On 6/18/07, Gracenotes wikigracenotes@gmail.com wrote:
On 6/18/07, Slim Virgin slimvirgin@gmail.com wrote:
Then you have to trust the oversighters.
Look, Wikitruth was able to evolve because we regarded adminship as "no big deal" while giving admins access to deleted material. That meant we regarded undeleting deleted material as "no big deal." When it started happening, we realized that in fact it was biggish, and we developed oversight, which is restricted to fewer people than adminship.
But the people with oversight are selected by the community (most of whom are unknown) from the set of current admins (most of whom are unknown). So in fact, nothing has changed.
All that has to happen now is for Wikitruth (or anyone else interested in causing trouble) to get someone on the ArbCom so they have access to oversight. It's only a matter of time before it happens.
This is the rule of evolution. Niches will be filled. The only way to thwart it is to anticipate and fill the niches ahead of time. We seem to be very bad at doing that.
What I am arguing here and elsewhere is that one of the very obvious niches is that people can get to be admins by hitting revert for a few months. I think we need to put a stop to that.
Far more good has come out of the "no big deal" idea. Let's not let a couple of bad apples spoil the atmosphere that makes Wikipedia fun to work in. Yes, they happen to be influential apples, but there are other solutions to this problem than crushing the attitude that has brought Wikipedia so much good.
Consider the attitude we're supposed to hold about blocking people. It's preventative, right? In theory, at least. However, blocking almost always has a punitive effect, even though we are told to ignore that aspect and only consider it a preventative tool. Same with the "no big deal" attitude. Often, admins can make waves with controversial deletions, discussion closings, and blockings; that's true. But "no big deal" is the best system we have.
You have to *show* how that's the case, not just keep saying it.
Suppose that blocking was considered punitive. Then we would have to determine how long a vandal should sit in a corner until he learns his lesson, or examine how many personal attacks an edit warrior made. But thankfully, that's not the case.
Of course it's the case. That's exactly what currently happens every day. The "blocking is never punitive" mantra is another piece of pure ideology similar to "adminship is no big deal." Both are prescriptive, not descriptive.
Our blocking policy is simplified, and made much fairer, by effecting questions like these: "Can I prevent this person from making personal attacks by blocking him/her, and thus protect other Wikipedians, assuming that he/she knows not to do this and has been given fair warning?" "To what extent will blocking this vandal stop vandalism but ensure reasonable compliance with assuming good faith and the 'anyone can edit' attitude?"
Suppose that adminship was considered a big deal. Then everyone would have different standards for what would make someone "worthy" enough to be an admin, and everyone exercising those standards at once will make it impossible for anyone to pass an RfA. Some would value a contributor based upon his/her article edits; others, upon his/ her technical work; others, upon his/her interaction with the community; others, upon his/her work in reverting vandals. All these valuings going on at once could make any contributor seem like he/she has no worth to the community. So here's my opinion: discard these stupid value systems.
In fact, this is what RfA is turning into: enforcing personal standards and expectations and demanding all sorts of shrubbery. People have agreed that RfA needs reform. The "no big deal" attitude constitutes the direction we *want* to be going in. If someone can possibly benefit from the tools, give them to him/her. If they abuse the tools, take them away. If you can't track abuse, create a technical means to track it (this last part is particularly relevant to your concerns). This is a volunteer project. Everyone will find a constructive niche, and looking down on one because it doesn't match your favorite niche is not going to help anyone.
Look, abuse happens. It is naive to expect that Wikipedia can grow to the extent it has without abuse happening often (all sorts). Spend a reasonable amount of time and effort trying to prevent it, but making adminship considered a big deal is too damaging a prospect.
The scenario you paint about different people having different standards is what happens currently. The only problem is that there's no culture that opposes promoting accounts who have only reverted articles or voted in AfDs. I am proposing that we develop that culture for all the reasons I've outlined.
I agree that abuse happens, and that we don't want 100 percent security, and anyway it's impossible, and all the other cliches. The question remains: do we care if one person is running six admin accounts? Do we care if that person gets a place on ArbCom? Gracenotes, do you care about these things?
If the answer is no, fine, let's carry on as before. If we do care, what can reasonably be done to make it harder for someone to do that?