Hello,
as part of the structure data the depicts statements(https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/Commons:Depicts) got released this week. They are not in the UploadWizad yet so this is not relevant for the Upload-Campaign.
But I would like to make clear that (after the upload finished) the protected area a photo was taken should not be shown with the depicts statement. A protected area is a theoretical entity and can not be a depict(of a photography). If there is an item for the real physical object this can be added of course.
I the future there will be the "located in protected area(P3018)"(https://www.wikidata.org/wiki/Property:P3018) statement for this.
So I would recommend to answer with this if there are questions of participants or maybe write this in the FAQ or other information about your local contest.
If you think it would be good to have the protected area information in the depicts statements for now and want to correct this after the P3018 statement got released, do this, but I think it would be better to add this Information based on the categories then.
Feel free to say if you disagree.
Greetings Leo (GPSLeo)
If an image depicts a place that is a shot of the protected area which is readily identifiable as that place then it should say so... whether its Uluru or Old Faithful people will say so, they're not going to say it depicts a rock or a geyser. I understand that a plant or animal image it will say it depicts those not the location.
We want as much information as people can provide, if we get technical on how that is provided people wont. We spend too much energy trying to make people do everything perfectly according to technical requires it just drives people away, if the machines can handle it then fix the machines.
On Sun, 28 Apr 2019 at 21:46, Leonhard Lenz mail@leolenz.de wrote:
Hello,
as part of the structure data the depicts statements( https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/Commons:Depicts) got released this week. They are not in the UploadWizad yet so this is not relevant for the Upload-Campaign.
But I would like to make clear that (after the upload finished) the protected area a photo was taken should not be shown with the depicts statement. A protected area is a theoretical entity and can not be a depict(of a photography). If there is an item for the real physical object this can be added of course.
I the future there will be the "located in protected area(P3018)"( https://www.wikidata.org/wiki/Property:P3018) statement for this.
So I would recommend to answer with this if there are questions of participants or maybe write this in the FAQ or other information about your local contest.
If you think it would be good to have the protected area information in the depicts statements for now and want to correct this after the P3018 statement got released, do this, but I think it would be better to add this Information based on the categories then.
Feel free to say if you disagree. Greetings Leo (GPSLeo) _______________________________________________ Wikilovesearth mailing list Wikilovesearth@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikilovesearth
Hi y'all,
Yes, as you say if a depict a *place* you may could say so, but not an *area*, an area is a concept too wide (both theoretically and practically) to be depicted (ant it's not really useful as the place should connected to the area on the Wikidata side). For your example, a photo can maybe depict Uluru (or at least part of it) but it can't depict the whole Uluṟu-Kata Tjuṯa National Park.
Plus, SDC is just at the begginings, so it sounds like a good advice to recommend to participants to do what we know well for now (espacially as most participants will never even be aware there or what is depict statements). That said, meanwhile and internally, we can still think together to the best way to store data on SDC (and not just P180) about protected area and come up with recommendation for next year.
Cheers, ~nicolas
Le dim. 28 avr. 2019 à 16:17, Gnangarra gnangarra@wikimedia.org.au a écrit :
If an image depicts a place that is a shot of the protected area which is readily identifiable as that place then it should say so... whether its Uluru or Old Faithful people will say so, they're not going to say it depicts a rock or a geyser. I understand that a plant or animal image it will say it depicts those not the location.
We want as much information as people can provide, if we get technical on how that is provided people wont. We spend too much energy trying to make people do everything perfectly according to technical requires it just drives people away, if the machines can handle it then fix the machines.
On Sun, 28 Apr 2019 at 21:46, Leonhard Lenz mail@leolenz.de wrote:
Hello,
as part of the structure data the depicts statements( https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/Commons:Depicts) got released this week. They are not in the UploadWizad yet so this is not relevant for the Upload-Campaign.
But I would like to make clear that (after the upload finished) the protected area a photo was taken should not be shown with the depicts statement. A protected area is a theoretical entity and can not be a depict(of a photography). If there is an item for the real physical object this can be added of course.
I the future there will be the "located in protected area(P3018)"( https://www.wikidata.org/wiki/Property:P3018) statement for this.
So I would recommend to answer with this if there are questions of participants or maybe write this in the FAQ or other information about your local contest.
If you think it would be good to have the protected area information in the depicts statements for now and want to correct this after the P3018 statement got released, do this, but I think it would be better to add this Information based on the categories then.
Feel free to say if you disagree. Greetings Leo (GPSLeo) _______________________________________________ Wikilovesearth mailing list Wikilovesearth@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikilovesearth
-- Gideon Digby Vice President - Wikimedia Australia M: 0434 986 852 gnangarra@wikimedia.org.au http://wikimedia.org.au
Wikimedia Australia Inc. is an independent charitable organisation which supports the efforts of the Wikimedia Foundation in Australia. Your donations keep the Wikimedia mission alive. *http://wikimedia.org.au/Donate https://wikimedia.org.au/Donate*
Wikilovesearth mailing list Wikilovesearth@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikilovesearth
While I agree it is unlikely to accurately depict an 'area', wouldn't it still be possible? You could have maps for example, or aerial photographs, or something that clearly symbolizes the area? Maps and aerial photographs would not be covered by 'located in'.
Lodewijk
On Sun, Apr 28, 2019 at 7:44 AM Nicolas VIGNERON vigneron.nicolas@gmail.com wrote:
Hi y'all,
Yes, as you say if a depict a *place* you may could say so, but not an *area*, an area is a concept too wide (both theoretically and practically) to be depicted (ant it's not really useful as the place should connected to the area on the Wikidata side). For your example, a photo can maybe depict Uluru (or at least part of it) but it can't depict the whole Uluṟu-Kata Tjuṯa National Park.
Plus, SDC is just at the begginings, so it sounds like a good advice to recommend to participants to do what we know well for now (espacially as most participants will never even be aware there or what is depict statements). That said, meanwhile and internally, we can still think together to the best way to store data on SDC (and not just P180) about protected area and come up with recommendation for next year.
Cheers, ~nicolas
Le dim. 28 avr. 2019 à 16:17, Gnangarra gnangarra@wikimedia.org.au a écrit :
If an image depicts a place that is a shot of the protected area which is readily identifiable as that place then it should say so... whether its Uluru or Old Faithful people will say so, they're not going to say it depicts a rock or a geyser. I understand that a plant or animal image it will say it depicts those not the location.
We want as much information as people can provide, if we get technical on how that is provided people wont. We spend too much energy trying to make people do everything perfectly according to technical requires it just drives people away, if the machines can handle it then fix the machines.
On Sun, 28 Apr 2019 at 21:46, Leonhard Lenz mail@leolenz.de wrote:
Hello,
as part of the structure data the depicts statements( https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/Commons:Depicts) got released this week. They are not in the UploadWizad yet so this is not relevant for the Upload-Campaign.
But I would like to make clear that (after the upload finished) the protected area a photo was taken should not be shown with the depicts statement. A protected area is a theoretical entity and can not be a depict(of a photography). If there is an item for the real physical object this can be added of course.
I the future there will be the "located in protected area(P3018)"( https://www.wikidata.org/wiki/Property:P3018) statement for this.
So I would recommend to answer with this if there are questions of participants or maybe write this in the FAQ or other information about your local contest.
If you think it would be good to have the protected area information in the depicts statements for now and want to correct this after the P3018 statement got released, do this, but I think it would be better to add this Information based on the categories then.
Feel free to say if you disagree. Greetings Leo (GPSLeo) _______________________________________________ Wikilovesearth mailing list Wikilovesearth@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikilovesearth
-- Gideon Digby Vice President - Wikimedia Australia M: 0434 986 852 gnangarra@wikimedia.org.au http://wikimedia.org.au
Wikimedia Australia Inc. is an independent charitable organisation which supports the efforts of the Wikimedia Foundation in Australia. Your donations keep the Wikimedia mission alive. *http://wikimedia.org.au/Donate https://wikimedia.org.au/Donate*
Wikilovesearth mailing list Wikilovesearth@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikilovesearth
Wikilovesearth mailing list Wikilovesearth@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikilovesearth
In the case Uluru it does depict the whole protected area it's instantly recognisable. People dont talk about going to Uluṟu-Kata Tjuṯa National Park they say they are going to Uluru... Uluru itself very much depicts the Uluṟu-Kata Tjuṯa National Park. Likwise the Pinnicles depicts Nambung National Park and the thrombolites depict Yalgorup National Park......
Maybe it's a linguistic difference in the way in which Australians speak english, to be brutally honest Uluru also depicts Australia at least to Australians, equally so a Kangaroo might more so than the coat hanger or dish rack in Sydney
Maybe like monuments the nuances of meanings are being lost in translation, maybe this discussion has stumbled into the subtleties of why even on en.wikipedia we have en-au, en-us,, en-ca and other tags to explain and embrace these because one size doesnt fit all with english.
Depicts is jumping into the world of Incongraphy where images have symbolic means beyond the image, they project culture, knowledge, history, and connection to a place. As a universal language english isnt as universal as its made out to be.
On Mon, 29 Apr 2019 at 07:27, effe iets anders effeietsanders@gmail.com wrote:
While I agree it is unlikely to accurately depict an 'area', wouldn't it still be possible? You could have maps for example, or aerial photographs, or something that clearly symbolizes the area? Maps and aerial photographs would not be covered by 'located in'.
Lodewijk
On Sun, Apr 28, 2019 at 7:44 AM Nicolas VIGNERON < vigneron.nicolas@gmail.com> wrote:
Hi y'all,
Yes, as you say if a depict a *place* you may could say so, but not an *area*, an area is a concept too wide (both theoretically and practically) to be depicted (ant it's not really useful as the place should connected to the area on the Wikidata side). For your example, a photo can maybe depict Uluru (or at least part of it) but it can't depict the whole Uluṟu-Kata Tjuṯa National Park.
Plus, SDC is just at the begginings, so it sounds like a good advice to recommend to participants to do what we know well for now (espacially as most participants will never even be aware there or what is depict statements). That said, meanwhile and internally, we can still think together to the best way to store data on SDC (and not just P180) about protected area and come up with recommendation for next year.
Cheers, ~nicolas
Le dim. 28 avr. 2019 à 16:17, Gnangarra gnangarra@wikimedia.org.au a écrit :
If an image depicts a place that is a shot of the protected area which is readily identifiable as that place then it should say so... whether its Uluru or Old Faithful people will say so, they're not going to say it depicts a rock or a geyser. I understand that a plant or animal image it will say it depicts those not the location.
We want as much information as people can provide, if we get technical on how that is provided people wont. We spend too much energy trying to make people do everything perfectly according to technical requires it just drives people away, if the machines can handle it then fix the machines.
On Sun, 28 Apr 2019 at 21:46, Leonhard Lenz mail@leolenz.de wrote:
Hello,
as part of the structure data the depicts statements( https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/Commons:Depicts) got released this week. They are not in the UploadWizad yet so this is not relevant for the Upload-Campaign.
But I would like to make clear that (after the upload finished) the protected area a photo was taken should not be shown with the depicts statement. A protected area is a theoretical entity and can not be a depict(of a photography). If there is an item for the real physical object this can be added of course.
I the future there will be the "located in protected area(P3018)"( https://www.wikidata.org/wiki/Property:P3018) statement for this.
So I would recommend to answer with this if there are questions of participants or maybe write this in the FAQ or other information about your local contest.
If you think it would be good to have the protected area information in the depicts statements for now and want to correct this after the P3018 statement got released, do this, but I think it would be better to add this Information based on the categories then.
Feel free to say if you disagree. Greetings Leo (GPSLeo) _______________________________________________ Wikilovesearth mailing list Wikilovesearth@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikilovesearth
-- Gideon Digby Vice President - Wikimedia Australia M: 0434 986 852 gnangarra@wikimedia.org.au http://wikimedia.org.au
Wikimedia Australia Inc. is an independent charitable organisation which supports the efforts of the Wikimedia Foundation in Australia. Your donations keep the Wikimedia mission alive. *http://wikimedia.org.au/Donate https://wikimedia.org.au/Donate*
Wikilovesearth mailing list Wikilovesearth@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikilovesearth
Wikilovesearth mailing list Wikilovesearth@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikilovesearth
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I think a map would be "depicts: map" not the park itself... the same way the flag of a country "depicts: flag" or even "depicts: national flag of X" (as the items may exist), but it doesn't depict the country itself.
JP
On Sun, Apr 28, 2019 at 7:27 PM effe iets anders effeietsanders@gmail.com wrote:
While I agree it is unlikely to accurately depict an 'area', wouldn't it still be possible? You could have maps for example, or aerial photographs, or something that clearly symbolizes the area? Maps and aerial photographs would not be covered by 'located in'.
Lodewijk
On Sun, Apr 28, 2019 at 7:44 AM Nicolas VIGNERON < vigneron.nicolas@gmail.com> wrote:
Hi y'all,
Yes, as you say if a depict a *place* you may could say so, but not an *area*, an area is a concept too wide (both theoretically and practically) to be depicted (ant it's not really useful as the place should connected to the area on the Wikidata side). For your example, a photo can maybe depict Uluru (or at least part of it) but it can't depict the whole Uluṟu-Kata Tjuṯa National Park.
Plus, SDC is just at the begginings, so it sounds like a good advice to recommend to participants to do what we know well for now (espacially as most participants will never even be aware there or what is depict statements). That said, meanwhile and internally, we can still think together to the best way to store data on SDC (and not just P180) about protected area and come up with recommendation for next year.
Cheers, ~nicolas
Le dim. 28 avr. 2019 à 16:17, Gnangarra gnangarra@wikimedia.org.au a écrit :
If an image depicts a place that is a shot of the protected area which is readily identifiable as that place then it should say so... whether its Uluru or Old Faithful people will say so, they're not going to say it depicts a rock or a geyser. I understand that a plant or animal image it will say it depicts those not the location.
We want as much information as people can provide, if we get technical on how that is provided people wont. We spend too much energy trying to make people do everything perfectly according to technical requires it just drives people away, if the machines can handle it then fix the machines.
On Sun, 28 Apr 2019 at 21:46, Leonhard Lenz mail@leolenz.de wrote:
Hello,
as part of the structure data the depicts statements( https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/Commons:Depicts) got released this week. They are not in the UploadWizad yet so this is not relevant for the Upload-Campaign.
But I would like to make clear that (after the upload finished) the protected area a photo was taken should not be shown with the depicts statement. A protected area is a theoretical entity and can not be a depict(of a photography). If there is an item for the real physical object this can be added of course.
I the future there will be the "located in protected area(P3018)"( https://www.wikidata.org/wiki/Property:P3018) statement for this.
So I would recommend to answer with this if there are questions of participants or maybe write this in the FAQ or other information about your local contest.
If you think it would be good to have the protected area information in the depicts statements for now and want to correct this after the P3018 statement got released, do this, but I think it would be better to add this Information based on the categories then.
Feel free to say if you disagree. Greetings Leo (GPSLeo) _______________________________________________ Wikilovesearth mailing list Wikilovesearth@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikilovesearth
-- Gideon Digby Vice President - Wikimedia Australia M: 0434 986 852 gnangarra@wikimedia.org.au http://wikimedia.org.au
Wikimedia Australia Inc. is an independent charitable organisation which supports the efforts of the Wikimedia Foundation in Australia. Your donations keep the Wikimedia mission alive. *http://wikimedia.org.au/Donate https://wikimedia.org.au/Donate*
Wikilovesearth mailing list Wikilovesearth@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikilovesearth
Wikilovesearth mailing list Wikilovesearth@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikilovesearth
Wikilovesearth mailing list Wikilovesearth@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikilovesearth
Le jeu. 2 mai 2019 à 15:42, Jean-Philippe Béland jpbeland@wikimedia.ca a écrit :
I think a map would be "depicts: map" not the park itself... the same way the flag of a country "depicts: flag" or even "depicts: national flag of X" (as the items may exist), but it doesn't depict the country itself.
JP
Yes, exactly JP. This is more how the way P180 has been used in the last 7 years.
We don't have a property for 'symbolizes' (which is utterly different from P180), it could be useful but anyway, it would be more for Wikidata data than for Commons data (query can infer it latter if needed).
As for the WLE contest, in the very unlikely event where someone ask about Commons data, I would still think it's recommend not to use an item about the place and not an item about the protected area in the property P180.
Cheers, ~nicolas
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