Thanks to Gmaxwell for removing this from my user page. D'oh! How embarrassing.
The image itself has been deleted too. Does anyone have a copy to hand? I want to put it on Uncyclopedia, where it would almost certainly be just fine in a suitable context. Parody and satire allow *fantastic* leeway for fair use ...
- d.
David Gerard wrote:
Thanks to Gmaxwell for removing this from my user page. D'oh! How embarrassing.
The image itself has been deleted too. Does anyone have a copy to hand? I want to put it on Uncyclopedia, where it would almost certainly be just fine in a suitable context. Parody and satire allow *fantastic* leeway for fair use ...
You could try a DB dump, or [[User:Goplat]]...
Alphax (Wikipedia email) wrote:
David Gerard wrote:
Thanks to Gmaxwell for removing this from my user page. D'oh! How embarrassing.
The image itself has been deleted too. Does anyone have a copy to hand? I want to put it on Uncyclopedia, where it would almost certainly be just fine in a suitable context. Parody and satire allow *fantastic* leeway for fair use ...
You could try a DB dump, or [[User:Goplat]]...
David should have the image now.
grm_wnr
--- David Gerard dgerard@gmail.com wrote:
Thanks to Gmaxwell for removing this from my user page. D'oh! How embarrassing.
The image itself has been deleted too. Does anyone have a copy to hand? I want to put it on Uncyclopedia, where it would almost certainly be just fine in a suitable context. Parody and satire allow *fantastic* leeway for fair use ...
Why can't we use it as parody and satire within Wikipedia user space?
-- Matt
Wikipedia: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User:Matt_Crypto Blog: http://cipher-text.blogspot.com
___________________________________________________________ Yahoo! Messenger - NEW crystal clear PC to PC calling worldwide with voicemail http://uk.messenger.yahoo.com
Matt R wrote:
Why can't we use it as parody and satire within Wikipedia user space?
-- Matt
Because fair use is not "free content", and Wikipedia is a free content encyclopaedia. We should have as little of it as possible. In fact, I think we should take a leaf out of other language Wikipedias and just remove all fair use images. Having fair use images limits our distribution potential in countries which aren't the US (which is most of them).
Chris
--- Chris Jenkinson chris@starglade.org wrote:
Matt R wrote:
Why can't we use it as parody and satire within Wikipedia user space?
-- Matt
Because fair use is not "free content", and Wikipedia is a free content encyclopaedia. We should have as little of it as possible. In fact, I think we should take a leaf out of other language Wikipedias and just remove all fair use images. Having fair use images limits our distribution potential in countries which aren't the US (which is most of them).
But user space isn't the encyclopedia. What's the problem with using such an image in user space, if we have a decent fair use case for it (parody and satire)?
-- Matt
Wikipedia: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User:Matt_Crypto Blog: http://cipher-text.blogspot.com
___________________________________________________________ Yahoo! Photos NEW, now offering a quality print service from just 8p a photo http://uk.photos.yahoo.com
Matt R wrote:
But user space isn't the encyclopedia. What's the problem with using such an image in user space, if we have a decent fair use case for it (parody and satire)?
Because it's a waste of server space if we're not using it in the encyclopaedia.
Chris
On 1/20/06, Chris Jenkinson chris@starglade.org wrote:
Matt R wrote:
But user space isn't the encyclopedia. What's the problem with using
such an
image in user space, if we have a decent fair use case for it (parody
and
satire)?
Because it's a waste of server space if we're not using it in the encyclopaedia.
Chris
Well, the argument constantly made on AfD discussions is that server space is never an issue. By the way, nothing that happens in user space is "in the encyclopedia", including userboxes - is that all a "waste of server space" too?.
Jay.
On 1/20/06, jayjg jayjg99@gmail.com wrote:
Well, the argument constantly made on AfD discussions is that server space is never an issue. By the way, nothing that happens in user space is "in the encyclopedia", including userboxes - is that all a "waste of server space" too?.
Actually, that's slightly different, as text deletions aren't permanent and continue to occupy server space. Image deletions are different.
-- Sam
jayjg wrote:
Well, the argument constantly made on AfD discussions is that server space is never an issue. By the way, nothing that happens in user space is "in the encyclopedia", including userboxes - is that all a "waste of server space" too?.
I don't think everything on user pages (or in fact, pages which aren't in article-space) is a waste of server space. Talk pages are obviously highly useful, as are user pages which give information about interests and qualifications. For example, on my page I list subjects I am interested in and some pages I have contributed to. I think that's useful. I also have some probably "not useful" stuff, like the haiku. But I very much doubt either of those aspects are fair use.
Fair use images are inherently in conflict with what we are trying to do - build a free content encyclopaedia. We should minimise our dependencies on fair use as much as possible. If fair use material is not being used as part of an article, there is absolutely NO reason to have it on Wikipedia at all. People who use use fair use material when it's not directly contributing to the encyclopaedia are missing the point of Wikipedia.
Wikipedia should rely upon the contributions of its editors, not on material others have created, if possible. Of course it's impossible to get a new photo of a historical event, taken by a Wikipedian, but we should make sure that all fair use images which aren't of past events should be replaced with new images which Wikipedians have contributed. That's what Wikipedia is about to me.
Chris
On 1/20/06, Chris Jenkinson chris@starglade.org wrote:
jayjg wrote:
Well, the argument constantly made on AfD discussions is that server
space
is never an issue. By the way, nothing that happens in user space is
"in
the encyclopedia", including userboxes - is that all a "waste of server space" too?.
I don't think everything on user pages (or in fact, pages which aren't in article-space) is a waste of server space. Talk pages are obviously highly useful, as are user pages which give information about interests and qualifications. For example, on my page I list subjects I am interested in and some pages I have contributed to. I think that's useful. I also have some probably "not useful" stuff, like the haiku. But I very much doubt either of those aspects are fair use.
Fair use images are inherently in conflict with what we are trying to do
- build a free content encyclopaedia.
User pages are not part of the "free content encyclopedia".
By the way, I'm not arguing for the use of "fair use" images on User pages. However, I *am* arguing against the use of bad arguments to remove them (and, in general, against the use of bad arguments to defend *any* action). "Server space" simply won't fly, as it appears to be an almost limitless resource in other contexts, and "it hinders distribution of a free encyclopedia" won't fly, as User pages are not part of the encyclopedia content we are trying to distribute. The more relevant arguments seem to center on legal liability issues, though in reality the potential for any real litigation based on their use appears to be nil, if for no other reason than if someone actually did threaten to sue Wikipedia based on a fair use image maintained on a user page (which is extemely unlikely), it would promptly be deleted, ending any action.
Jay.
jayjg wrote:
By the way, I'm not arguing for the use of "fair use" images on User pages. However, I *am* arguing against the use of bad arguments to remove them (and, in general, against the use of bad arguments to defend *any* action). "Server space" simply won't fly, as it appears to be an almost limitless resource in other contexts, and "it hinders distribution of a free encyclopedia" won't fly, as User pages are not part of the encyclopedia content we are trying to distribute. The more relevant arguments seem to center on legal liability issues, though in reality the potential for any real litigation based on their use appears to be nil, if for no other reason than if someone actually did threaten to sue Wikipedia based on a fair use image maintained on a user page (which is extemely unlikely), it would promptly be deleted, ending any action.
The fact that we could just remove any fair use image if legal action was ever threatened or initiated seems to be a particularly bad argument for *keeping* them.
Chris
On 1/20/06, Chris Jenkinson chris@starglade.org wrote:
jayjg wrote:
By the way, I'm not arguing for the use of "fair use" images on User
pages.
However, I *am* arguing against the use of bad arguments to remove them (and, in general, against the use of bad arguments to defend *any*
action).
"Server space" simply won't fly, as it appears to be an almost limitless resource in other contexts, and "it hinders distribution of a free encyclopedia" won't fly, as User pages are not part of the encyclopedia content we are trying to distribute. The more relevant arguments seem
to
center on legal liability issues, though in reality the potential for
any
real litigation based on their use appears to be nil, if for no other
reason
than if someone actually did threaten to sue Wikipedia based on a fair
use
image maintained on a user page (which is extemely unlikely), it would promptly be deleted, ending any action.
The fact that we could just remove any fair use image if legal action was ever threatened or initiated seems to be a particularly bad argument for *keeping* them.
Chris
I haven't made any arguments for keeping them. What I am saying is that if we are to have a discussion on the topic, let's make sure that the arguments made are sound, and the scenarios proposed are reasonable.
Jay.
Chris Jenkinson wrote:
jayjg wrote:
By the way, I'm not arguing for the use of "fair use" images on User pages. However, I *am* arguing against the use of bad arguments to remove them (and, in general, against the use of bad arguments to defend *any* action). "Server space" simply won't fly, as it appears to be an almost limitless resource in other contexts, and "it hinders distribution of a free encyclopedia" won't fly, as User pages are not part of the encyclopedia content we are trying to distribute. The more relevant arguments seem to center on legal liability issues, though in reality the potential for any real litigation based on their use appears to be nil, if for no other reason than if someone actually did threaten to sue Wikipedia based on a fair use image maintained on a user page (which is extemely unlikely), it would promptly be deleted, ending any action.
The fact that we could just remove any fair use image if legal action was ever threatened or initiated seems to be a particularly bad argument for *keeping* them.
We still need to have a reasonable fair use argument. Before we give ourselves the benefit of the doubt there needs to be some doubt. On a user page we would probably be quicker to comply with a take down order because that image was less important to us, or its purpose was already spent. The day may still come where we have to say no; retaining the right to say no when circumstances warrant is a tremendous strategic advantage even if we never exercise that right. We just need to avoid acting with extreme stupidity.
Ec
jayjg wrote:
On 1/20/06, Chris Jenkinson chris@starglade.org wrote:
jayjg wrote:
Well, the argument constantly made on AfD discussions is that server
space
is never an issue. By the way, nothing that happens in user space is
"in
the encyclopedia", including userboxes - is that all a "waste of server space" too?.
I don't think everything on user pages (or in fact, pages which aren't in article-space) is a waste of server space. Talk pages are obviously highly useful, as are user pages which give information about interests and qualifications. For example, on my page I list subjects I am interested in and some pages I have contributed to. I think that's useful. I also have some probably "not useful" stuff, like the haiku. But I very much doubt either of those aspects are fair use.
Fair use images are inherently in conflict with what we are trying to do
- build a free content encyclopaedia.
User pages are not part of the "free content encyclopedia".
By the way, I'm not arguing for the use of "fair use" images on User pages. However, I *am* arguing against the use of bad arguments to remove them (and, in general, against the use of bad arguments to defend *any* action). "Server space" simply won't fly, as it appears to be an almost limitless resource in other contexts, and "it hinders distribution of a free encyclopedia" won't fly, as User pages are not part of the encyclopedia content we are trying to distribute. The more relevant arguments seem to center on legal liability issues, though in reality the potential for any real litigation based on their use appears to be nil, if for no other reason than if someone actually did threaten to sue Wikipedia based on a fair use image maintained on a user page (which is extemely unlikely), it would promptly be deleted, ending any action.
That's fine. The rationale needs to be established on a case by case basis. Even when it can be argued that the use of an image on a user page is not strictly educational research, scholarship and criticism are still available. I suspect that fair use images on user pages would be much less likely to result in legal action than ones in the article namespace.
Ec
--- Chris Jenkinson chris@starglade.org wrote:
Matt R wrote:
But user space isn't the encyclopedia. What's the problem with using such
an
image in user space, if we have a decent fair use case for it (parody and satire)?
Because it's a waste of server space if we're not using it in the encyclopaedia.
What? We have lots of other images that we're quite happy to use on user pages, like user photos. Not to mention user boxes, editor biographies, etc. Are they a waste of server space too? Obviously not. Wikipedia is edited by a community. Things that help build that community contribute to writing the encyclopedia. Conserving 105 kilobytes is not a reasonable justification for removing a darn good piece of community humour.
-- Matt
Wikipedia: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User:Matt_Crypto Blog: http://cipher-text.blogspot.com
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Matt R wrote:
What? We have lots of other images that we're quite happy to use on user pages, like user photos. Not to mention user boxes, editor biographies, etc. Are they a waste of server space too? Obviously not. Wikipedia is edited by a community. Things that help build that community contribute to writing the encyclopedia. Conserving 105 kilobytes is not a reasonable justification for removing a darn good piece of community humour.
See my previous reply to jayjg. We're specifically talking about fair use here, not user pages in general.
Chris
On 1/20/06, Chris Jenkinson chris@starglade.org wrote:
In fact, I think we should take a leaf out of other language Wikipedias and just remove all fair use images. Having fair use images limits our distribution potential in countries which aren't the US (which is most of them).
I agree. Disallowing "with permission" images but allowing fair use images does seem extraordinarily inconsistent. I recognise *why* fair use images are still allowed, but the precedent is there to be as free as we possibly can be. And fair use certainly can't count as "free content".
-- Sam
