I don't understand why you can't make an item for each character or each person in a band. As long as you have a valid reference (IMDb? Book? out of my league here) you can make an item for anything
On Thu, Oct 16, 2014 at 12:45 PM, Jan Dudík jan.dudik@gmail.com wrote:
There is one big field, where redirects make sense: lists (of characters) or members of bands
*Rob Bourdon (Q19205) have article in 38 languages. There is also part of article de:Linkin_Park, which is about him and [[de:Rob Bourdon]] is redirect. *Character X from tv series Y is not notable enough to have separate article, but it should have own item on wikidata. And there is article about him in some small wiki. When you search , you found that there is one article, but fifteen redirects to section (List of Y characters#X) *Fred Weasley (Q13359612) have one sitelink (to redirect), but informations are in en, cs, fr, es, it, pt, pl, da and others too. But when I want to find relevant articles, I must try each language separate. With alowed redirects, I find it.
JAnD
2014-10-16 11:06 GMT+02:00 Jane Darnell jane023@gmail.com:
With a view to supporting mobile, why bundle concepts needlessly into
large
articles? Why not split them out and use the typical Wikipedia blue link methodology to link them together? Some of the English Wikipedia articles are very unwieldy on mobile and you need to scroll through lots of stuff
to
get the information you are looking for. In the case you are describing however, I find the article rather short and I can't even see any
reference
to the occupation of hatmaker at all unless you are referring to a list
of
notable hatters and milliners (which also seems rather short).
On Thu, Oct 16, 2014 at 10:40 AM, James Heald j.heald@ucl.ac.uk wrote:
We have the relevant information on :en in "hatmaking".
Why create a stub? Why require the duplication?
Surely it is for client wikis to decide how they want to treat topics, either in a big omnibus article, or in a lot of little articles -- that
is a
decision for them.
But we should be helping readers moving from one language to another to find the nearest equivalent in that language -- no matter whether in
that
language it is a small part of a large article, or a separate article
in its
own right.
-- James.
On 16/10/2014 09:29, Jane Darnell wrote:
James, I totally agree with Gerard and I totally disagree with you. The fact that the English Wikipedia does not have an article on "hatmaker" is not something that Wikidata should support, and the energy you are wasting with your talk about redirects could better be spent on making a stub for "hatmaker" on the English wikipedia. Jane
On Thu, Oct 16, 2014 at 9:34 AM, James Heald j.heald@ucl.ac.uk
wrote:
I am sorry, Gerard, you seem to have fundamentally misunderstood what
I
am saying.
To be clearer:
- Noting that a link goes to a redirect is a feature of the *sitelink*
not the item.
- It is no more "Wikipedia centric" than noting that a link goes to a
featured article in some language, or any other badge.
I'm not proposing items be introduced for "new things that do not
exist"
Let's take an example, from Project Chat recently.
- "Hatmaking" is a real-world concept that exists. We have an article
on it in English Wikipedia: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hatmaking https://www.wikidata.org/wiki/Q663375
- "Hatmaker" is a real-world concept that exists. We have an article
on it on lots of Wikipedias. https://www.wikidata.org/wiki/Q18199649
The two concepts are not the same. One is a skill, the other is an occupation. They have a P425 / P na relationship.
It therefore would not make any sense to add "Hatmaking" as a label to the "Hatmaker" item.
At the moment, there is no sitelink to :en: defined for "Hatmaker".
What would make sense would be to sitelink to the redirect page https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Hatmaker&redirect=no with a badge, noting that this was a sitelink to a redirect page.
At the moment, there is no sitelink to wikis other than :en: defined
for
"Hatmaking"
What would make sense would be to create redirects on these wikis, linking to their articles on "Hatmaker", and then add sitelinks to the "Hatmaking" item, pointing to these redirects in each of the languages.
To give another example:
On Commons, we have a creator page for the engraver Daniel Havell, https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/Creator:Daniel_Havell which ought to be made to draw from a Wikidata item for the engraver. (cf https://www.wikidata.org/wiki/Template:Creator/wrapper/test for tests)
On en-wiki, there is no separate article for Daniel Havell. Instead there is a redirect,
https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Daniel_Havell&
redirect=no, which points to a section of an article on the Havell family:
https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Havell_family#Daniel_Havell
Wikidata should have an item on Daniel Havell, which points to this redirect.
That way, when the Creator template on Commons wants a link target on :enwiki, the Wikidata item can supply it.
As I said, Gerard, I think you misunderstood what I was talking about.
I hope it is clearer and makes more sense to you now.
All best,
James.
On 16/10/2014 06:15, Gerard Meijssen wrote:
Hoi, I seriously fail to see how an example how Wikidata can be abused is
a
good thing. Redirects are imho seriously stupid. They are utterly
Wikipedia
centric and they introduce new things that do not exist.
- a redirect page to three pages is also called an
disambiguation
page.. We do support them. They are not redirects. - when a redirect page refers to an article by another name, it only takes a label to add the needed link to the subject
Seriously WHY ARE WE EVEN TALKING ABOUT THIS? Thanks, GerardM
On 14 October 2014 23:22, James Heald j.heald@ucl.ac.uk wrote:
Creating sitelinks to redirects: > > > As I understand it, the classic workaround for this is to > * go to client wiki, > * edit the page temporarily so that it is not a redirect > * add a sitelink > * edit the page again to turn it back into a redirect. > > Thus, at least as I understand it, there is no overwhelming
technical
> barrier to creating a sitelink to a redirect. > > > Looking back through the archives of Project Chat, it seems to be a > perennial thing that we ought to permit sitelinks to redirects, eg > most > recently at > > https://www.wikidata.org/wiki/Wikidata:Project_chat#Should_ > all_occupations_be_separate_items_from_their_skills.3F > > which led to Kaldari filing Bugzilla: 71859 > > > But I'm not quite sure exactly what he wants solved, if sitelinks to > redirects are /already/ possible. (Albeit requiring the slightly > roundabout process above). > > > Perhaps what is needed is just a concerted RfC, to confirm once and > for > all that it is indeed the community view that such sitelinks are > useful, > and should be created. > > > But there are a couple of things it would be nice to have, to
confirm
> the > practice: > * A badge (eg the letter R on a red disc) to indicate that the > sitelink > to language xx is linking to a redirect, not a primary article. > * On an item, a new property "redirected to", taking another item
as
> its > object, and the identity of the wiki as a qualifier. > > > After that, we should go out creating this redirects on client wikis > en > masse, and site-linking them. > > This would solve a huge number of issues we currently have, where
wiki
> A > has lots of little articles, whereas wiki B has the same content all > in > sections of one article; or where wiki A and wiki B have chosen > different > primary items for their treatment of a field. (For example: the > profession > 'hatmaker' or the activity 'hatmaking'). > > > Allowing and encouraging sitelinks to redirect is the key to
keeping a
> clean item structure on Wikidata, while still connecting readers to > the > most relevant pages in their preferred alternative languages. > > -- James. > > > > On 14/10/2014 21:00, Jane Darnell wrote: > > nope >> >> >> On Tue, Oct 14, 2014 at 6:23 PM, Smolenski Nikola <
smolensk@eunet.rs>
>> wrote: >> >> Citiranje Jane Darnell jane023@gmail.com: >> >>> >>> 2) There is no way of making an interwikilink for a redirect,
and
>>> the >>>> >>>> German Wikipedia's "afrikanische Pflaume" is currently a redirect >>>> to >>>> "Prunus" >>>> >>>> >>> You should still be able to make an interwiki link for a redirect >>> the >>> old >>> way, >>> are you not? >>> >>>
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