On 2007.10.08 12:17:52 -0700, Ray Saintonge saintonge@telus.net scribbled 70 lines:
Gwern Branwen wrote:
You old-timers, cast your minds back to 2003/2004 (everyone who joined after that, close your eyes and try to fake it).
You are reading an interesting or important article when something suddenly strikes you as odd and untoward. Let's stipulate that you read the entire article and you are yet unsatisfied. Being a good Wikipedian, you consider correcting this apparent error - how could the Battle of New Orleans have been the last battle of the War of 1812 when the treaty was signed long before it took place? shall be your query, say. And being a good Wikipedian, you happened to notice that the talk page was blue.
Don't you mean that the link to the talk page is blue? For me the talk page itself is still yellow.
Yes, that's what I meant.
Now let's just pause a second. These days, why would anyone click on the talk page link? Essentially every talk page has been created just because of bots going around adding assessment tags and project banners and all that bric-a-brac. People are slowly being trained to ignore talk pages - the signal to noise ratio used to be 1/0, as talk pages *always* had something a human had written. It might not be relevant to your current question, it might be on an entirely different issue (the exact number of casaulties as this old NY Times copy handed down in my family claims 2 less than does this Encyclopedia Britannica article, &etc..), but quite often it was quite germane (Yo peeps leave the date alone, remember the crazy-ass communication delays back then) or at least interesting.
This is a really great example of where the effects of the techy side have had a strongly destructive effect on the social side. The key effect is that these garbage templates discourage people from taking their edit wars to the talk page. Problems with any subtlety at all are converted to simple black/white or yes/no arguments We need to remember that talk pages were there from the beginning to provide an opportunity to work out problems.
Absolutely. "To technology! the cause of - and solution to - all of life's problems."
I don't think there's really anyway to solve this. Nobody is really advocating putting that kind of metadata into the article, which would be a herculean and sisyphean task; nobody is seriously talking about associating a second page with articles (one for discussion and the other for metadata).
It does little good to belittle the idea of a separate metadata page as not serious when you don't even give arguemnts about why it's such a bad idea.
It's not necessarily a bad idea, it's just that if we're going to discuss changes to ameliorate this situation, let's focus on ones which actually have a chance of getting implement. It's a fact of life here at En that large-scale technical changes, however awesome they may be, usually don't happen and if they do it takes *forever* (because of many factors ranging from inertia to not wanting to clean up the ensuing mess to various developer issues to cruft, etc. etc.). This is true even for really really important things like SUl, or - actually, this might be going a little bit too far back here, but does anyone else remember Bug 550? That was an incredibly annoying limitation which took years to change.
Anyway, the essential point is that user-run bots and scripts got us into this mess and they seem to represent the most realistic way out.
But I think in a certain modest way there is a solution. Just display the talk automatically. At the bottom is a good place. Think about it: if it's some worthless banners and templates, you simply stop reading/scrolling-down at the categories - but if there is a lot left, then you continue reading and merely skip over the templates. The additional load time is negligible, it doesn't mess anything up, etc. And it's a relatively simple addition to one's monobook.js: https://secure.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/wiki/Wikipedia:WikiProject_User_scripts/Requests#Automatically_view_talk_page_discussion_while_looking_at_article. I'm not suggesting it be put into the site-wide file, but I think it could be a step towards a programmatic solution for annoyed editors.
Not everybody wants to see the talk page, or even to load such a long page. We already try to keep the article sizes down for the benefit of people with slow browsers. An active talk page can be very, very long, and can even have many archive pages. This idea is not much different from sticking the metadata on the article page itself.
Well, I think browsers would usually begin rendering the frame containing the talk page after the article proper.
If the idea had any sort of usefulness it would need to be opt-in, because we can't expect everybody to be able to make sense of monobook.js. The ones who really need to use the talk page are not the high-tech types that understand monobook.js; they are those editors who may understand and are familiar with content while being mystified with anything more complicated than the most basic wiki syntax.
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I'm not saying it shouldn't be opt-in - 'I'm not suggesting it be put into the site-wide file...' - but I think a more advanced version of this (or at least *something* that would either recolor the talk link when it's all bots, or transclude it if bots, or... really there are a lot of solutions here) would be good to have generally available to the community. For example, it's an old and perennial proposal to give rollback to non-admin editors, but it never has flown and never will out of sheer inertia even if consensus is for it - but the people who need rollback while not an administrator now have nice opt-in scripts like the TWINKLE stuff which are almost as good as real rollback.
-- gwern Enforcers RSO ULF GIGN jaws rs9512c SAW Xu package Chicago