>From: Dante Alighieri <dalighieri(a)digitalgrapefruit.com>
>Reply-To: Discussion list for English-language
>Wikipedia<wikien-l(a)Wikipedia.org>
>To: Discussion list for English-language Wikipedia <wikien-l(a)Wikipedia.org>
>Subject: Re: [WikiEN-l] Controversial user nicknames
>Date: Tue, 26 Aug 2003 01:55:40 -0700
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>
>At 09:48 PM 8/25/2003, you wrote:
>>How about your real name, a real pseudonym or
>>a fanciful name? If you try and change your name
>>to something offensive, no judge will allow you to
>>do that, but most places allow people to use any name
>>they want without any formalities if the use of that
>>name is not meant to be confusing, misleading or
>>fraudulent. Using a famous name as a pseudonym
>>can be confusing, misleading and/or fraudulent.
>>
>>How about a bright line rule: no historical or actual
>>public figures i.e. "absolute person of contemporary history"?
>>see:
>>http://www.wikipedia.org/wiki/Personality_rights#Personality_rights_in_Germ…
>>
>>No one should be allowed to use a name that could
>>be considered offensive, misleading or fraudulent,
>>that includes IMHO calling onself Albert Einstein,
>>Beethoven or Blaise Pascal (amongst others).
>>Alex756
>
>I'm just curious how my user name could be considered confusing, misleading
>and/or fraudulent. Since I can't figure out what "contemporary history"
>means (since you've listed people who have been dead for centuries) I'll
>just have to assume that my name would be forbidden under your proposal.
>
>Aside from the fact that the historical Dante Alighieri died 682 years ago,
>I'm sure that I could change my name legally to Dante Alighieri if I so
>desired. As a matter of fact, I don't suppose there's any way that you
>could prove that my name /isn't/ legally Dante Alighieri.
>
>
>
I had your case in mind when I suggested no /twentieth century/ names that
were political, military etc. I think pre-20th century names are reasonably
OK though the odd problem might crop up. But 20th century/21st century is an
easily understood cutoff off, whereas 'contemporary' is too ambiguous.
Re real names, I'm not in favour. By all means encourage it, but some people
might prefer to keep their personal identities to themselves, and that that
attitude may increase as academics, journalists, writers etc decide to come
on board as we get bigger. They might prefer to be judged on what they write
on wiki, not on their off wiki identity.
JT
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Just a reminder for the newcomers (perhaps should I
write a monthly reminder...and perhaps popularity
could be measured by the number of those)
# Anthere2
# Anthiere
# Anth�rement
# Anth�re
# Anth�re
# Anth�re
are not me.
I noticed with interest that Mr Bush father was not
included in the list.
I wonder what would happen where a George Bush appears
and focuse his writing on war articles, propaganda,
and such
or another one on the clitoris article
I think that when it comes to deciding which names are
controversial and should be immediately deleted and
which ones are ok, there is a long way left before
consensus :-)
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At 02:10 PM 8/25/2003, JT wrote:
>This might seem a small point now, as we don't have that many
>controversial user nics. But as wiki grows the number of new users and
>usernics will rocket. If two or three people use them and get away with
>it, the likelihood is that more new members will follow, on the basis that
>'if he can call himself 'x', then I will call myself 'y'.' Sooner or
>later we will face the problem. It makes sense to do it now, with the
>small community, than try to deal with it when there are twice or three
>times as many users, by which time offence may already have been caused to
>some, and potential wikipedians frightened off by the impression given by
>the unfortunate use of badly chosen names.
>
>Any observations?
>
>JT
Sounds like a good idea to me.
-- mav (in lurk mode)
>First, some pages (e.g. Israel) will probably just have to permanently be
>> protected. Well, maybe you need some sort of intermediate level of
>> protection; e.g. only editable by someone who a) has an account, b) has
>> it for a month, and c) has made a threshold level of accepted edits. But
>> allowing anyone, even someone who's not logged in, to edit them is just
>> going to turn into a constant edit war.
>This is actually a pretty good idea. I'm always in favor of finding
>ways to turn our blunt instruments into 'softer' tools. What I like
>about your proposal here is that it *is* soft. It could be used only
>for certain pages marked as 'controversial', and that only *after*
>they've become targetted for some kind of mass attack, or if an
>ongoing flame war has lasted for months with no hope of resolution.
I think it is a *very* bad idea. It will add another level to the
Wikipedia hiearchy. I'd rather have the sporadic vandals and flame wars
than let that happen. In my utopia every anon should be treated exactly
the same as Jimbo Wales.
Let's just accept the fact that there will always be vandals. They
haven't fucked up WP yet so why worry?
It's like those patriot laws... :-)
BL
>Erik wrote
>Wikipedia should be hosted in the country which has the most liberal
>policies overall concerning information. Currently, that country is still
>the United States.
>
Does this mean that wikipedians outside the US can break their own native
copyright rules when loading something onto wiki and are covered because of
US law? Or would the presumption be that as they had broken native copyright
rules in scanning or copying the image, they or wiki would be liable in
their country?
JT
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>
>james duffy wrote, quoting the vandal du jour:
> > Listen you fucking moron, I can use whatever language I want in the
> > duscussion pages. The article however, are a different story.
>
>Jimbo responded:
>Actually, courtesy to others is mandated at all times, and personal
>attacks are neer the right thing to do. It's completely beyond the
>pale for this person or anyone else to call someone a 'moron', fucking
>or celibate.
>
> > I have blocked him again. The blocks are on 68.120.204.62,
>68.120.205.147
> > and 68.120.205.218. Any suggestions about deal with this bigot?
>
>Well, it's very unfortunate, but 68.120.204.* and 68.120.205.* may
>find themselves all blocked in a few days if he doesn't give up.
>
>One possibility is to invite him to the mailing list, or to email me.
>Maybe I can calm him down, or maybe when faced with the need to
>justify his statements, he'll realize that they are inappropriate.
I don't know if it is the same person (it is in the 67 range this time, but
the 68 user did threaten to bring on friends to 'hit' Jewish-orientated
articles) but some rather dodgy comments have started to appear that sound
like what in Ireland is known as 'taking the piss' (ironic ridicule).
This appeared on the [[Talk:Israel]] page:
I hate it when a bunch of lowly Goyim make comments about Israel. When are
these Goyishe Kop losers going to realize that Yahveh created them to be
ruled by us?
This was put in [[Jew]]:
Jews are very nice people, and it is extremely unfair that so many different
cultures from different parts of the world, at different periods of human
history, have said similar things about this nice peopel. Terrible
attributes like stinginess, tight-fistedness, money-grabbing, greedy,
conspiring, networking amongst themselves to the detriment of their host
nation, living parasitic lives among the Goyim, and other unfair attributes
of the sort, are just false and unfair accusations, probably out of jealousy
because the Jews are so good-looking that the lowly Goyim have always been
jealous of this nice shadow nation.
It is not clear how so many different cultures from vastly different
geographic areas, at different times have all said similar things about the
Jews, but studies have proven beyond a shadow of a doubt that these
accusations all spring from the jealousy of the Goyim (plural of Goy; Goy in
Hebrew means non-Jew).
I removed the above stuff that he put on the talk page. His response was
# 05:38, 23 Aug 2003 Talk:Israel (Motherfucker, do not delete stuff form
discussion pages.) He then proceded to put back in the comments. I rolled
them back and blocked the IP.
Either [[Israel]] and related articles has just happened to become
'nutter-central' in terms of the people whom it has attracted in the last 3
days, or someone (and maybe a friend) is deliberately trying to 'hit' these
articles to provoke people.
JT
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hey, I had some trouble subscribing due to Yahoo
placing the confirmation request in my bulk mail
folder, but TUF-KAT is back to Wikipedia and the
mailing list.
Quite naturally, the first thing I did upon my
much-heralded return is get confused. Is there a page
somewhere that explains how the table of contents
thing works? Most specifically, why is [[All Eyez on
Me]] messed up, formatting-wise? (IE 5.0 on MacOS 9.2)
Tokingly yours, TUF-KAT
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I know that Jimbo and others here have spoken to
EntmootsOfTrolls, but EoT is getting more out of control.
He has stepped up his actions, and is now is creating
parodies of my Wikipedia User page.
It is my understanding that it is forbidden to create
Wikipedia articles whose contents exist solely to slander
Wikipedia contributors. And this is in addition to his
harassment that has already been agreed upon as bannable.
Since EoT is refusing to follow Wikipedia consensus, even
though he has been warned he could be banned, and since he
is actually making things worse, we are left with no choice
but to ban him.
This is an addition to my homepage.
http://www.wikipedia.org/wiki/User:RK/A_Liberal_Defense_of_Zionism
And here is the bizzare new Wikipedia article by
EntmootsOfTrolls.
User talk:RK/A Liberal Defense of Zionism
I understand that EoT may have some "issues" that prevent
him from functioning normally. But the rest of you have no
such excuse. Please stop supporting his non-stop
harassment, and abuse of Wikipedia article policy.
We have a choice: Make this a community where people can
work together, or make it a community which supports group
psychological harassment. The choice is yours. Please
choose in a way which demonstrates wisdom.
Robert (RK)
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>
>Toby Bartels wrote:
>
>>>* An accusation of racism on behalf of the Israeli government
>>>has been Orwellianly interpreted as racism on behalf of the accuser.
>>>(In a more complicated context, that can be a wise deduction,
>>>such as when people excuse all lex solis regimes except Israel.
>>>But many people are just ignorant about that situation.)
>>>
>>>
>>
>>Whoops! the Latin is backwards; should be "lex sanguinis".
>>
>>In a lex solis (jus solis, law of the soil) regime,
>>citizenship is determined by the location of birth;
>>in a lex sanguinis (jus sanguinis, law of the blood) regime,
>>citizenship is determined by the status of the parents.
>>Lex sanguinis is arguably racist when the parents' race matters,
>>irrespective of the parents' citizenship status.
>>(It's arguably racist in any case, but that'a a harder argument.)
>>
>>This is the case with quite a few regimes, the State of Israel among them.
>>That Jews of any birth nationality (and any degree of religious practice)
>>are permitted to become citizens of Israel upon their arrival,
>>is a common argument for the «Zionism = racism» equation.
>>But many people that make that argument ignore the similar situation
>>in (for just one example) Germany (IIRC). In certain cases,
>>such a biased attitude may be traceable to their own racism.
>>
>>And of course, things are never as simple as this bipolar division.
>>Israel, Germany, etc, also have lex solis provisions.
>>
>>
>>
>FWIW, the 'lex sanguinis' type provisions are in fact quite widespread,
>especially in the EU. In addition to Germany, Greece has such provisions
>-- I was born and have lived in the US my entire life, but can claim Greek
>citizenship simply by providing documentation of my Greek heritage;
>meanwhile, the many Albanian immigrants in the country are not Greek
>citizens. There's probably other countres in the EU that do this as well
>that I don't know about.
>
>-Mark
In Ireland, anyone outside Ireland whose parents or grandparents were Irish
citizens are entitled to Irish citizenship.
JT
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>Toby wrote:
>Furthermore, you apparently protected the page to win an edit war
>that you were taking place in.
I did nothing of the sort and how dare you suggest it. An anonymous user
appeared and added in highly POV rascist material into a page. The material
could not be substantiated and the language used suggested it was someone
trying in a very blatent way to POV the article. I reverted the addition and
notified those who had worked on the article as I suspected they might be
better placed to deal with the issue. The user in question proceeded to
re-insert his anti-zionist rant and verbally abuse everyone else who touched
it. I checked his list of contributions to try to ascertain whether this was
a rather naive newbie with a problem of grasping NPOV, or a vandal. (The
page in question had been subject to nakedly sectarian vandalism for a
while.) All the evidence I could find was of a user who had made other
contributions that had been seen as vandalism and had been reverted
elsewhere. When he continued abusing other users, in the belief that he was
a vandal I blocked him.
He then came back as a new IP added in the same POV stuff and called people
''fucking morons'', ''fucking hypocrites, etc
Among his talk page comments were
<Sarcasm> Yes, I'll admit it: everyone here on Wikipedia is a paid
propogandist for the worldwise Zionist colonialist genocidal conspiracy!
That's why we have articles on Israeli terrorism and Deir Yassin massacre,
and why the Palestinian page doesn't even *contain* the words "terror" or
"terrorist" or "terrorism". </Sarcasm> Look, there are lots of facts in the
world. It's a fact that the Israelis assassinated Muhammad Sadr, the Islamic
Jihad leader in Hebron. It's a fact that afte that, two Palestinian militant
groups, Islamic Jihad and Hamas, claimed responsibility for a deliberate
attack on a civililan bus that killed quite a few people, including many
children. It's a fact that the Israelis then killed Abu Shanab, one of the
founders of Hamas, in the Gaza strip.
I have disagreed with some users on the page who have been pushing a less
than NPOV pro-Israel stance. I reverted and requested the banning of a user
who inserted rascist anti-Israel attacks all over wiki. I have regularly
reworded mentions of the Israeli-Palestinian conflict on the current events
page to remove one-sided comments from either side and ensure equality of
language and interpretation. I was NOT involved in an edit war with this IP
contributor. I was simply doing what I was doing with /everyone else/,
ensuring that NPOV standards were followed. The behaviour and threats of the
user in question pretty much shows that he was not some poor newbie wrongly
treated but someone determined to vandalise articles.
/If/ I had abused my sysop powers to 'win' against an opponent, I would not
have drawn attention to the fact by contacting other users, by putting a
note on the Vandalism page and sent a note about it around on the wiki list,
would I?
I stand over my decisions and resent your gross and dishonest
misrepresention of them.
JT
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