----- Original Message ----- From: Ray Saintonge saintonge@telus.net Date: Friday, March 19, 2004 3:20 pm Subject: Re: [WikiEN-l] [[New Haven, Connecticut]]
Some people tend to view some of this local information as non-encyclopedic, but sometimes it is exactly what gives flavour to a place. Even those of us who condemn the excesses of capitalism can recognize that certain commercial enterprises play an important social and cultural role in their respective communities. If one were to extrapolate Rick's argument that the mention of the pizza restaurants constitutes advertising, then we should also delete the Disneyland article because it is effectively advertising for the theme park. Imagine the arguments if someone tried to delete that article.
I think the whole idea of 'encyclopedic'-ness is becoming a barrier to Wikipedia.
I have to agree with Erik; include these places. For those who know the Jersey Shore, imagine an article on the area _without_ including something on the Stone Pony. I live here...Not including the Stone Pony would leave a gaping hole. Not including the Hilltop Steakhouse in a similar article on Boston would be similar.
Yeah, you'd get all the facts, but you'd miss a lot of the character.
My concern was not with some place that claims to have invented the hamburger: it was just that the original poster was adding off-the-cuff pizza places that, at least as far as was indicated in the article, had no particular significance except possibly to the poster. To me, this is POV: "These are the places you should eat at, not any others."
RickK
"John C. Penta" pentaj2@UofS.edu wrote:
I think the whole idea of 'encyclopedic'-ness is becoming a barrier to Wikipedia.
I have to agree with Erik; include these places. For those who know the Jersey Shore, imagine an article on the area _without_ including something on the Stone Pony. I live here...Not including the Stone Pony would leave a gaping hole. Not including the Hilltop Steakhouse in a similar article on Boston would be similar.
Yeah, you'd get all the facts, but you'd miss a lot of the character.
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Rick wrote:
My concern was not with some place that claims to have invented the hamburger: it was just that the original poster was adding off-the-cuff pizza places that, at least as far as was indicated in the article, had no particular significance except possibly to the poster. To me, this is POV: "These are the places you should eat at, not any others."
Possibly it's POV, but I don't read it exactly that way. I'd say that the problem is not really POV here, but rather style and selectivity. We could frame it as a POV dispute, but I don't think that the person who wrote it really intended to slight anyone or advocate for anything.
In a short article on New Haven, Connecticut, it doesn't make stylistic sense to write about "On Route 4, there is a McDonald's restaurant which was founded in 1987. This restaurant, interestingly enough, is part of a worldwide chain of very similar restaurants. The menu includes a variety of American-style fast food, including primarily hamburgers, french fries, and soft drinks. In recent years, the menu has been expanded to include more healthy alternatives, as well."
That's just a parody of an encylcopedia article, if you see what I mean.
However, that doesn't mean that extremely detailed information about some restaurants in a given city couldn't be included in a sidebar article. There could be problems with verifiability, of course. But assuming those are taken care of, then even though some particular information may not belong in a short introductory article, it might be perfectly suitable for a broader article.
Imagine this, for example: "Fine dining in St. Petersburg, Florida". Such an article could properly go into a great deal more detail than the general St. Petersburg, Florida article, and since fine dining establishments tend to receive press attention, it would likely be possible to include external links so that people outside my city would be able to confirm the information contained in the article.
And suppose someone wanted to write a really stupid and pointless article "Fast food in St. Petersburg, Florida", including the silly paragraph I wrote above. And assume that the information could be confirmed.
I say: so what? Let's let them do it. It's not a major problem, since it's silly not many people will care to do it. It won't be well-linked from anywhere on the site, so almost no one will ever see it. I'm flexible on this point, because I think that it's hard to make blanket judgments, and that we would need a lot of case-by-case examples before we'd have enough experience to formulate a general rule.
--Jimbo
Jimmy Wales wrote:
Rick wrote:
My concern was not with some place that claims to have invented the hamburger: it was just that the original poster was adding off-the-cuff pizza places that, at least as far as was indicated in the article, had no particular significance except possibly to the poster. To me, this is POV: "These are the places you should eat at, not any others."
Possibly it's POV, but I don't read it exactly that way. I'd say that the problem is not really POV here, but rather style and selectivity. We could frame it as a POV dispute, but I don't think that the person who wrote it really intended to slight anyone or advocate for anything.
Agreed, but for some POV is a too convenient bazooka for shooting down other people's contributions.
In a short article on New Haven, Connecticut, it doesn't make stylistic sense to write about "On Route 4, there is a McDonald's restaurant which was founded in 1987. This restaurant, interestingly enough, is part of a worldwide chain of very similar restaurants. The menu includes a variety of American-style fast food, including primarily hamburgers, french fries, and soft drinks. In recent years, the menu has been expanded to include more healthy alternatives, as well."
McDonald's is an interesting example. They're ubiquitous. If you've seen one you've seen them all. My guess is that there probably is one in New Haven that is very near to these others. It was not mentioned in the article, but unless there was something special or unique about that particular McDonald's -- why bother?
And suppose someone wanted to write a really stupid and pointless article "Fast food in St. Petersburg, Florida", including the silly paragraph I wrote above. And assume that the information could be confirmed.
I didn't see it as completely silly.
I say: so what? Let's let them do it. It's not a major problem, since it's silly not many people will care to do it. It won't be well-linked from anywhere on the site, so almost no one will ever see it. I'm flexible on this point, because I think that it's hard to make blanket judgments, and that we would need a lot of case-by-case examples before we'd have enough experience to formulate a general rule.
I generally take this approach too. Sometimes those who want to remove these things remind me too much of a Dr. Strangelove who would go to any extent to preserve bodily humors.
Ec
Leave it to you to start making personal attacks.
RickK
Ray Saintonge saintonge@telus.net wrote: Jimmy Wales wrote:
Rick wrote:
My concern was not with some place that claims to have invented the hamburger: it was just that the original poster was adding off-the-cuff pizza places that, at least as far as was indicated in the article, had no particular significance except possibly to the poster. To me, this is POV: "These are the places you should eat at, not any others."
Possibly it's POV, but I don't read it exactly that way. I'd say that the problem is not really POV here, but rather style and selectivity. We could frame it as a POV dispute, but I don't think that the person who wrote it really intended to slight anyone or advocate for anything.
Agreed, but for some POV is a too convenient bazooka for shooting down other people's contributions.
In a short article on New Haven, Connecticut, it doesn't make stylistic sense to write about "On Route 4, there is a McDonald's restaurant which was founded in 1987. This restaurant, interestingly enough, is part of a worldwide chain of very similar restaurants. The menu includes a variety of American-style fast food, including primarily hamburgers, french fries, and soft drinks. In recent years, the menu has been expanded to include more healthy alternatives, as well."
McDonald's is an interesting example. They're ubiquitous. If you've seen one you've seen them all. My guess is that there probably is one in New Haven that is very near to these others. It was not mentioned in the article, but unless there was something special or unique about that particular McDonald's -- why bother?
And suppose someone wanted to write a really stupid and pointless article "Fast food in St. Petersburg, Florida", including the silly paragraph I wrote above. And assume that the information could be confirmed.
I didn't see it as completely silly.
I say: so what? Let's let them do it. It's not a major problem, since it's silly not many people will care to do it. It won't be well-linked from anywhere on the site, so almost no one will ever see it. I'm flexible on this point, because I think that it's hard to make blanket judgments, and that we would need a lot of case-by-case examples before we'd have enough experience to formulate a general rule.
I generally take this approach too. Sometimes those who want to remove these things remind me too much of a Dr. Strangelove who would go to any extent to preserve bodily humors.
Ec
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You've made my point. Thank you! :-) Ec
Rick wrote:
Leave it to you to start making personal attacks.
RickK
Ray Saintonge saintonge@telus.net wrote:
Jimmy Wales wrote: >Rick wrote: > >>My concern was not with some place that claims to have invented the >>hamburger: it was just that the original poster was adding >>off-the-cuff pizza places that, at least as far as was indicated in >>the article, had no particular significance except possibly to the >>poster. To me, this is POV: "These are the places you should eat at, >>not any others." >> >Possibly it's POV, but I don't read it exactly that way. I'd say that >the problem is not really POV here, but rather style and selectivity. >We could frame it as a POV dispute, but I don't think that the person >who wrote it really intended to slight anyone or advocate for >anything. > Agreed, but for some POV is a too convenient bazooka for shooting down other people's contributions. >I say: so what? Let's let them do it. It's not a major problem, >since it's silly not many people will care to do it. It won't be >well-linked from anywhere on the site, so almost no one will ever see >it. I'm flexible on this point, because I think that it's hard to >make blanket judgments, and that we would need a lot of case-by-case >examples before we'd have enough experience to formulate a general >rule. > I generally take this approach too. Sometimes those who want to remove these things remind me too much of a Dr. Strangelove who would go to any extent to preserve bodily humors. Ec
On 03/22/04 13:54, Jimmy Wales wrote:
I say: so what? Let's let them do it. It's not a major problem, since it's silly not many people will care to do it. It won't be well-linked from anywhere on the site, so almost no one will ever see it. I'm flexible on this point, because I think that it's hard to make blanket judgments, and that we would need a lot of case-by-case examples before we'd have enough experience to formulate a general rule.
Another major point in favour of whatever local flavour is to be found is that it helps break up the endless monotonous articles with nothing but the blasted census data. Urgh.
- d.
On Mon, 22 Mar 2004, David Gerard wrote:
On 03/22/04 13:54, Jimmy Wales wrote:
I say: so what? Let's let them do it. It's not a major problem, since it's silly not many people will care to do it. It won't be well-linked from anywhere on the site, so almost no one will ever see it. I'm flexible on this point, because I think that it's hard to make blanket judgments, and that we would need a lot of case-by-case examples before we'd have enough experience to formulate a general rule.
Another major point in favour of whatever local flavour is to be found is that it helps break up the endless monotonous articles with nothing but the blasted census data. Urgh.
Well, I've been trying to remedy that with at least the entries concerning cites in the state of Oregon. (I'd say about 30-40% of those contain more than just census material; the latest I've worked on was [[Jacksonville, Oregon]], which now has details of an archeological excavation of the now-gone Chinatown of this city.
And I could always start cribbing material from this book a friend gave me several years ago: _Mysterious Places of the West_ by Salvatore M. Trento. (I think of it as that book where the author never missed an excuse to include one of his female "Student researchers" in his pictures. ;-) That would broaden the scope of a few articles.
But more seriously, I am still concerned when any article about a town or a city starts including a local business without an adequate explanation for its importance. I don't know about anyone else on this mailling list, but I have encountered on my business trips (back when I was employed & actually made business trips) various books or pamphlets in my hotel room that would mention how wonderful this or that local restaurant/tavern/store or tourist trap was to visit. As I've said in the past, & I'll keep saying until someone tells me to shut up, I don't think Wikipedia's place is to be a mouthpiece for the Chambers of Commerce of countless thousands of communities across the world. It's one thing to mention the drugstore in Wall, South Dakota, & perhaps devote an article to it (I'll furnish an explanation to anyone who doesn't understand this reference); it's another thing for me to mention the drugstore 6 blocks to the east of my house. One is arguably a cultural landmark; the other is just a business looking to increase its sales.
Geoff
Why don't you just leave this up to normal editorial process, that is to those folks who are familiar with the town. This may require a bit of patience, as it may be a while with some towns before someone logs in and adds, removes or refines this sort of material. With restaurants, as they are somewhat ephemeral, one would expect folks to change this material often. The smaller the town the larger the few businesses in them form and reflect the character of the town.
Fred
From: Geoff Burling llywrch@agora.rdrop.com Reply-To: Geoff Burling llywrch@agora.rdrop.com, English Wikipedia wikien-l@Wikipedia.org Date: Mon, 22 Mar 2004 17:07:36 -0800 (PST) To: English Wikipedia wikien-l@Wikipedia.org Subject: Re: [WikiEN-l] [[New Haven, Connecticut]]
But more seriously, I am still concerned when any article about a town or a city starts including a local business without an adequate explanation for its importance. I don't know about anyone else on this mailling list, but I have encountered on my business trips (back when I was employed & actually made business trips) various books or pamphlets in my hotel room that would mention how wonderful this or that local restaurant/tavern/store or tourist trap was to visit. As I've said in the past, & I'll keep saying until someone tells me to shut up, I don't think Wikipedia's place is to be a mouthpiece for the Chambers of Commerce of countless thousands of communities across the world. It's one thing to mention the drugstore in Wall, South Dakota, & perhaps devote an article to it (I'll furnish an explanation to anyone who doesn't understand this reference); it's another thing for me to mention the drugstore 6 blocks to the east of my house. One is arguably a cultural landmark; the other is just a business looking to increase its sales.
Geoff
Geoff Burling wrote:
Well, I've been trying to remedy that with at least the entries concerning cites in the state of Oregon. (I'd say about 30-40% of those contain more than just census material; the latest I've worked on was [[Jacksonville, Oregon]], which now has details of an archeological excavation of the now-gone Chinatown of this city.
Don't forget Fossil, Oregon which is the only place that I know of where the local authorities actually encourage visitors to dig in its fossil beds.
And I could always start cribbing material from this book a friend gave me several years ago: _Mysterious Places of the West_ by Salvatore M. Trento. (I think of it as that book where the author never missed an excuse to include one of his female "Student researchers" in his pictures. ;-) That would broaden the scope of a few articles.
Another good source of local things to write about is the AAA Tourbooks.
Ec
On Mon, 22 Mar 2004, Ray Saintonge wrote:
Geoff Burling wrote:
Well, I've been trying to remedy that with at least the entries concerning cites in the state of Oregon. (I'd say about 30-40% of those contain more than just census material; the latest I've worked on was [[Jacksonville, Oregon]], which now has details of an archeological excavation of the now-gone Chinatown of this city.
Don't forget Fossil, Oregon which is the only place that I know of where the local authorities actually encourage visitors to dig in its fossil beds.
Well, I'm going to need to take a little time to verify that. IIRC, the nearest fossil beds are U.S. National Monuments.
And I could always start cribbing material from this book a friend gave me several years ago: _Mysterious Places of the West_ by Salvatore M. Trento. (I think of it as that book where the author never missed an excuse to include one of his female "Student researchers" in his pictures. ;-) That would broaden the scope of a few articles.
Another good source of local things to write about is the AAA Tourbooks.
I've actually been using their magazine _Via_ to good effect. Not so much as a source of information, but to remind myself of details to include in Wikipedia, & verifying details that I tend to get wrong (e.g., misremembering dates & places).
One of these days I'm gonna have to leave the early history of Christianity alone long enough to write proper articles on Champoeg (where local government for the Orgon Territories started, & the first state park), & Neakahnie Mountain (where a legendary treasure is said to be buried, but the curious carvings have been more plausibly explained as the work of Sir Frnacis Drake).
And then there's the article on Wanker's Corner I'm sure the non-USonians would enjoy reading. (The tavern there was quite popular with the Australian tourists.)
Geoff
Geoff Burling wrote:
On Mon, 22 Mar 2004, Ray Saintonge wrote:
Don't forget Fossil, Oregon which is the only place that I know of where the local authorities actually encourage visitors to dig in its fossil beds.
Well, I'm going to need to take a little time to verify that. IIRC, the nearest fossil beds are U.S. National Monuments.
The John Day Fossil Beds National Monuments are in that area. They're really a series of disconnected sites, and there are other places around there. It just happens that this one happens to be right in the middle of town behind the high school. Most of what I found there was plant fossils. I can't remember for sure if there were any fish..
And I could always start cribbing material from this book a friend gave me several years ago: _Mysterious Places of the West_ by Salvatore M. Trento. (I think of it as that book where the author never missed an excuse to include one of his female "Student researchers" in his pictures. ;-) That would broaden the scope of a few articles.
Another good source of local things to write about is the AAA Tourbooks.
One of these days I'm gonna have to leave the early history of Christianity alone long enough to write proper articles on Champoeg (where local government for the Orgon Territories started, & the first state park), & Neakahnie Mountain (where a legendary treasure is said to be buried, but the curious carvings have been more plausibly explained as the work of Sir Frnacis Drake).
And then there's the article on Wanker's Corner I'm sure the non-USonians would enjoy reading. (The tavern there was quite popular with the Australian tourists.)
Sounds like a great place! I'll keep an eye out. I have tons of material on US place names. It didn't appear in a list of 19th century Clackamas County post offices that I located, but I have some other things that I can look at.
Ec