reason to refrain from
doing this.
Ironically, only Anthere has actually responded to the
points in my letter to this list. And she has replied in a
modest and impartial way which gives me much hope. She
focused on the content and on the issues I raised, a lesson
for all of us. However, others have made polemical
statements or personal remarks. Thus:
(A) It looks like mediation can be made on this article,
between Anthere, Mav, Danny, myself, and others.
(B) But it depresses me that many people here refuse to
focus on the specific issues, and focus instead on personal
issues.
This is not what I expected at all, but it's interesting.
RK (Robert)
__________________________________
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Yahoo! Mail is new and improved - Check it out!
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This user has taken to calling me "Troll", and dismissing me w such in talk pages.
I find this to be an offensive presonal attack.
When I request for him to discuss this with me or change the behaviour, he deletes my request.
"removing troll" is the edit summary.
What is to be done w this sort of harassment?
Jack
_______________________________________________
Join Excite! - http://www.excite.com
The most personalized portal on the Web!
For the ignorant Americans: Even though I'm indulging in an
exercise as silly as "proving" that John F Kennedy belonged to
the Democratic Party, I'm placing evidence on this list since
most Americans are ignorant people brainwashed by Fox TV and
go by stereotypes and get easily exploited as it has happened in
this case.
The question is whether VR Krishna Iyer is a Marxist or not.
Of course he was a Minister in a Communist Government and he was the PResidential candidate of the Communist Party, but here is more stuff.
Maharshi means "great sage."
http://www.hindu.com/thehindu/br/2001/11/27/stories/2001112700100400.htm
It is thus clear to those who take a serious view of the values of human existence, not a flippant abuse of religion or bigoted allergy to Marx, that Maharshi Marx (a profound expression used by Swami Ranganathananda) and the divinity of finer theology have no hostility, both being bed-rocked in humanity in the highest dimension.
http://www.hindu.com/2004/05/17/stories/2004051709801200.htm
The current situation involves providing a new direction to economic development and dismantling the ideological structure created by communalism and ``the Left can undertake the task only as a part of the government and not by supporting it from outside ,'' said the `appeal' addressed to the Communist Party of India (Marxist) general secretary, Harkishan Singh Surjeet, and his Communist Party of India (CPI) counterpart, A.B. Bardhan, as well as to the policy making bodies of the two parties that are currently in session to decide on the nature of support to the Government.
Among the signatories were K. N. Panikkar, Namwar Singh, U.R. Ananthamurthy, V.K. Krishna Iyer, A. K. Hangal, Asghar Ali Engineer, Praful Bidwai, Baba Azmi, Nandita Das, Govind Nihalani, Prof. Yashpal, Anand Patwardhan, Habib Tanveer, Saeed Mirza and Shabana Azmi.
-libertarian
_______________________________________________
No banners. No pop-ups. No kidding.
Make My Way your home on the Web - http://www.myway.com
Let's change the thread name, so it sounds less like a personal attack.
Ed Poor
Mailing List Admin
English Wikipedia
-----Original Message-----
From: libertarian [mailto:libertarian@myway.com]
Sent: Monday, June 14, 2004 10:51 PM
To: wikien-l(a)Wikipedia.org
Subject: Re: [WikiEN-l] Proof of Mark Richards' ignorance
> Libertarian, if you wish to take this beyond whatever talk pages
> you and Mark have been arguing on previously, please give us some
> context. Or, preferably, don't - stick to the normal Wikipedia
> dispute resolution
> process.
Fair enough, I'll give you the context. But before that, I want you to
know that I went through the normal dispute resolution process and
submitted a list of factual errors in the existing documents and
corrections along with detailed documentation.
The counter-party did not even bother to make such a submission and this
was then buried without any resolution. I want to know why India and
Hindus should be judged by radical Communists who indulge in propaganda
and why such propaganda should be presented as FACT,
while Christian nations are judged by people who owe allegience to
Christianity and are usually from the mainstream White society.
The whole issue was about a firebombing of a train by Muslims (doing
their regular religious duty) which sparked riots in India leaving
hundreds of people dead (Hindus as well as Muslims, but naturally, the
number of Muslims who were killed was more. This is due to the fact that
Hindus outnumber Muslims.) Like any other Hindu-Muslim riot, the Muslims
start it and the number of dead Muslims outnumber the number of dead
Hindus.
The firebombing was twisted by Communists (both in India as well as by
those posting on Wikipedia) as a sudden fight which erupted because the
Hindu passengers (it turned out that many of them were women and babies)
had provoked the Muslims.
Now, anyone with even a little analytical ability will realize that 2000
strong mob doesn't collect because two people squabbled over the price
of tea. Secondly, how did they get cans of petrol and diesel which was
enough to burn down a train? All of this happened within 3 minutes for
which the train stopped at the station.
Coming to Wikipedia, the claim about some passenger squabbling over the
price of tea and then dragging a Muslim girl (unidentified of course)
into the train was circulated on the internet and that chain mail gave
the name of a journalist as the eyewitness who saw the incident. It also
had his phone number.
Some journalists who were superior phoned up the 'eyewitness' for
confirmation and were taken aback when the 'eyewitness' said that some
enemy of his had sent out that mail and he felt harassed by all the
calls and that he had actually reported the opposite! I posted the
articles which appeared in mainstream media pointing this out.
Yet, the mediators after offering to mediate and making me go through
due diligence collecting evidence and carefully documenting them, chose
to pretend that I did not exist. Perhaps they were lazy. Perhaps their
ignorance was being exploited.
The second point was a report by a self-appointed "Human Rights" group
which was a Communist organization. The key person was a person named VR
Krishna Iyer, who was a Communist and IS a Communist. I was hounded out
of Wikipedia for saying this. The 'expert' from India was a college kid
who knew nothing about Indian politics and was spewing Communist
rhetoric. That chap was bewildered when I pointed out that VR Krishna
Iyer was a Communist and the whole report was a string of allegations
against unnamed people using usual Communist rhetoric. He needed to do a
Google search to see if it was true. This is amazing because VRKI being
a Communist is similar to Bill Clinton being a Democrat. There is no
dispute here. Any Indian with half-baked knowledge will laugh at you if
you try to dispute this claim.
All my points were obfuscated with the word alleged. Take my advice, if
you are going to say that Bill Clinton is an alleged Democrat, it is
Wikipedia's reputation which will suffer. All Communist propaganda has
been presented as fact.
If VRKI's judgement of India is gospel, so too should be his judgement
of USA. I think it is fair. Why should you be judged by a different
yardstick? Sauce for the goose is sauce for the gander.
I hope you know what Mumbai Resistance is about. It is a violent
Communist organization which had its meeting in Mumbai while the World
Social Forum meet was going on. Check out
http://www.mumbairesistance.org/
That site also has a message from VR Krishna Iyer where he extends his
support for this violent organization.
http://www.mumbairesistance.org/Messages/justice%20vrkrishna.htm
Again, I went through the regular mediation process. I was the one who
trusted the mediators. I was the one who took the trouble of explaining
the situation. I was the one who documented my claims. I would prefer
that this be sorted out in the open with trustworthy people, not people
like Angela or Brian Corr who played a game of deception.
Again, I am willing to agree to the Communists' views of India as the
one which should be put out on Wikipedia provided you agree to have
their views of "imperialist" USA as mainstream views. We'll use "facts"
about USA from the same crowd which wrote up that report. Fair enough?
-libertarian
_______________________________________________
No banners. No pop-ups. No kidding.
Make My Way your home on the Web - http://www.myway.com
Am I right in thinking that Wik is currently not banned? (his 7 days
are up?)If that is the case can the very first thing we do is
permanently ban him for making this threat? Do we need the AC for that?
It's simple vandalism in my book.
>If it is possible to tie user Quagga to the ongoing activity on those
>pages, then Quagga should be banned as well, not because of Wik's
>threats but because the behavior is simple trolling.
But Quagga is a sockpuppet so what would that achieve?
I'm happy to block any IP that trolls. I'm happy to block Quagga too if
it can be proved that the anons were him, but I'm worried about what
Wik's next move would be. Would he make more demands?
>Myself, I wonder if Wik is not just trolling himself in order to
>harass us. One can never tell -- it seems that people will go to
>extreme lengths when the point at stake is completely trivial,
>juvenile, stupid and pointless.
I don't know but his motives are kind of besides the point. Let him try
to harass us all he likes. He has IMO a rather over inflated sense of
his own destructive ability. We can weather any storm he throws at us.
Theresa
--------------------------
From: wik1234(a)fastmail.fm
Date: Mon, 14 Jun 2004 21:47:21 UT
Date: Mon, 14 Jun 2004 13:47:21 -0800
To: "Jimmy Wales" <jwales(a)bomis.com>
Subject: Quagga's vandalism
The vandalism goes on and on:
06:09, 14 Jun 2004 Isomorphic deleted "User talk:Wik/Talk/Wik" (trolling
by some anon)
06:09, 14 Jun 2004 Isomorphic deleted "User:Wik/temp" (trolling by some
anon)
06:09, 14 Jun 2004 Secretlondon deleted "User talk:User talk:Wik"
(content was: 'I have sucked hairy balls for most of my life. i enjoy
wathing elephants have sex because incase you didnt know, the elephant
penis is the size of my ...')
I made the mistake of trusting your word; you gave a supposedly final
warning to Quagga, but didn't follow up on it. Therefore I'll now give
you the final warning: if Quagga isn't banned within 24 hours, I'll
start a script which does everything automatically including changing
proxies as needed, so don't hope that I will tire of it; nor is there
anything else you can do against it. It will run until Quagga is banned.
Too bad you don't understand any other language.
----- End forwarded message -----
_______________________________________________
WikiEN-l mailing list
WikiEN-l(a)Wikipedia.org
http://mail.wikipedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikien-l
The usual. The threat here is direct and warrants a permanent ban. I
can confirm this email to be that of user Wik, because he emailed me
using this account before he was banned, etc. The two are adequately
associated.
If it is possible to tie user Quagga to the ongoing activity on those
pages, then Quagga should be banned as well, not because of Wik's
threats but because the behavior is simple trolling.
Myself, I wonder if Wik is not just trolling himself in order to
harass us. One can never tell -- it seems that people will go to
extreme lengths when the point at stake is completely trivial,
juvenile, stupid and pointless.
--------------------------
From: wik1234(a)fastmail.fm
Date: Mon, 14 Jun 2004 21:47:21 UT
Date: Mon, 14 Jun 2004 13:47:21 -0800
To: "Jimmy Wales" <jwales(a)bomis.com>
Subject: Quagga's vandalism
The vandalism goes on and on:
06:09, 14 Jun 2004 Isomorphic deleted "User talk:Wik/Talk/Wik" (trolling
by some anon)
06:09, 14 Jun 2004 Isomorphic deleted "User:Wik/temp" (trolling by some
anon)
06:09, 14 Jun 2004 Secretlondon deleted "User talk:User talk:Wik"
(content was: 'I have sucked hairy balls for most of my life. i enjoy
wathing elephants have sex because incase you didnt know, the elephant
penis is the size of my ...')
I made the mistake of trusting your word; you gave a supposedly final
warning to Quagga, but didn't follow up on it. Therefore I'll now give
you the final warning: if Quagga isn't banned within 24 hours, I'll
start a script which does everything automatically including changing
proxies as needed, so don't hope that I will tire of it; nor is there
anything else you can do against it. It will run until Quagga is banned.
Too bad you don't understand any other language.
----- End forwarded message -----
"Well, no. It would be like, if in a small city there is one known criminal,
and if a crime happens soon after he's released, detaining him."
I guess this means it's about time to 'round up the usual suspects.
--Mark