On 16/12/2007, Andrew Gray shimgray@gmail.com wrote:
On 16/12/2007, Peter Ansell ansell.peter@gmail.com wrote:
That's true. The sample size is very small. But considering that one argument made in favor of spoiler removal was that the spoiler-removal was favored by the public this preliminary data doesn't seem to back that up at all and if anything shows the other direction.
Is there anyway to avoid having always visible spoiler warnings, while allowing users who care about such things to either set a preference to collapse spoiler sections or to be able to set a user.css or user.js function to hide those sections?
The obvious problem is that we then move the debate into "should they default to on or off?", which will be no less acrimonious.
(Consider: having them default to displaying the section, leaving spoiler warnings an "opt-in" method, means that the articles are going to look the same to a passing user as they would *with no spoiler warnings at all*. Hmm. Maybe if you had a "click here to hide spoilers in the rest of the article" button in the top of the page, and did some CSS show/hide trick with that... is that workable?)
I mean, what we're arguing over is the utility to "the outside world", the general reading public, millions of them - and consider the cases for a casual reader...
a) Readers who are happy to read spoilers b) Readers who aren't
i) No visible spoiler warnings [either all removed, or new version defaulting to off] ii) Spoiler warnings visible iii) Spoiler warnings "active" and thus spoiler-marked text hidden
a-i is completely happy - the text is unsullied by any consideration of spoilers - whilst b-i is thoroughly unhappy - the spoilers are there unmarked.
a-ii is mildly annoyed - the text is interrupted and marked up for things they don't care about - whilst b-ii is moderately pleased - they have some spoiler warnings, albeit discreet and not always efficient ones
a-iii is thoroughly unhappy - half the article's missing and they have to faff around to get it back - whilst b-iii is delighted - no spoilers!
(That'd have looked better with a nice diagram)
Intriguingly, it looks like "having the old-style spoiler warnings" is interpretable as the compromise position. That can't quite be right...
I suggest default to off as a compromise moving from the current position half-way back to the other position, (although not changing the current default visual status quo). As you show, its a controversial decision, but that shouldn't default to no action instead of one in which those who care about a specific issue, spoilers, are not able in any way to have their concerns addressed.
It was a big issue on the mailing list and the wiki, and apart from the one forum link to start this thread, doesn't seem to be a big issue to casual readers.
A solution which requires a user.css action to opt-in to displaying spoilers is focused on wiki users, and leaves casual users who so far haven't said a whole lot, it seems, out of touch, although if they have an account they can utilise the system just as easily.
Peter