On Wed, 2002-12-11 at 12:47, Poor, Edmund W wrote: [..] I'll pass -- as it is, my Wikipedia time is mostly taken up maintaining the software and I don't have time to contribute content. I'd be happy with a little self-moderation -- remember, boys and girls, it's JUST a world-class encyclopedia that will become the primary reference source for the whole world in centuries to come. No need to get worked up! ;) -- brion vibber (brion @ pobox.com)

I will stop participating in Wikipedia if the lists are moderated by anyone other than Jimbo. This is, to use one proposed moderator's turn of phrase, a "*really, really* bad idea, nay, a breathtakingly idiotic idea". Or to use another proposed moderator's turn of phrase, "Horseshit". Or maybe we should have the person who wrote "I hate everybody and everything. I will destroy Wikipedia, and you can't stop me." moderate. Or maybe the one who wrote "The mailing list is the semi-secret repository for the behind-the-scenes scheming to change Wikipedia." At least 90% of our problems would be solved, without adding hierarchies and censorship, if we just moved to a bulletin board system.

On Wed, 2002-12-11 at 17:45, Brion Vibber wrote: It would solve the basic scaling problems * the problem of flooded inboxes * the problem of lack of threading * the problem of ephemerality of content (by making it easy to refer to earlier threads) These scaling problems underlie the current tensions causing the upswells of conflict on the lists. If the bbs were integrated with the Wikipedia system (that is, it recognized users and/or allowed people to make wiki links) it would solve * the problem of obscurity and * the problem of not being able to link directly to [[Wikipedia]] * the problem of not being able to coordinate Talk page discussion with list-based discussions Etc.

Wha, wha? I'm honored and flattered and enormously pleased. :) That said, I have enough self-knowledge to know that I can run pretty hot-tempered at times, I just express it as sarcasm rather than direct insult. Same song, different key... just as inappropriate for someone who has to be impartial. I also, realistically, doubt that I'd have the time to put in to proper moderation duties. That said, I was struck by what Tom Parmenter said earlier: how just having a striped shirt around to blow the whistle and say "cool it, guys!" can be bloody useful. This gives me the idea for a compromise proposal. Instead of moderating the list, at least for now, why not appoint a few "referees"? Their function would be to respond ASAP when a discussion starts to get ugly, and say: "TWEET!! If I were a moderator I would have blocked that post for X reason." This means the list keeps at its current speed and responsiveness, while still having people around to step in and point out that someone's going beyond the pale when they're too emotionally involved to see it themselves. Nor would the position of referee be toothless, as some might fear. After all, they can always threaten to start up the moderation discussion again. ;) More seriously, if someone's collecting a lot of whistle-toots, that can be brought to the attention of Fearless Leader... er, kidding, Jimbo.... who can then Take Appropriate Steps. Note that this doesn't require too much extra effort either from Jimbo or the referees, making it quite easy to institute. And such "referees" could check each other, too, an important point to keep in mind, as we're all human and slip sometimes. This, my objections to myself above would not apply to a referee position (hint, hint... :) Now, on the other side of things, some people are vehemently against establishing any sort of heirarchy. It is, of course, quite possible for everyone to referee; to an extent, we all do (calls to stop flaming, etc). However, there's a difference between a few people saying "stop that!" and a few people /who have been mutually agreed upon by the list to keep an eye on things/ saying "stop that!" The first is an expression of personal opinion; the second is an expression of personal opinion backed by a mutual agreement. When attending demonstrations, there are often people with orange T-shirts or armbands running around, and the demonstrators usually listen to them. They have no legal power, but the demonstrators understand that they're there for the safety and well-being of all. (Yes, there are some who will get out of hand. That's why we have police and Jimbo, respectively...) And, of course, my best argument: if we try voluntary moderation via referee, and it doesn't work, then full moderation will remain an option, and now with the advantage of saying, "we tried it the other ways..." :) -- April (chucking another opinion onto the pile)