Phil Sandifer wrote:
No. That's a crappy stick, because quite frankly,
West Coast Avengers
#18-24 is a reliable source, and should remain a reliable source.
(Because otherwise we get into a whole host of other problems.
Primary source research like this is important.) The thing to tell
someone who wants an article on Moon Knight's throwing arrows is "No,
and stop being stupid." But we're doing a bad job of that, and so
we've contorted our sourcing policies to try to cover this, which is
a problem, because they do a very bad job of it.
No and stop being stupid is sadly unworkable, because you get told not
to be stupid back. And I don't see why we can't have an article on Moon
Knight's throwing arrows if you throw WP:CITE and WP:RS out. I don't
see why we can't have an article on anything then. You need to come up
with something better than telling people not to be stupid.
Now I know that there's
a split in what Wikipedia is, and I know there are a lot of grey
areas.
I will defend any article I believe is well written regardless of
source issues, and if there are such articles at afd please give me a
call, but I will more readily defend the ideal Wikipedia was
founded on.
We need to focus on the general reader and focus on getting those
books into the hands of those African kids that Jimmy often mentions.
What value are those books going to be if they contain facts sourced
from my webpage? And if you abandon reliable sources and citing,
why on
earth do you think we'll have quality articles? How are you going
to do
it. Sorry, but I'm battling POV pushers on too many fronts to even
entertain this idea humourously.
POV pushers are often insidiously good at sources - have a look at
[[2004 U.S. Presidential election controversy]] for why sourcing
doesn't really fix the problem (and if anything makes it worse
because POV pushers can resort to "But it's sourced!")
I'm well aware of what POV pushers do with sources, but imagine how much
worse it would be if there was no rquirement to source. But look, I can
just add what I want and you can't stop me. WP:3RR used to be enough to
stop that, but it won't anymore. Wikipedia has simply gotten too big.
Nonsense. Siegenthaler would have been fixed without
recourse to
sourcing had anybody looked at it. To try to solve a problem with a
solution irrelevant to the problem is silly.
That's not my point but it's a side issue, I'll hope you will agree.
Sourcing has nothing to do with Siegenthaler but Siegenthaler also has
nothing to do with the argument that WP:CITE and WP:RS should go.
You seem to be operating under the curious idea that
[[WP:RS]] is the
source of common sense and judgment in the world, and should it ever
vanish everybody editing Wikipedia will become a dithering idiot.
No Phil, I'm just aware that a lot of people currently attempting to
edit Wikipedia are, to borrow your phrase, dithering idiots. I make no
assertion that WP:RS is the source of common sense and judgement. It is
simply somethin that can be pointed to. I'm already having issues over
whether a fansite is a reliable source or not because RS doesn't mention
fansites. There is an indication of what the problem will be if we do
away with this. Look, I honestly don't care what the rules say, I'm
hopeful I'm pragmatic to make the right call in different circumstances,
but I see too many people who seem unable to work out how to best
compromise. Good articles get deleted, bad articles get kept, people
get tied up in process when they should be editing, Wikipedia has become
a game.
If
someone puts a claim that reading comics makes you gay
into
[[comics]] we do not need any policy beyond "editors should exercise
good judgment" to go "Ummm, that's an interesting claim you've got
there, mate. I'm not so sure I believe it - you mind explaining where
you're coming from?" And when the editor points to their website, we
do not need a policy to say that they're being an idiot and that's
not going in the encyclopedia. Policy is not the source of our
ability to remove crap. Policy is an instruction manual for well-
meaning editors who don't really understand what we're doing. But
[[WP:RS]] and [[WP:CITE]] don't work as that - they're dense,
painfully confused texts that try to oversimplify sourcing and
research, which are both very complex topics. And they enshrine
rigidity where flexibility, discussion, common sense, and consensus
are necessary.
No Phil, it won't work. I've been in, and still am in arguments where
it is me against one other person, and every cry for help goes ignored.
There are too many rules now for this to work. POV pushers can
enlist advocates to run rings around uneducated people like me, push
each and every button, accuse you of bad faith and god knows what,
misrepresent you, troll you, stalk you and make you feel like crap, and
all you've got at the end of the day is the idea that WP:CITE and WP:RS
mean something. We do need something that written down that let's us
work out what works from what doesn't, because otherwise it's you
against me, and the mob rules. And trust me Phil, the mob is a lot
bigger now. I can't see this as working one jot. I won't deny WP:CITE
and WP:RS aren't broken, but I can't work out what the hell we're
supposed to be doing here. It seems like we just muddle through and
hope to hit gold somewhere along the way. Whatever floats your boat I
guess. Policy has become the source of how to remove stuff, because
we're spread too thin.
One of the most common misconceptions and false
attacks on Wikipedia
has always been equating the consensus model with mob rule.
Phil, if you get 50 people pushing on one side and five on the other,
who calls the consensus. Consensus may not equal mob rule, but mob rule
can override consensus. Look at every fractious issue we've had
recently; the userboxes, the admin channel, they all occur because
nobody is interested in discussing to reach a consensus, they have too
much invested in their own opinion to budge one jot. Consensus demands
that all sides discuss with the aim of reaching a consensus, not with
the aim of winning the day. Mob rule can easily sweep aside consensus.
The solution is, in part, to get away from a system of
rules and
towards a system of principles. [[WP:V]] is a good page. [[WP:NOR]]
is a good page. That's because they enshrine principles and goals.
[[WP:RS]] and [[WP:CITE]] enshrine a hopeless bureaucracy that we can
never hope to actually get working. If you want a model where people
look at the goal instead of the method, you need policies that are
principles and goals, not processes. [[WP:RS]] and [[WP:CITE]] are
the ugly processes we wrote to try to support [[WP:V]] and
[[WP:NOR]]. Cut out the process, leave the goal.
Look, I've written my fair share of crap process, and got my fingers
burnt when I tried to take it back, but WP:RS and WP:CITE don't enshrine
a bureaucracy. That bureaucracy is everywhere. Look at the hoops one
has to jump through to do anything now. You can't speedy delete
anything anymore because it ends up at DRV, you can't speedy close a DRV
anymore because it ends up at WP:ANI, you can't write an article anymore
without it being prodded, hell you can't clean up an article without it
going to afd. Christ, you can't do anything without working out what
all these acronyms are. Wikipedia is a bureaucracy, and ironically, you
can't make it one because of the bureaucracy involved in changing
WP:NOT. First you would have to discuss, it, then get a consensus, then
make the change, then engage in a revert war, then have the page
protected and god knows what.
WP:RS and WP:CITE are valuable. Remove WP:RS and WP:V loses half its
meaning. What you are railing against is not two pages, but the
cluelessness of many wikipedians. Sadly, we can't say that on Wikipedia
because we have civility policies. The people who invest time gardening
at the process pages or using them as deletion tools are the problem,
not the people using them to create and improve articles.
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