o~~~~~~~~~o~~~~~~~~~o~~~~~~~~~o~~~~~~~~~o~~~~~~~~~o
post 7.
JA = Jon Awbrey JW = Jesse Weinstein
JW: You've made 5 posts in this "Exit Interview" but haven't gotten around to explaining the details of what prompted you to lose patience with Wikipedia. This is, I think, what would of most interest and use to the rest of us. We've heard the generalizations you've made so far many times before - not that they arn't valid, just that they arn't news to us.
Thank you for questions that go to the point. I thought that I went to the heart of the problem in my very first posting, namely, expanding abbrevs:
JA: In the present state of Wikipedia, the rules in practice and the prevailing attitudes of administrators are all skewed in favor of the Infantile Vandals and the Expert Disrupters, while the Accurate Reporters and Responsibe Scholars don't stand a chance.
That still seems like the best summary of my experience, but I've been spending the subsequent posts mostly just responding to what seems like a massive immune response on the part of the faithful, and it just seemed like it was necessary to go a little slower than I did at first.
I may have been stalling a little while I waited for the results of a promised sock &/or meat-puppet investigation, but it looks like I shouldn't hold my breath waiting on that, so I will just say what I currently suspect, as already posted in my answer to the 3RR action.
JW: However, the particular examples of problems you had probably *are* news to most of us on the list, so explaining them might be helpful.
JW: Just glancing over your contrib list, you seem to be working on http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Charles_Peirce and various philosophy articles, like [[Truth]] and [[Propositional calculus]]
JW: One possible issue you (and many others) have had with dispute resolution at Wikipedia is that, as intended, they give no advantage to any side, requiring possibly endless argument, and in practice, the endless argument can be short circuited either by all but one side being blocked due to violations of norms of discussion (i.e. 3RR rule, personal attacks). Factual superiority (i.e. citing more, or having the books on your side) is only successful if you can convince most of the people who happen to be interested in editing the page. This is very frustrating for many good researchers who come across Wikipedia. Is that the sort of issue you had?
I am used to controversy and dispute resolution, and if proceedings are instituted and conducted fairly, then I can take my winnings or losings and go back to work. But I do not think that the system in place in WP works that way, and I have begun to see the reasons why it never will. There are too many flaws built into the system at its very foundation, and everybody is just shutting their ears to the creaks and the moans of the structure.
It may have sounded so far like I'm blaming administrators, but all I'm faulting them for, at least, the ones that I have interacted with so far, is the fact that they seem to be acting on default assumptions that date back to another era in WP's life. It seems to me that the Expert Disrupters know the ins and outs of the system far better than any of the admins that I've encountered, and they jerk the rules around like any good Washington lobbyist. I understand that the admins are out-numbered and over-worked, but none of that would lead to despair. The thing that makes it seem so hopeless at present is that the admittedly noble principles of WP are just not embodied and insisted on by the WikiPopulace at large, and frankly no size army of WikiPolice could force that spirit into their "hearts and minds", as the fatal saying goes, if they just don't really have it imbued in them already. And that is how it looks at present. It's not a few Brown Sockpuppets that make the Reich, it's the rest of the population that thinks they see some short-term advantage to themselves in letting them do whatever the devil they want for "just a little while, and then we'll reign them in in the end". Yep.
If you have heard this before, then you should think about the fact that you keep hearing it.
Jon Awbrey
o~~~~~~~~~o~~~~~~~~~o~~~~~~~~~o~~~~~~~~~o~~~~~~~~~o inquiry e-lab: http://stderr.org/pipermail/inquiry/ wiki: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/user:Jon_Awbrey o~~~~~~~~~o~~~~~~~~~o~~~~~~~~~o~~~~~~~~~o~~~~~~~~~o