On Thu, Aug 20, 2009 at 6:06 AM, Robert Rohde<rarohde(a)gmail.com> wrote: [snip] Although you don't actually answer that question, you answer a different question: [snip] Which is interesting too, but part of the problem with calling this a measure of vandalism is that it isn't really, and we don't really have a good handle on how solid an approximation it is beyond gut feelings and arm-waving. The study of Wikipedia activity is a new area of research, not something that has been studied for decades. Not only do we not know many things about Wikipedia, but we don't know many things about how to know things about Wikipedia. There must be ways to get a better understanding, but we many not know of them and the ones we do know of are not always used. For example, we could increase our confidence in this type of proxy-measure by taking a random subset of that data and having humans classify it based on some agreed-on established criteria. By performing the review process many times we could get a handle on the typical error of both the proxy-metric and the meta-review. The risk here is that people will misunderstand these shorthand metrics as the real-deal and the risk is increased when we encourage it by using language which suggests that the simplistic understanding is the correct one. IMO, highly uncertain and/or outright wrong information is worse than not knowing when you aren't aware of the reliability of the information. We can't control how the press chooses to report on research, but when we actively encourage misunderstandings by playing up the significance or generality of our research our behaviour is unethical. Vigilance is required. This risk of misinformation is increased many-fold in comparative analysis, where factors like time are plotted against indicators because we often miss confounding variables (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Confounding). Stepping away from your review for a moment, because it wasn't primarily a comparative one, I'd like to point out some general points: For example, If research finds that edits are more frequently reverted over time is this because there has been a change in the revision decision process or have articles become better and more complete over time and have edits to long and high quality articles always been more likely to be reverted? Both are probably true, but how does the contribution break down? There are many other possibly significant confounding variables. Probably many more than any of us have thought of yet. I've always been of the school of thought that we do research to produce understanding, not just generate numbers and "Wikipedia becomes more complete over time, less work for new people to do" is a pretty different understanding from "Wikipedia increasing hostile towards new contributors" are pretty different understandings but both may be supported by the same data at least until you've controlled for many factors. Another example— because of the scale of Wikipedia we must resort to proxy-metrics. We can't directly measure vandalism, but we can measure how often someone adds "is gay" over time. Proxy-metrics are powerful tools but can be misleading. If we're trying to automatically identify vandalism for a study (either to include it or exclude it) we have the risk that the vandals are adapting to automatic identification: If you were using "is gay" as a measure of vandalism over time you might conclude that vandalism is decreasing when in reality "cluebot" is performing the same kind of analysis for its automatic vandalism suppression and the vandals have responded by vandalizing in forms that can't be automatically identified, such as by changing dates to incorrect values. Or, keeping the goal of understanding in mind, sometimes the measurements can all be right but a lack of care and consideration can still cause people to draw the wrong conclusions. For example, English Wikipedia has adopted a much stronger policy about citations in articles about living people than it once had. It is *intentionally* more difficult to contribute to those articles especially for new contributors who do not know the rules then it once was. Going back to your simple study now: The analysis of vandalism duration and its impact on readers makes an assumption about readership which we know to be invalid. You're assuming a uniform distribution of readership: That readers are just as likely to read any random article. But we know that the actual readership follows a power-law (long-tail) distribution. Because of the failure to consider traffic levels we can't draw conclusions on how much vandalism readers are actually exposed to. Interestingly— you've found a power-law distribution in vandalism lifetime. Is it possible that readership and vandalism life are correlated, that more widely read articles tend to get reverted faster? That doesn't sound unreasonable to me and if it's true it means that readers are exposed to far less vandalism than a uniform model would suggest. In any case— I don't say any of this to criticize the mechanics of your work. I'm able to point these things out because you were clear about what you measured, more so than some other analysis has been (including my own, at times). But I do think that it's important that we are careful to not describe our work in ways that will cause laymen to over-generalize and that we keep in mind that the most readers are not researchers, and that they desperately want the kind of pat open-and-shut answers that we won't be able to even begin providing until the study of Wikipedia is far better understood. Likewise, users of Wikipedia research should be forewarned that researchers are apt to use simple words like "vandalism" when they are really measuring something far more specific and that surprising correlations between what is actually being measured and the things it is being measured against may produce misleading conclusions. Cheers!