-----Original Message----- From: Carl Beckhorn [mailto:cbeckhorn@fastmail.fm] Sent: Friday, May 25, 2007 08:03 AM To: 'English Wikipedia' Subject: Re: [WikiEN-l] BLP, and admin role in overriding community review
On Fri, May 25, 2007 at 01:11:35PM +0000, Fred Bauder wrote:
Verifiability and No original research are fundamental policies and enforced as such.
Of course they are policies. I only said they are not foundation issues and therefore must be the other sort of policy: the type that is actionable only because there is consensus to follow it.
I am more intersted in the interplay between
- your (novel) interpretation of the BLP policy
- the requirement for "wiki process", which _is_ a foundation issue.
It's clear that they fit together nicely in this case, but not in the way you claim.
- Carl
I think my prior interpretation of BLP may have been unduly expansive.
With respect to Wikipedia:No original research, Wikipedia:Verifiability, and Wikipedia:Neutral point of view there is firm longstanding consensus dating from the founding of the project. A transient consensus overruling those fundamental policies in a particular case is not valid and will not be effective.
Likewise we will not permit potentially libelous material to remain in an article. We term it poorly sourced controversial information, but bottom line, not only is there potential legal liability, but it is wrong. With respect to articles such as about the complaining witness in the Duke La Cross case, Neutral point of view conflicts with Verifiability as we have no way to round out such an article as the only published material is negative. Resolution of the conflict is difficult and results will vary with the situation.
Fred
On Fri, May 25, 2007 8:03 am, Fred Bauder wrote:
I think my prior interpretation of BLP may have been unduly expansive.
Thank you for admitting this.
With respect to articles such as about the complaining witness in the Duke La Cross case, Neutral point of view conflicts with Verifiability as we have no way to round out such an article as the only published material is negative. Resolution of the conflict is difficult and results will vary with the situation.
On the contrary, NPOV does not conflict with verifiability. A neutral point of view means that we balance it out based on what we know. An article is neutral even if it reports mostly negative things about a topic or subject if that's what the sources say. To minimize the verifiable information when the verifiable information is almost completely negative is a violation of NPOV.
Again, few reasonably disagree with removing negative information from BLPs that's poorly sourced/unsourced - if anything, it's "instruction creep" past the basic verifiability/NPOV policies. The problem is BLP being used as a bludgeon to get rid of well-sourced, verifiable, NPOV information because the neutral point of view is negative.
If Wikipedia was around during Jack the Ripper's time, would we have to move his article to [[1888 presumed prostitute murders]], or would we simply accept that the most neutral article we could make is simply verifiably negative?
-Jeff
On 5/25/07, Jeff Raymond jeff.raymond@internationalhouseofbacon.com wrote:
On Fri, May 25, 2007 8:03 am, Fred Bauder wrote:
I think my prior interpretation of BLP may have been unduly expansive.
Thank you for admitting this.
With respect to articles such as about the complaining witness in the Duke La Cross case, Neutral point of view conflicts with Verifiability as we have no way to round out such an article as the only published material is negative. Resolution of the conflict is difficult and results will vary with the situation.
On the contrary, NPOV does not conflict with verifiability. A neutral point of view means that we balance it out based on what we know. An article is neutral even if it reports mostly negative things about a topic or subject if that's what the sources say. To minimize the verifiable information when the verifiable information is almost completely negative is a violation of NPOV.
A counterpoint to this is that if the only things which are verifyably known about someone are in the context of a notable event which included them, perhaps as a rule the person is not themselves notable, and should only be covered in the article about the event.
on 5/25/07 12:22 PM, George Herbert at george.herbert@gmail.com wrote:
if the only things which are verifyably known about someone are in the context of a notable event which included them, perhaps as a rule the person is not themselves notable, and should only be covered in the article about the event.
George,
I believe this is an excellent idea.
Marc Riddell
On Fri, May 25, 2007 9:22 am, George Herbert wrote:
A counterpoint to this is that if the only things which are verifyably known about someone are in the context of a notable event which included them, perhaps as a rule the person is not themselves notable, and should only be covered in the article about the event.
Which is, of course, not a matter policy could ever dictate, as it's governed by too many subjective issues. Discussion is warranted in those cases.
-Jeff
Fred Bauder wrote:
-----Original Message----- From: Carl Beckhorn [mailto:cbeckhorn@fastmail.fm] Sent: Friday, May 25, 2007 08:03 AM To: 'English Wikipedia' Subject: Re: [WikiEN-l] BLP, and admin role in overriding community review
On Fri, May 25, 2007 at 01:11:35PM +0000, Fred Bauder wrote:
Verifiability and No original research are fundamental policies and enforced as such.
Of course they are policies. I only said they are not foundation issues and therefore must be the other sort of policy: the type that is actionable only because there is consensus to follow it.
I am more intersted in the interplay between
- your (novel) interpretation of the BLP policy
- the requirement for "wiki process", which _is_ a foundation issue.
It's clear that they fit together nicely in this case, but not in the way you claim.
- Carl
I think my prior interpretation of BLP may have been unduly expansive.
With respect to Wikipedia:No original research, Wikipedia:Verifiability, and Wikipedia:Neutral point of view there is firm longstanding consensus dating from the founding of the project. A transient consensus overruling those fundamental policies in a particular case is not valid and will not be effective.
This is historically inaccurate. NPOV has indeed been a part of Wikipedia from the very beginning. Wikipedia was already a year old when I became involved, and it was during that year that no original research became important. This was primarily in response to a number of crackpot physics theories that were being added to the encyclopedia. Verifiability followed quickly on the heels of this as a means of establishing that something was not original research.
Likewise we will not permit potentially libelous material to remain in an article. We term it poorly sourced controversial information, but bottom line, not only is there potential legal liability, but it is wrong. With respect to articles such as about the complaining witness in the Duke La Cross case, Neutral point of view conflicts with Verifiability as we have no way to round out such an article as the only published material is negative. Resolution of the conflict is difficult and results will vary with the situation.
So who is arguing that we should include libellous material? Whether something is libellous is a question of fact that is highly debatable. When you extend that to the "potentially" libellous so too is the debatability. These debates on fact driven situations need a chance to run their course.
I know nothing of Duke La Cross or what he might have done wrong, and I don't care to know. Furthermore one should be cautious about generalizing on the basis of one individual. If all that anybody verifiably know about him is bad, and we include it all in our article, then our article has satisfied NPOV. We are not a community of Anne Franks who must document the little bit of remote good that must exist in everyone. There is no obligation for a single editor to cover all the bases in an article. A second editor can still add the positive features to an otherwise negative biography. The real problem arises when each tries to suppress properly verifiable information which the other has supplied.
Ec