In a message dated 7/3/2004 9:26:01 PM Eastern Standard Time, rkscience100@yahoo.com writes: Ray's attacks on the Jews for not forgiving Nazis is not only off-topic, but outrageously hateful. Personally, I feel that your response is even more hateful, Robert. Ray commented on an obervation he makes--whether it is right or wrong is another story, as is whether the question of anyone can actually give it any absolute moral score.

It is certainly not hateful. Many Jews including survivors--especially survivors--debate among themselves whether they are able to forgive the Nazis for what they did. In his book "The Wallflower," Simon Wiesenthal tells the story of a sickly SS man who was dying in a concentration camp, and who extended his hand to the orderly, Wiesenthal, asking for forgiveness with his dying breath. Wiesenthal refused to give it, but, he writes, the problem plagued him for the rest of his life. In fact, that is the theme of the book, which includes essays on that very topic by leading Jewish and non-Jewish intellectuals. Apparently, Robert, even a Nazi-hunter like Wiesenthal was plagued by the question of forgiveness, one that you so brusequely dismiss.

This September, the museum where I work is hosting a conference called "Forgiveness After the Holocaust," which I am helping to organize. At this event, leading scholars and prominent survivors will share diverse views on the subject. I actually formulated the four questions that serve as the theme. I dont remember them all off hand, but they were something to the effect of Can there be forgiveness? Who can forgive? etc. I would hardly call such a discussion "outrageously hateful." We are discussing it. Does Ray not have a right to voice his opinion on it?

While going through some material, I found a proclamation, issued by a woman who was a victim of Mengele's experiments in Auschwitz. The proclamation was made in Auschwitz, as she stood beside one of the Nazi doctors who performed brutal experiments on Jews and others. In the proclamation, she called for forgiveness, sixty years later. Apparently, a film was made about this too. Personally, I have ambiguous feelings about her statement, but that does not detract from the fact that she, a survivor made it. Is that "outrageously hateful"? Does the fact that the statement appears in the state-mandated Holocaust curriculum of New Jersey make that curriculum hateful? Does it make New Jersey hateful?

You ended your post to Ray saying "If so, then you are a sick man who needs mental help, immediately. If not, then you have an anti-Semitic double standard." Is the measure of needing mental help (or alternately, being anti-Semitic) whether that person stands in opposition to you? Is there only one way to view complex issues and dilemmas? That in itself is a fascistic statement: there is only one truth, one legitimate perspective, and we must quash everything that challenges it.

Then you continue: "I am disgusted at this pro-Nazi, openly anti-Semitic vitriol. I am just wondering if anyone here will have the guts to oppose this violent hatespeech." I have the guts to oppose this violent hatespeech. Sadly, however, I see you as being guilty of it.

Danny

PS. Despite your subject line, I am hardpressed to find anything particularly "violent" in Ray's comment.