The message below has set me thinking about an article I had nominated for deletion sometime back, [[Taran Adarsh]]. He is a film critic, widely loved and hated in the online community and his reviews are picked up and amplified by several blogs. He gets 35,000 hits on google but none of the first 100 hits has anything except his name - some of them have opinions about him but none of them have any biographical data. The afd closed as no consensus to delete, because people say that the no. of hits implies notability. Even if that is taken as a measure of notability, the article does not contain anything related to the biographical data of the person as no such information appears to be available easily and the person remains non-verifiable. Any thoughts on how to deal with such issues?? regards, Gurubrahma Message: 4 Date: Sat, 4 Mar 2006 08:16:09 -0000 From: "charles matthews" Subject: [WikiEN-l] Verifiability - Case Study II To: "Wikien list" Message-ID: <000301c63f63$e6340980$99ac0656@NorthParade> Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=original This is about [[Mark Steyn]]. There are two types of major issue with this page. (I) Scope for scepticism. As it now says immediately after the lead, there is actually a dearth of personal details on Steyn. No date nor birth nor place of birth; no educational details, beyond the fact that he supposedly left school at 16. How do we even know he's really Canadian? This is one for SlimVirgin then; given no reasonable way to check, do we need to see his passport? :Plenty of Google hits for "Mark Steyn, a Canadian". I'm not going to worry about this, and sourcing it; are the fanatics for verification, though? As for the rest of Steyn's life, it is about his media jobs and association with Conrad Black and Hollinger, which is all fairly straightforward. (II) Issues around NPOV. This is where the real meat is. Quoting directly from Steyn's columns is easy, but on its own is not enough for a WP article about a figure who revels in controversy. Just about every whisper of criticism of Steyn on the page has been subject to close attention from fans of his, who tend to cut first and ask for sources afterwards. There have been also some insertions by critics which were not well sourced. Breaking it down by topics: (a) USA and Europe. There is not much left of this, just the one quote from [[Peter Preston]] towards the end, sourced from The Observer. There used to be more about Steyn on Europe's attitudes to armed forces post-WWII. It was cut a while ago and not replaced. (b) Steyn's long-standing claims that Bin Laden is quite obviously dead. This is mentioned in the terms that Private Eye satirises him for that. Someone on the Talk page said that he had dropped this, which dates from 2002 or so; no source provided, and I showed him still at it in 2004. He's clearly not going to retract, so how long can we claim that he continues to think Bin Laden is dead? Strictly, we can't. I don't think we really need to reference issues of Private Eye in which he is mocked for this, but perhaps others disagree. (c) Allegations of Islamophobia. There are three typical areas about this, and the material on the page appears to revolve. The points are - claims that Steyn reported as factual some wild rumours about Muslims in New York shortly post-9/11, and supporting critical column by Johann Hari, with web reference on the latter (we have had some edit-warring on whether direct, sourced critical quotes from Hari should be on the page) - Steyn's use of ancient anti-Islamic quotes from Winston Churchill (seemingly from Churchill's impressions of fighting in the Sudan pre-1900) - aggressive comparisons by Steyn of Anglospheric and Islamic cultures, in sweeping terms. These can all be properly sourced, so really this should be respectable NPOV coverage and allowed to stand without mauling around. I expect more drive-by edits, though. (d) 'Commitment to Democracy questioned'. This is the active area, with a paragraph cut out recently by User:Mitchberg (discussion on Talk page). It was alleged in an earlier edit, that 'critics of Steyn' have questioned his commitment to democracy; because relative to Bush-Kerry, Steyn had said Kerry was foolish to have said that Bush should have propped up Aristide in Haiti. The quote from Steyn was provided, and says just that. It was a bit selective of that column, which has to be read in full to see what Steyn was arguing (Martha Stewart was innocent, so state power needs opposition from 'civil society' to be legitimate). The debate itself is for politics buffs (so, we have to say Hamas and Fatah is more about democracy, than Aristide and the downtrodden Haitians?). The verifiability issue is like this, though: to claim that 'critics of Steyn' alleged something we should source those critics. What are the criteria? Well, random bloggers are not really up to the current standards. We don't need to doubt that people do criticise Steyn this way; but undoubtedly we get a better article by being specific about this, and giving at least one respectable example of such a critic. That's why the para on this is not back on the page. Since Steyn is such a vocal pro-US-Republican writer, it is certainly a shame that the one quote on the page that refers directly to US domestic politics has gone. Could the bit about 'critics of Steyn' be just omitted? Yes, but then it reads oddly, and there really does need to be a more developed discussion about what Steyn's views are (he gets called a neocon, but this is not properly entered into). There are secondary points, and what User:Mitchberg says on the Talk relates to those. He's (I assume male and) a self-confessed newbie, so he makes one mistake, in that he tries to refute the criticism of Steyn. That's not a reason for cutting out criticism (in the way that the lack of a proper source actually is). He also doesn't really take the point that the quote is selective. He goes on to say that he has interviewed Steyn, and knows from that that Steyn is committed to democracy. To do him justice, he isn't putting that wrongly as an argument; but he is also apparently not seeing that if he has an interview, and has published it, that would constitute a proper source for the article. This discussion is a bit stalled right now. I don't really want to spend for ever researching the critics of Steyn, and there is the rhetorical point about whether 'commitment to liberty' now trumps 'commitment to democracy' for American conservatives (with the implications for 'civil society' as a prerequisite). This is interesting stuff, but needs first-rate sources. So there is the verifiability issue in practice, again, of What Is An Acceptable Source? Charles --------------------------------- Jiyo cricket on Yahoo! India cricket Yahoo! Messenger Mobile Stay in touch with your buddies all the time.