A few days ago I made the following post to Project Chat, looking at how people are linking from Wikidata items to Commons categories and galleries compared to a year ago, that some people on the list may have seen, which has now been archived:
https://www.wikidata.org/wiki/Wikidata:Project_chat/Archive/2015/08#Trends_i...
A couple of headlines:
* Category <-> commonscat identifications :
** There was a net increase of 61,784 Commons categories that can now be identified with category-like items, to 323,825 Commons categories in all
** 96.4% of category <-> commonscat identifications (312,266 items) now have sitelinks. This represents a rise in sitelinks (60,463 items) amounting to 97.8% of the increase in identifications
** 80.0% of category <-> commonscat identifications (259,164 items) now have P373 statements. This represents a rise in P373 statements (8,774 items) amounting to 14.2% of the increase in identifications
* Article <-> commonscat identifications :
** There was a net increase of 176,382 Commons categories that can now be identified with article-like items, to 884,439 Commons categories in all
** 23.4% of article <-> commonscat identifications (207,494 items) now have (deprecated) sitelinks. This represents a rise in sitelinks (112,595 items) amounting to 63.8% of the increase in identifications.
** 91.3% of article <-> commonscat identifications (807,776 items) now have P373 statements. This represents a rise in P373 statements (110,727 items) amounting to 62.8% of the increase in identifications
* In addition, a recent RfC showed considerable confusion as to what actually was the current operational Wikidata policy on sitelinks to Commons:
https://www.wikidata.org/wiki/Wikidata:Requests_for_comment/Category_commons...
In view of the trends above; and the need for predictability and consistency for queries and templates and scripts to depend on; and particularly in view of the apparent confusion as to what the operational policy currently actually is, can I suggest that the time has come for a bot to monitor all new sitelinks to Commons categories, * adding a corresponding P373 statement if there is not one already, and * removing the sitelink if it is from an article-like item to a commonscat.
I believe we have clear policy on only sitelinking commons categories to category-like items, and commons galleries to article-like items; but there is currently confusion and unpredictability being caused because these relationships are not being enforced -- breaking scripts and queries.
It's time to fix this.
All best,
James.
No we have not a clear policy on only linking sitelinks to categories if the item itself is about a category. So not let's not break that.
You suggest to break down almost the complete navigational structure Commons has in relationship with Wikipedia, and makes it possible to find articles that are about the same subject as the category. Without it becomes almost impossible to identify a category on Commons to be related to an article in Wikipedia. Sorry, but your proposal is insane and making the navigational situation a thousand times worse. And does it make anything better? No, totally not. Only the opposite: worse.
Wikidata is currently heavily used to connect categories on Commons to articles on Wikipedia. This so that interwikilinks are shown on the category on Commons to the related Wikipedia article. This for navigational purposes but also to uniquely identify categories on Commons to articles on Wikipedia and items on Wikidata.
How nice Commons galleries are giving an overview, they are crap in speaking of navigational purposes. For every subject a category on Commons is created and used and the Commons categories form the backbone to media categories.
It has been pointed out for a long time that the linking situation on Commons is problematic and this is a software issue, not a user side issue. This consists out of: * There can only be added one sitelink to an item. * If no sitelink added (but only added as property), a Commons category can't show the interwikilinks. * If a category and an article on Wikipedia/etc exist for a subject, only one of them can be shown on the Commons category.
The annoying part is that some large wikis, especially the English Wikipedia, creates too many categories that are not created on other Wikipedias. This causes that categories on Commons are only linked to a category on Wikipedia, which is useless for most other wikis and on Commons we miss an interwikilink to the related article.
A gallery on Commons is a great way as alternative to show images, but is not suitable for navigational purposes, as that requires a much higher coverage and being a backbone everything relies on. On Commons only categories have that function. A counter proposal makes more sense: no Commons galleries as sitelinks any more and having Commons galleries only as property added.
But this only solves a part of the problem: on Commons I would like to see somehow that both the related category as the related article are shown. Example: on the Commons category for a specific country both the country category on Wikipedia is linked as the article on Wikipedia is linked.
Something I have been wondering about for a long time is why there are 2 places on an item where a Commonscat is added. I understand the development and technical behind it, but this should not be needed.
So the developers of Wikidata should try to find a way to show both groups of interwikilinks on categories on Commons.
As long as this is not resolved in software, this problem of 2 items both strongly related to a Commons category keeps an issue.
Romaine
2015-08-27 11:29 GMT+02:00 James Heald j.heald@ucl.ac.uk:
A few days ago I made the following post to Project Chat, looking at how people are linking from Wikidata items to Commons categories and galleries compared to a year ago, that some people on the list may have seen, which has now been archived:
https://www.wikidata.org/wiki/Wikidata:Project_chat/Archive/2015/08#Trends_i...
A couple of headlines:
- Category <-> commonscat identifications :
** There was a net increase of 61,784 Commons categories that can now be identified with category-like items, to 323,825 Commons categories in all
** 96.4% of category <-> commonscat identifications (312,266 items) now have sitelinks. This represents a rise in sitelinks (60,463 items) amounting to 97.8% of the increase in identifications
** 80.0% of category <-> commonscat identifications (259,164 items) now have P373 statements. This represents a rise in P373 statements (8,774 items) amounting to 14.2% of the increase in identifications
- Article <-> commonscat identifications :
** There was a net increase of 176,382 Commons categories that can now be identified with article-like items, to 884,439 Commons categories in all
** 23.4% of article <-> commonscat identifications (207,494 items) now have (deprecated) sitelinks. This represents a rise in sitelinks (112,595 items) amounting to 63.8% of the increase in identifications.
** 91.3% of article <-> commonscat identifications (807,776 items) now have P373 statements. This represents a rise in P373 statements (110,727 items) amounting to 62.8% of the increase in identifications
- In addition, a recent RfC showed considerable confusion as to what
actually was the current operational Wikidata policy on sitelinks to Commons:
https://www.wikidata.org/wiki/Wikidata:Requests_for_comment/Category_commons...
In view of the trends above; and the need for predictability and consistency for queries and templates and scripts to depend on; and particularly in view of the apparent confusion as to what the operational policy currently actually is, can I suggest that the time has come for a bot to monitor all new sitelinks to Commons categories,
- adding a corresponding P373 statement if there is not one already, and
- removing the sitelink if it is from an article-like item to a
commonscat.
I believe we have clear policy on only sitelinking commons categories to category-like items, and commons galleries to article-like items; but there is currently confusion and unpredictability being caused because these relationships are not being enforced -- breaking scripts and queries.
It's time to fix this.
All best,
James.
Wikidata mailing list Wikidata@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikidata
In terms of navigation from article-items to Commons categories, the policy is very straightforward: set and use the P373 property.
This property also makes the inverse very straightforward, to go from a Commons category to a Wikidata item: use the script https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/User:TheDJ/wdcat.js or the tweaked version at https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/User:Jheald/wdcat.js which handles diacritics properly. These scripts automatically add a Reasonator link to the Commons category whenever there is a Wikidata article-like item pointing to it with a P373.
What we have at the moment is the worst of all worlds -- namely inconsistency which is getting worse.
As a result people don't know what to do, and they are not setting the P373 property -- with the result that scripts and queries don't find the connections that they should.
What we need is clarity and systematic consistency. Then it is an easy step to adjust the user-presentation to do the right thing.
-- James.
On 27/08/2015 14:03, Romaine Wiki wrote:
No we have not a clear policy on only linking sitelinks to categories if the item itself is about a category. So not let's not break that.
You suggest to break down almost the complete navigational structure Commons has in relationship with Wikipedia, and makes it possible to find articles that are about the same subject as the category. Without it becomes almost impossible to identify a category on Commons to be related to an article in Wikipedia. Sorry, but your proposal is insane and making the navigational situation a thousand times worse. And does it make anything better? No, totally not. Only the opposite: worse.
Wikidata is currently heavily used to connect categories on Commons to articles on Wikipedia. This so that interwikilinks are shown on the category on Commons to the related Wikipedia article. This for navigational purposes but also to uniquely identify categories on Commons to articles on Wikipedia and items on Wikidata.
How nice Commons galleries are giving an overview, they are crap in speaking of navigational purposes. For every subject a category on Commons is created and used and the Commons categories form the backbone to media categories.
It has been pointed out for a long time that the linking situation on Commons is problematic and this is a software issue, not a user side issue. This consists out of:
- There can only be added one sitelink to an item.
- If no sitelink added (but only added as property), a Commons category
can't show the interwikilinks.
- If a category and an article on Wikipedia/etc exist for a subject, only
one of them can be shown on the Commons category.
The annoying part is that some large wikis, especially the English Wikipedia, creates too many categories that are not created on other Wikipedias. This causes that categories on Commons are only linked to a category on Wikipedia, which is useless for most other wikis and on Commons we miss an interwikilink to the related article.
A gallery on Commons is a great way as alternative to show images, but is not suitable for navigational purposes, as that requires a much higher coverage and being a backbone everything relies on. On Commons only categories have that function. A counter proposal makes more sense: no Commons galleries as sitelinks any more and having Commons galleries only as property added.
But this only solves a part of the problem: on Commons I would like to see somehow that both the related category as the related article are shown. Example: on the Commons category for a specific country both the country category on Wikipedia is linked as the article on Wikipedia is linked.
Something I have been wondering about for a long time is why there are 2 places on an item where a Commonscat is added. I understand the development and technical behind it, but this should not be needed.
So the developers of Wikidata should try to find a way to show both groups of interwikilinks on categories on Commons.
As long as this is not resolved in software, this problem of 2 items both strongly related to a Commons category keeps an issue.
Romaine
2015-08-27 11:29 GMT+02:00 James Heald j.heald@ucl.ac.uk:
A few days ago I made the following post to Project Chat, looking at how people are linking from Wikidata items to Commons categories and galleries compared to a year ago, that some people on the list may have seen, which has now been archived:
https://www.wikidata.org/wiki/Wikidata:Project_chat/Archive/2015/08#Trends_i...
A couple of headlines:
- Category <-> commonscat identifications :
** There was a net increase of 61,784 Commons categories that can now be identified with category-like items, to 323,825 Commons categories in all
** 96.4% of category <-> commonscat identifications (312,266 items) now have sitelinks. This represents a rise in sitelinks (60,463 items) amounting to 97.8% of the increase in identifications
** 80.0% of category <-> commonscat identifications (259,164 items) now have P373 statements. This represents a rise in P373 statements (8,774 items) amounting to 14.2% of the increase in identifications
- Article <-> commonscat identifications :
** There was a net increase of 176,382 Commons categories that can now be identified with article-like items, to 884,439 Commons categories in all
** 23.4% of article <-> commonscat identifications (207,494 items) now have (deprecated) sitelinks. This represents a rise in sitelinks (112,595 items) amounting to 63.8% of the increase in identifications.
** 91.3% of article <-> commonscat identifications (807,776 items) now have P373 statements. This represents a rise in P373 statements (110,727 items) amounting to 62.8% of the increase in identifications
- In addition, a recent RfC showed considerable confusion as to what
actually was the current operational Wikidata policy on sitelinks to Commons:
https://www.wikidata.org/wiki/Wikidata:Requests_for_comment/Category_commons...
In view of the trends above; and the need for predictability and consistency for queries and templates and scripts to depend on; and particularly in view of the apparent confusion as to what the operational policy currently actually is, can I suggest that the time has come for a bot to monitor all new sitelinks to Commons categories,
- adding a corresponding P373 statement if there is not one already, and
- removing the sitelink if it is from an article-like item to a
commonscat.
I believe we have clear policy on only sitelinking commons categories to category-like items, and commons galleries to article-like items; but there is currently confusion and unpredictability being caused because these relationships are not being enforced -- breaking scripts and queries.
It's time to fix this.
All best,
James.
Wikidata mailing list Wikidata@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikidata
Wikidata mailing list Wikidata@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikidata
Gallery is dumb and it sucks, nobody should sitelink to gallery. Just use category and never ever link to gallery.
You expect to find information about the photo on Commons gallery? Then you will find most of the galleries are abandoned or out of date like the most recent image being like photos in 2008 or 2009. Commons' core, fundamental structure of maintaining image list is category, not gallery. Wikidata ignores this Commons' fact by trying to enforce ridiculous rules like this.
ps. Can I get the link for
In terms of navigation from article-items to Commons categories, the
policy is very straightforward: set and use the P373 property.
this comment's consensus? I have been away for a while and don't have idea about this. I remember the controversy related this while I was active, which means the policy isn't obviously straightforward for others.
-- revi https://www.wikidata.org/wiki/User:-revi https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/User:-revi https://revi.me -- Sent from Android -- 2015. 8. 28. 오전 2:28에 "James Heald" j.heald@ucl.ac.uk님이 작성:
In terms of navigation from article-items to Commons categories, the
policy is very straightforward: set and use the P373 property.
This property also makes the inverse very straightforward, to go from a
Commons category to a Wikidata item: use the script
https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/User:TheDJ/wdcat.js
or the tweaked version at https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/User:Jheald/wdcat.js which handles diacritics properly. These scripts automatically add a
Reasonator link to the Commons category whenever there is a Wikidata article-like item pointing to it with a P373.
What we have at the moment is the worst of all worlds -- namely
inconsistency which is getting worse.
As a result people don't know what to do, and they are not setting the
P373 property -- with the result that scripts and queries don't find the connections that they should.
What we need is clarity and systematic consistency. Then it is an easy
step to adjust the user-presentation to do the right thing.
-- James.
On 27/08/2015 14:03, Romaine Wiki wrote:
No we have not a clear policy on only linking sitelinks to categories if the item itself is about a category. So not let's not break that.
You suggest to break down almost the complete navigational structure Commons has in relationship with Wikipedia, and makes it possible to find articles that are about the same subject as the category. Without it becomes almost impossible to identify a category on Commons to be related to an article in Wikipedia. Sorry, but your proposal is insane and making the navigational situation
a
thousand times worse. And does it make anything better? No, totally not. Only the opposite: worse.
Wikidata is currently heavily used to connect categories on Commons to articles on Wikipedia. This so that interwikilinks are shown on the category on Commons to the related Wikipedia article. This for
navigational
purposes but also to uniquely identify categories on Commons to articles
on
Wikipedia and items on Wikidata.
How nice Commons galleries are giving an overview, they are crap in speaking of navigational purposes. For every subject a category on
Commons
is created and used and the Commons categories form the backbone to media categories.
It has been pointed out for a long time that the linking situation on Commons is problematic and this is a software issue, not a user side
issue.
This consists out of:
- There can only be added one sitelink to an item.
- If no sitelink added (but only added as property), a Commons category
can't show the interwikilinks.
- If a category and an article on Wikipedia/etc exist for a subject, only
one of them can be shown on the Commons category.
The annoying part is that some large wikis, especially the English Wikipedia, creates too many categories that are not created on other Wikipedias. This causes that categories on Commons are only linked to a category on Wikipedia, which is useless for most other wikis and on
Commons
we miss an interwikilink to the related article.
A gallery on Commons is a great way as alternative to show images, but is not suitable for navigational purposes, as that requires a much higher coverage and being a backbone everything relies on. On Commons only categories have that function. A counter proposal makes more sense: no Commons galleries as sitelinks any more and having Commons galleries only as property added.
But this only solves a part of the problem: on Commons I would like to
see
somehow that both the related category as the related article are shown. Example: on the Commons category for a specific country both the country category on Wikipedia is linked as the article on Wikipedia is linked.
Something I have been wondering about for a long time is why there are 2 places on an item where a Commonscat is added. I understand the
development
and technical behind it, but this should not be needed.
So the developers of Wikidata should try to find a way to show both
groups
of interwikilinks on categories on Commons.
As long as this is not resolved in software, this problem of 2 items both strongly related to a Commons category keeps an issue.
Romaine
2015-08-27 11:29 GMT+02:00 James Heald j.heald@ucl.ac.uk:
A few days ago I made the following post to Project Chat, looking at how people are linking from Wikidata items to Commons categories and
galleries
compared to a year ago, that some people on the list may have seen,
which
has now been archived:
https://www.wikidata.org/wiki/Wikidata:Project_chat/Archive/2015/08#Trends_i...
A couple of headlines:
- Category <-> commonscat identifications :
** There was a net increase of 61,784 Commons categories that can now be identified with category-like items, to 323,825 Commons categories in
all
** 96.4% of category <-> commonscat identifications (312,266 items) now have sitelinks. This represents a rise in sitelinks (60,463 items) amounting to 97.8% of the increase in identifications
** 80.0% of category <-> commonscat identifications (259,164 items) now have P373 statements. This represents a rise in P373 statements (8,774 items) amounting to 14.2% of the increase in identifications
- Article <-> commonscat identifications :
** There was a net increase of 176,382 Commons categories that can now
be
identified with article-like items, to 884,439 Commons categories in all
** 23.4% of article <-> commonscat identifications (207,494 items) now have (deprecated) sitelinks. This represents a rise in sitelinks
(112,595
items) amounting to 63.8% of the increase in identifications.
** 91.3% of article <-> commonscat identifications (807,776 items) now have P373 statements. This represents a rise in P373 statements (110,727 items) amounting to 62.8% of the increase in identifications
- In addition, a recent RfC showed considerable confusion as to what
actually was the current operational Wikidata policy on sitelinks to Commons:
https://www.wikidata.org/wiki/Wikidata:Requests_for_comment/Category_commons...
In view of the trends above; and the need for predictability and consistency for queries and templates and scripts to depend on; and particularly in view of the apparent confusion as to what the
operational
policy currently actually is, can I suggest that the time has come for a bot to monitor all new sitelinks to Commons categories,
- adding a corresponding P373 statement if there is not one already,
and
- removing the sitelink if it is from an article-like item to a
commonscat.
I believe we have clear policy on only sitelinking commons categories to category-like items, and commons galleries to article-like items; but
there
is currently confusion and unpredictability being caused because these relationships are not being enforced -- breaking scripts and queries.
It's time to fix this.
All best,
James.
Wikidata mailing list Wikidata@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikidata
Wikidata mailing list Wikidata@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikidata
Wikidata mailing list Wikidata@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikidata
What we need is clarity and systematic consistency. Then it is an easy
step to adjust the user-presentation to do the right thing.
The only way to get that is a software change. Your proposal might bring "systematic consistency" but also breaks almost the complete navigational structure from Commons to elsewhere. If you think this as an easy step, you have thought to simple as you miss an import part. Demolishing almost the complete navigational structure is certainly not the right thing.
And I agree completely with what Revi says:
Wikidata ignores this Commons' fact by trying to enforce ridiculous rules
like this.
2015-08-27 19:26 GMT+02:00 James Heald j.heald@ucl.ac.uk:
In terms of navigation from article-items to Commons categories, the policy is very straightforward: set and use the P373 property.
This property also makes the inverse very straightforward, to go from a Commons category to a Wikidata item: use the script https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/User:TheDJ/wdcat.js or the tweaked version at https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/User:Jheald/wdcat.js which handles diacritics properly. These scripts automatically add a Reasonator link to the Commons category whenever there is a Wikidata article-like item pointing to it with a P373.
What we have at the moment is the worst of all worlds -- namely inconsistency which is getting worse.
As a result people don't know what to do, and they are not setting the P373 property -- with the result that scripts and queries don't find the connections that they should.
What we need is clarity and systematic consistency. Then it is an easy step to adjust the user-presentation to do the right thing.
-- James.
On 27/08/2015 14:03, Romaine Wiki wrote:
No we have not a clear policy on only linking sitelinks to categories if the item itself is about a category. So not let's not break that.
You suggest to break down almost the complete navigational structure Commons has in relationship with Wikipedia, and makes it possible to find articles that are about the same subject as the category. Without it becomes almost impossible to identify a category on Commons to be related to an article in Wikipedia. Sorry, but your proposal is insane and making the navigational situation a thousand times worse. And does it make anything better? No, totally not. Only the opposite: worse.
Wikidata is currently heavily used to connect categories on Commons to articles on Wikipedia. This so that interwikilinks are shown on the category on Commons to the related Wikipedia article. This for navigational purposes but also to uniquely identify categories on Commons to articles on Wikipedia and items on Wikidata.
How nice Commons galleries are giving an overview, they are crap in speaking of navigational purposes. For every subject a category on Commons is created and used and the Commons categories form the backbone to media categories.
It has been pointed out for a long time that the linking situation on Commons is problematic and this is a software issue, not a user side issue. This consists out of:
- There can only be added one sitelink to an item.
- If no sitelink added (but only added as property), a Commons category
can't show the interwikilinks.
- If a category and an article on Wikipedia/etc exist for a subject, only
one of them can be shown on the Commons category.
The annoying part is that some large wikis, especially the English Wikipedia, creates too many categories that are not created on other Wikipedias. This causes that categories on Commons are only linked to a category on Wikipedia, which is useless for most other wikis and on Commons we miss an interwikilink to the related article.
A gallery on Commons is a great way as alternative to show images, but is not suitable for navigational purposes, as that requires a much higher coverage and being a backbone everything relies on. On Commons only categories have that function. A counter proposal makes more sense: no Commons galleries as sitelinks any more and having Commons galleries only as property added.
But this only solves a part of the problem: on Commons I would like to see somehow that both the related category as the related article are shown. Example: on the Commons category for a specific country both the country category on Wikipedia is linked as the article on Wikipedia is linked.
Something I have been wondering about for a long time is why there are 2 places on an item where a Commonscat is added. I understand the development and technical behind it, but this should not be needed.
So the developers of Wikidata should try to find a way to show both groups of interwikilinks on categories on Commons.
As long as this is not resolved in software, this problem of 2 items both strongly related to a Commons category keeps an issue.
Romaine
2015-08-27 11:29 GMT+02:00 James Heald j.heald@ucl.ac.uk:
A few days ago I made the following post to Project Chat, looking at how
people are linking from Wikidata items to Commons categories and galleries compared to a year ago, that some people on the list may have seen, which has now been archived:
https://www.wikidata.org/wiki/Wikidata:Project_chat/Archive/2015/08#Trends_i...
A couple of headlines:
- Category <-> commonscat identifications :
** There was a net increase of 61,784 Commons categories that can now be identified with category-like items, to 323,825 Commons categories in all
** 96.4% of category <-> commonscat identifications (312,266 items) now have sitelinks. This represents a rise in sitelinks (60,463 items) amounting to 97.8% of the increase in identifications
** 80.0% of category <-> commonscat identifications (259,164 items) now have P373 statements. This represents a rise in P373 statements (8,774 items) amounting to 14.2% of the increase in identifications
- Article <-> commonscat identifications :
** There was a net increase of 176,382 Commons categories that can now be identified with article-like items, to 884,439 Commons categories in all
** 23.4% of article <-> commonscat identifications (207,494 items) now have (deprecated) sitelinks. This represents a rise in sitelinks (112,595 items) amounting to 63.8% of the increase in identifications.
** 91.3% of article <-> commonscat identifications (807,776 items) now have P373 statements. This represents a rise in P373 statements (110,727 items) amounting to 62.8% of the increase in identifications
- In addition, a recent RfC showed considerable confusion as to what
actually was the current operational Wikidata policy on sitelinks to Commons:
https://www.wikidata.org/wiki/Wikidata:Requests_for_comment/Category_commons...
In view of the trends above; and the need for predictability and consistency for queries and templates and scripts to depend on; and particularly in view of the apparent confusion as to what the operational policy currently actually is, can I suggest that the time has come for a bot to monitor all new sitelinks to Commons categories,
- adding a corresponding P373 statement if there is not one already, and
- removing the sitelink if it is from an article-like item to a
commonscat.
I believe we have clear policy on only sitelinking commons categories to category-like items, and commons galleries to article-like items; but there is currently confusion and unpredictability being caused because these relationships are not being enforced -- breaking scripts and queries.
It's time to fix this.
All best,
James.
Wikidata mailing list Wikidata@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikidata
Wikidata mailing list Wikidata@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikidata
Wikidata mailing list Wikidata@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikidata
2015-08-28 12:09 GMT+02:00 Romaine Wiki romaine.wiki@gmail.com:
And I agree completely with what Revi says:
Wikidata ignores this Commons' fact by trying to enforce ridiculous rules like this.
It's not such a ridiculous rule, if you think of the rationale behind it: if gallery = ns0 and category = ns2, linking ns0 <--> ns2 in the same item is IMHO not a rational thing to do (not even for Wikinews if you ask me, but I'm digressing).
So the *practical* problem that we have to address is the list of links in the left column. We really don't have any possibilty to exploit P373 in any way, not even with a .js, to fix this?
L.
People never use gallery to browse image. They just use Category. It is rather irrationale thing to make people do more work to find the maintained list of Commons images.
Accept the fact Commons does not actively use Gallery on our image structure system. Category is the only system Commons use.
And the ability to put more than two sitelink from one wiki was wanted since Sept 2013 (almost 2 years ago, IIRC.). I remember participating the RfC regarding this but cannot find it right now...
-- revi https://revi.me -- Sent from Android -- 2015. 8. 29. 오전 12:11에 "Luca Martinelli" martinelliluca@gmail.com님이 작성:
2015-08-28 12:09 GMT+02:00 Romaine Wiki romaine.wiki@gmail.com:
And I agree completely with what Revi says:
Wikidata ignores this Commons' fact by trying to enforce ridiculous
rules
like this.
It's not such a ridiculous rule, if you think of the rationale behind it: if gallery = ns0 and category = ns2, linking ns0 <--> ns2 in the same item is IMHO not a rational thing to do (not even for Wikinews if you ask me, but I'm digressing).
So the *practical* problem that we have to address is the list of links in the left column. We really don't have any possibilty to exploit P373 in any way, not even with a .js, to fix this?
L.
Wikidata mailing list Wikidata@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikidata
As I wrote before, that thought is too simple. You only say that a zero belongs to a zero, and a two belongs to a two, then you only describe the type of page, but you ignore the subject of a page. That subject matters much more than the namespace number.
Especially Wikinews is a wrong example, as most categories on Commons do not have a 1 to 1 relationship with Commons. However, articles on Wikipedia do have mostly a 1 on 1 relationship with categories on Commons.
Romaine
2015-08-28 17:09 GMT+02:00 Luca Martinelli martinelliluca@gmail.com:
2015-08-28 12:09 GMT+02:00 Romaine Wiki romaine.wiki@gmail.com:
And I agree completely with what Revi says:
Wikidata ignores this Commons' fact by trying to enforce ridiculous
rules
like this.
It's not such a ridiculous rule, if you think of the rationale behind it: if gallery = ns0 and category = ns2, linking ns0 <--> ns2 in the same item is IMHO not a rational thing to do (not even for Wikinews if you ask me, but I'm digressing).
So the *practical* problem that we have to address is the list of links in the left column. We really don't have any possibilty to exploit P373 in any way, not even with a .js, to fix this?
L.
Wikidata mailing list Wikidata@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikidata
I think this subject should also be discussed on the Commons mailing list, as this plan is to demolish the navigational structure of Commons.
2015-08-27 15:03 GMT+02:00 Romaine Wiki romaine.wiki@gmail.com:
No we have not a clear policy on only linking sitelinks to categories if the item itself is about a category. So not let's not break that.
You suggest to break down almost the complete navigational structure Commons has in relationship with Wikipedia, and makes it possible to find articles that are about the same subject as the category. Without it becomes almost impossible to identify a category on Commons to be related to an article in Wikipedia. Sorry, but your proposal is insane and making the navigational situation a thousand times worse. And does it make anything better? No, totally not. Only the opposite: worse.
Wikidata is currently heavily used to connect categories on Commons to articles on Wikipedia. This so that interwikilinks are shown on the category on Commons to the related Wikipedia article. This for navigational purposes but also to uniquely identify categories on Commons to articles on Wikipedia and items on Wikidata.
How nice Commons galleries are giving an overview, they are crap in speaking of navigational purposes. For every subject a category on Commons is created and used and the Commons categories form the backbone to media categories.
It has been pointed out for a long time that the linking situation on Commons is problematic and this is a software issue, not a user side issue. This consists out of:
- There can only be added one sitelink to an item.
- If no sitelink added (but only added as property), a Commons category
can't show the interwikilinks.
- If a category and an article on Wikipedia/etc exist for a subject, only
one of them can be shown on the Commons category.
The annoying part is that some large wikis, especially the English Wikipedia, creates too many categories that are not created on other Wikipedias. This causes that categories on Commons are only linked to a category on Wikipedia, which is useless for most other wikis and on Commons we miss an interwikilink to the related article.
A gallery on Commons is a great way as alternative to show images, but is not suitable for navigational purposes, as that requires a much higher coverage and being a backbone everything relies on. On Commons only categories have that function. A counter proposal makes more sense: no Commons galleries as sitelinks any more and having Commons galleries only as property added.
But this only solves a part of the problem: on Commons I would like to see somehow that both the related category as the related article are shown. Example: on the Commons category for a specific country both the country category on Wikipedia is linked as the article on Wikipedia is linked.
Something I have been wondering about for a long time is why there are 2 places on an item where a Commonscat is added. I understand the development and technical behind it, but this should not be needed.
So the developers of Wikidata should try to find a way to show both groups of interwikilinks on categories on Commons.
As long as this is not resolved in software, this problem of 2 items both strongly related to a Commons category keeps an issue.
Romaine
2015-08-27 11:29 GMT+02:00 James Heald j.heald@ucl.ac.uk:
A few days ago I made the following post to Project Chat, looking at how people are linking from Wikidata items to Commons categories and galleries compared to a year ago, that some people on the list may have seen, which has now been archived:
https://www.wikidata.org/wiki/Wikidata:Project_chat/Archive/2015/08#Trends_i...
A couple of headlines:
- Category <-> commonscat identifications :
** There was a net increase of 61,784 Commons categories that can now be identified with category-like items, to 323,825 Commons categories in all
** 96.4% of category <-> commonscat identifications (312,266 items) now have sitelinks. This represents a rise in sitelinks (60,463 items) amounting to 97.8% of the increase in identifications
** 80.0% of category <-> commonscat identifications (259,164 items) now have P373 statements. This represents a rise in P373 statements (8,774 items) amounting to 14.2% of the increase in identifications
- Article <-> commonscat identifications :
** There was a net increase of 176,382 Commons categories that can now be identified with article-like items, to 884,439 Commons categories in all
** 23.4% of article <-> commonscat identifications (207,494 items) now have (deprecated) sitelinks. This represents a rise in sitelinks (112,595 items) amounting to 63.8% of the increase in identifications.
** 91.3% of article <-> commonscat identifications (807,776 items) now have P373 statements. This represents a rise in P373 statements (110,727 items) amounting to 62.8% of the increase in identifications
- In addition, a recent RfC showed considerable confusion as to what
actually was the current operational Wikidata policy on sitelinks to Commons:
https://www.wikidata.org/wiki/Wikidata:Requests_for_comment/Category_commons...
In view of the trends above; and the need for predictability and consistency for queries and templates and scripts to depend on; and particularly in view of the apparent confusion as to what the operational policy currently actually is, can I suggest that the time has come for a bot to monitor all new sitelinks to Commons categories,
- adding a corresponding P373 statement if there is not one already, and
- removing the sitelink if it is from an article-like item to a
commonscat.
I believe we have clear policy on only sitelinking commons categories to category-like items, and commons galleries to article-like items; but there is currently confusion and unpredictability being caused because these relationships are not being enforced -- breaking scripts and queries.
It's time to fix this.
All best,
James.
Wikidata mailing list Wikidata@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikidata
This is one reason I create the pahbricator request for Commons to have its own Site box rather than fall under "Other wiki's". That would allow us to link an item to its corresponding Gallery, Category, Creator or whatever. Right now we can only like to Commons category via the Other Wiki's and although we can link Galleries, Creator and the like as data items, they are not "linked" as site links.
Reguyla
On Fri, Aug 28, 2015 at 11:28 AM, Romaine Wiki romaine.wiki@gmail.com wrote:
I think this subject should also be discussed on the Commons mailing list, as this plan is to demolish the navigational structure of Commons.
2015-08-27 15:03 GMT+02:00 Romaine Wiki romaine.wiki@gmail.com:
No we have not a clear policy on only linking sitelinks to categories if the item itself is about a category. So not let's not break that.
You suggest to break down almost the complete navigational structure Commons has in relationship with Wikipedia, and makes it possible to find articles that are about the same subject as the category. Without it becomes almost impossible to identify a category on Commons to be related to an article in Wikipedia. Sorry, but your proposal is insane and making the navigational situation a thousand times worse. And does it make anything better? No, totally not. Only the opposite: worse.
Wikidata is currently heavily used to connect categories on Commons to articles on Wikipedia. This so that interwikilinks are shown on the category on Commons to the related Wikipedia article. This for navigational purposes but also to uniquely identify categories on Commons to articles on Wikipedia and items on Wikidata.
How nice Commons galleries are giving an overview, they are crap in speaking of navigational purposes. For every subject a category on Commons is created and used and the Commons categories form the backbone to media categories.
It has been pointed out for a long time that the linking situation on Commons is problematic and this is a software issue, not a user side issue. This consists out of:
- There can only be added one sitelink to an item.
- If no sitelink added (but only added as property), a Commons category
can't show the interwikilinks.
- If a category and an article on Wikipedia/etc exist for a subject, only
one of them can be shown on the Commons category.
The annoying part is that some large wikis, especially the English Wikipedia, creates too many categories that are not created on other Wikipedias. This causes that categories on Commons are only linked to a category on Wikipedia, which is useless for most other wikis and on Commons we miss an interwikilink to the related article.
A gallery on Commons is a great way as alternative to show images, but is not suitable for navigational purposes, as that requires a much higher coverage and being a backbone everything relies on. On Commons only categories have that function. A counter proposal makes more sense: no Commons galleries as sitelinks any more and having Commons galleries only as property added.
But this only solves a part of the problem: on Commons I would like to see somehow that both the related category as the related article are shown. Example: on the Commons category for a specific country both the country category on Wikipedia is linked as the article on Wikipedia is linked.
Something I have been wondering about for a long time is why there are 2 places on an item where a Commonscat is added. I understand the development and technical behind it, but this should not be needed.
So the developers of Wikidata should try to find a way to show both groups of interwikilinks on categories on Commons.
As long as this is not resolved in software, this problem of 2 items both strongly related to a Commons category keeps an issue.
Romaine
2015-08-27 11:29 GMT+02:00 James Heald j.heald@ucl.ac.uk:
A few days ago I made the following post to Project Chat, looking at how people are linking from Wikidata items to Commons categories and galleries compared to a year ago, that some people on the list may have seen, which has now been archived:
https://www.wikidata.org/wiki/Wikidata:Project_chat/Archive/2015/08#Trends_i...
A couple of headlines:
- Category <-> commonscat identifications :
** There was a net increase of 61,784 Commons categories that can now be identified with category-like items, to 323,825 Commons categories in all
** 96.4% of category <-> commonscat identifications (312,266 items) now have sitelinks. This represents a rise in sitelinks (60,463 items) amounting to 97.8% of the increase in identifications
** 80.0% of category <-> commonscat identifications (259,164 items) now have P373 statements. This represents a rise in P373 statements (8,774 items) amounting to 14.2% of the increase in identifications
- Article <-> commonscat identifications :
** There was a net increase of 176,382 Commons categories that can now be identified with article-like items, to 884,439 Commons categories in all
** 23.4% of article <-> commonscat identifications (207,494 items) now have (deprecated) sitelinks. This represents a rise in sitelinks (112,595 items) amounting to 63.8% of the increase in identifications.
** 91.3% of article <-> commonscat identifications (807,776 items) now have P373 statements. This represents a rise in P373 statements (110,727 items) amounting to 62.8% of the increase in identifications
- In addition, a recent RfC showed considerable confusion as to what
actually was the current operational Wikidata policy on sitelinks to Commons:
https://www.wikidata.org/wiki/Wikidata:Requests_for_comment/Category_commons...
In view of the trends above; and the need for predictability and consistency for queries and templates and scripts to depend on; and particularly in view of the apparent confusion as to what the operational policy currently actually is, can I suggest that the time has come for a bot to monitor all new sitelinks to Commons categories,
- adding a corresponding P373 statement if there is not one already, and
- removing the sitelink if it is from an article-like item to a
commonscat.
I believe we have clear policy on only sitelinking commons categories to category-like items, and commons galleries to article-like items; but there is currently confusion and unpredictability being caused because these relationships are not being enforced -- breaking scripts and queries.
It's time to fix this.
All best,
James.
Wikidata mailing list Wikidata@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikidata
Commons-l mailing list Commons-l@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/commons-l
On 28 Aug 2015, at 18:40, Reguyla reguyla@gmail.com wrote:
This is one reason I create the pahbricator request for Commons to have its own Site box rather than fall under "Other wiki's". That would allow us to link an item to its corresponding Gallery, Category, Creator or whatever. Right now we can only like to Commons category via the Other Wiki's and although we can link Galleries, Creator and the like as data items, they are not "linked" as site links.
This would be very useful - I think this would be a good way forward that would avoid the whole 'page vs. category' debate. The Phabricator ticket is at: https://phabricator.wikimedia.org/T102417
Thanks, Mike