This just hit the frontpage of my Google. Never heard anything about it before now.
_http://blog.wired.com/business/2008/03/scandal-in-wiki.html_ (http://blog.wired.com/business/2008/03/scandal-in-wiki.html)
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WJhonson@aol.com wrote:
This just hit the frontpage of my Google. Never heard anything about it before now.
It's been all over the Planet Wikimedia news aggregator for a couple of days now, I've been wondering how long it'd be before a thread got started here.
The aggregator's feed is http://tools.wikimedia.de/~millosh/agags/atom.xml, I recommend it as a broad-based source of Wikipedia-related news. Gets some Citizendium stuff too.
On 04/03/2008, Bryan Derksen bryan.derksen@shaw.ca wrote:
It's been all over the Planet Wikimedia news aggregator for a couple of days now, I've been wondering how long it'd be before a thread got started here. The aggregator's feed is http://tools.wikimedia.de/~millosh/agags/atom.xml, I recommend it as a broad-based source of Wikipedia-related news. Gets some Citizendium stuff too.
Open WikiBlogPlanet also has an even broader selection of stuff from Wikimedia-related people, which any autoconfirmed en:wp editor can update. There's something nice about a link called "edit this planet" ;-)
http://open.wikiblogplanet.com/
- d.
WJhonson@aol.com wrote:
This just hit the frontpage of my Google. Never heard anything about it before now.
_http://blog.wired.com/business/2008/03/scandal-in-wiki.html_ (http://blog.wired.com/business/2008/03/scandal-in-wiki.html)
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How does this relate to the English Wikipedia? This is really OT for the list, try foundation-l.
./scream
On 3/4/08, Screamer scream@datascreamer.com wrote:
How does this relate to the English Wikipedia? This is really OT for the list, try foundation-l.
Sadly, I think it's relevant - Jimbo is far more closely associated with en than any other wikipedia.
Whether there is actually anything to discuss is another question. Jimbo has an angry ex. Ok, let's move on here...
Steve
On 04/03/2008, Screamer scream@datascreamer.com wrote:
How does this relate to the English Wikipedia? This is really OT for the list, try foundation-l.
The project relevance is the question of the [[Rachel Marsden]] BLP complaints (Ms Marsden has complained about past versions), which is how they met. And Jimbo is a frequent first contact for famous people with a BLP problem - though in practice info@wikimedia.org is precisely as effective - and his role in such is valuable to the project, so making sure that's clear is a relevant project concern.
(His blog statement says he has taken care not to cross the streams on this one, FWIW. The same expectation would apply to any experienced BLP editor - if you get to know the subject of an article personally, you would be expected not to do a BLP cleanup on it.)
- d.
David Gerard wrote:
On 04/03/2008, Screamer scream@datascreamer.com wrote:
How does this relate to the English Wikipedia? This is really OT for the list, try foundation-l.
The project relevance is the question of the [[Rachel Marsden]] BLP complaints (Ms Marsden has complained about past versions), which is how they met. And Jimbo is a frequent first contact for famous people with a BLP problem - though in practice info@wikimedia.org is precisely as effective - and his role in such is valuable to the project, so making sure that's clear is a relevant project concern.
(His blog statement says he has taken care not to cross the streams on this one, FWIW. The same expectation would apply to any experienced BLP editor - if you get to know the subject of an article personally, you would be expected not to do a BLP cleanup on it.)
- d.
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I stand corrected then. It is not always easy for one to parse a blog entry for relevance, I would ask that in the future; relevance be made known in the post wherever a link of that nature is posted, so it is clear. I hope I'm not the only one who needed spoon feeding this time. But... I could be.
Are there any real concerns here? If so, I would be most ecstatic to discuss them.
./scream
On 04/03/2008, Screamer scream@datascreamer.com wrote:
Are there any real concerns here? If so, I would be most ecstatic to discuss them.
Well, Jimbo doesn't appear to have touched the article himself in any way. Others, e.g. Ms Marsden herself, claim he claimed otherwise.
I know a lot of people are going through the actual logs of work on the article - JzG did a lot of cleanup, and he's one of the experienced BLP machete-wielders, hacking crap bios back to neutrality and relevance, and he may be a crusty fellow in many ways but I can't imagine him doing the wrong thing to an article on anyone's behalf.
I don't think there's actual crossing of the streams in evidence, but if there is it'll undoubtedly show up.
- d.
David Gerard wrote:
On 04/03/2008, Screamer scream@datascreamer.com wrote:
Are there any real concerns here? If so, I would be most ecstatic to discuss them.
Well, Jimbo doesn't appear to have touched the article himself in any way. Others, e.g. Ms Marsden herself, claim he claimed otherwise.
I know a lot of people are going through the actual logs of work on the article - JzG did a lot of cleanup, and he's one of the experienced BLP machete-wielders, hacking crap bios back to neutrality and relevance, and he may be a crusty fellow in many ways but I can't imagine him doing the wrong thing to an article on anyone's behalf.
I don't think there's actual crossing of the streams in evidence, but if there is it'll undoubtedly show up.
- d.
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If there is, it will, and I did my searching. I did not find anything problematic. I honestly don't think anything will turn up, Jimmy is pretty straight forward.
./scream
I just read it in the Times on the train—I looked like a grinning lunatic, but I must ask my fellow passengers to forgive me... I had just read the title:
Fury of a woman scorned—on Wikipedia Classic :) AGK
On 04/03/2008, Screamer scream@datascreamer.com wrote:
David Gerard wrote:
On 04/03/2008, Screamer scream@datascreamer.com wrote:
Are there any real concerns here? If so, I would be most ecstatic to discuss them.
Well, Jimbo doesn't appear to have touched the article himself in any way. Others, e.g. Ms Marsden herself, claim he claimed otherwise.
I know a lot of people are going through the actual logs of work on the article - JzG did a lot of cleanup, and he's one of the experienced BLP machete-wielders, hacking crap bios back to neutrality and relevance, and he may be a crusty fellow in many ways but I can't imagine him doing the wrong thing to an article on anyone's behalf.
I don't think there's actual crossing of the streams in evidence, but if there is it'll undoubtedly show up.
- d.
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If there is, it will, and I did my searching. I did not find anything problematic. I honestly don't think anything will turn up, Jimmy is pretty straight forward.
./scream
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I have an idea on how to conduct future fundraisers of wikipedia. We will get a jimbo and make him wear things and sell them on ebay.
We could also sell Jimbo shaped pretzels
- White Cat
On Tue, Mar 4, 2008 at 7:38 PM, AGK agkwiki@googlemail.com wrote:
I just read it in the Times on the train—I looked like a grinning lunatic, but I must ask my fellow passengers to forgive me... I had just read the title:
Fury of a woman scorned—on Wikipedia Classic :) AGK
On 04/03/2008, Screamer scream@datascreamer.com wrote:
David Gerard wrote:
On 04/03/2008, Screamer scream@datascreamer.com wrote:
Are there any real concerns here? If so, I would be most ecstatic to discuss them.
Well, Jimbo doesn't appear to have touched the article himself in any way. Others, e.g. Ms Marsden herself, claim he claimed otherwise.
I know a lot of people are going through the actual logs of work on the article - JzG did a lot of cleanup, and he's one of the experienced BLP machete-wielders, hacking crap bios back to neutrality and relevance, and he may be a crusty fellow in many ways but I can't imagine him doing the wrong thing to an article on anyone's behalf.
I don't think there's actual crossing of the streams in evidence, but if there is it'll undoubtedly show up.
- d.
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If there is, it will, and I did my searching. I did not find anything problematic. I honestly don't think anything will turn up, Jimmy is pretty straight forward.
./scream
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We could manufacture it.
On Tue, Mar 4, 2008 at 9:37 PM, Ray Saintonge saintonge@telus.net wrote:
White Cat wrote:
I have an idea on how to conduct future fundraisers of wikipedia. We
will
get a jimbo and make him wear things and sell them on ebay.
We could also sell Jimbo shaped pretzels
Do you have a free image of such an item?
Ec
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On 04/03/2008, White Cat wikipedia.kawaii.neko@gmail.com w
We could also sell Jimbo shaped pretzels
This gives me a terrible image of George W. Bush...ah forget it. You definitely don't want to know.
On 3/4/08, Screamer scream@datascreamer.com wrote:
If there is, it will, and I did my searching. I did not find anything problematic. I honestly don't think anything will turn up, Jimmy is pretty straight forward.
That's right. Jimmy routinely asks people on OTRS to look into articles that are one-sided when people ask him to. He had a conflict of interest here, which, for obvious reasons, he didn't want to disclose - so he suggested a smaller conflict of interest in his e-mail to OTRS as a reason for recusing himself from editing it. It would have been better to stay away from the matter entirely, obviously, but I don't see it as a big deal. I' m more worried that the community will now massively push it in the other direction as a reaction against perceived bias.
There are two real stories here, IMHO:
* a destructive, trashy kind of pseudo-journalism that invades people's personal lives under the pretense of a real story; * the destructiveness and maliciousness on the fringes of our own community.
Jimmy not only created an extraordinary project -- he decided to make it based on the principles of the open source / free software movement, and turned it over to a non-profit organization. This was, by no means, the obvious thing to do: Had events played out a little differently today, Wikipedia would be a dot-com with ads, probably a subsidiary of Google, Microsoft or Yahoo.
As community leader, Jimmy has developed and emphasized the values that we cherish: the assumption of good faith, the importance of neutrality in open collaboration, and the belief in a shared purpose. When he talks about bringing education to those who cannot afford it, he's not just trying to impress. Anyone who spends 5 minutes with him will understand that this is his personal life goal.
Moreover, Jimmy stepped back graciously as Chair of the Foundation when he no longer could dedicate as much time as needed to the role. He's helped us connect with philanthropists here in the Bay Area -- donations like the recent 500,000 dollars from the last fundraiser were only possible because of his outreach efforts. His international network of contacts has helped us to build our Advisory Board, really smart people who have helped us on many occasions. He's been humble and helpful, and has always acted in the best interests of the organization.
When people try to create a malicious caricature of the man, then please remind yourself that actions speak louder than words. And also ask what the self-interest is of those who make the attacks.
Erik, possibly you are right, but aren't you posting in this apologia, in the wrong place? It seems to me this is just another example of the lousy public relations at which Wikipedia excels. You wait for the world's press to run the story, and then post to us here - truly amazing. Tell the world not the select few, and tell them yesterday.
Giano
On Tue, Mar 4, 2008 at 6:20 PM, Erik Moeller erik@wikimedia.org wrote:
On 3/4/08, Screamer scream@datascreamer.com wrote:
If there is, it will, and I did my searching. I did not find anything problematic. I honestly don't think anything will turn up, Jimmy is pretty straight forward.
That's right. Jimmy routinely asks people on OTRS to look into articles that are one-sided when people ask him to. He had a conflict of interest here, which, for obvious reasons, he didn't want to disclose - so he suggested a smaller conflict of interest in his e-mail to OTRS as a reason for recusing himself from editing it. It would have been better to stay away from the matter entirely, obviously, but I don't see it as a big deal. I' m more worried that the community will now massively push it in the other direction as a reaction against perceived bias.
There are two real stories here, IMHO:
- a destructive, trashy kind of pseudo-journalism that invades
people's personal lives under the pretense of a real story;
- the destructiveness and maliciousness on the fringes of our own
community.
Jimmy not only created an extraordinary project -- he decided to make it based on the principles of the open source / free software movement, and turned it over to a non-profit organization. This was, by no means, the obvious thing to do: Had events played out a little differently today, Wikipedia would be a dot-com with ads, probably a subsidiary of Google, Microsoft or Yahoo.
As community leader, Jimmy has developed and emphasized the values that we cherish: the assumption of good faith, the importance of neutrality in open collaboration, and the belief in a shared purpose. When he talks about bringing education to those who cannot afford it, he's not just trying to impress. Anyone who spends 5 minutes with him will understand that this is his personal life goal.
Moreover, Jimmy stepped back graciously as Chair of the Foundation when he no longer could dedicate as much time as needed to the role. He's helped us connect with philanthropists here in the Bay Area -- donations like the recent 500,000 dollars from the last fundraiser were only possible because of his outreach efforts. His international network of contacts has helped us to build our Advisory Board, really smart people who have helped us on many occasions. He's been humble and helpful, and has always acted in the best interests of the organization.
When people try to create a malicious caricature of the man, then please remind yourself that actions speak louder than words. And also ask what the self-interest is of those who make the attacks. -- Erik Möller Deputy Director, Wikimedia Foundation
Support Free Knowledge: http://wikimediafoundation.org/wiki/Donate
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Telling the world's press about a "destructive, trashy kind of pseudo-journalism" is not likely to go down well when they recognise that the public, like it or not (I hate it) wants to read about the private lives of public figures.
On 04/03/2008, Giacomo M-Z solebaciato@googlemail.com wrote:
Erik, possibly you are right, but aren't you posting in this apologia, in the wrong place? It seems to me this is just another example of the lousy public relations at which Wikipedia excels. You wait for the world's press to run the story, and then post to us here - truly amazing. Tell the world not the select few, and tell them yesterday.
Giano
On Tue, Mar 4, 2008 at 6:20 PM, Erik Moeller erik@wikimedia.org wrote:
On 3/4/08, Screamer scream@datascreamer.com wrote:
If there is, it will, and I did my searching. I did not find anything problematic. I honestly don't think anything will turn up, Jimmy is pretty straight forward.
That's right. Jimmy routinely asks people on OTRS to look into articles that are one-sided when people ask him to. He had a conflict of interest here, which, for obvious reasons, he didn't want to disclose - so he suggested a smaller conflict of interest in his e-mail to OTRS as a reason for recusing himself from editing it. It would have been better to stay away from the matter entirely, obviously, but I don't see it as a big deal. I' m more worried that the community will now massively push it in the other direction as a reaction against perceived bias.
There are two real stories here, IMHO:
- a destructive, trashy kind of pseudo-journalism that invades
people's personal lives under the pretense of a real story;
- the destructiveness and maliciousness on the fringes of our own
community.
Jimmy not only created an extraordinary project -- he decided to make it based on the principles of the open source / free software movement, and turned it over to a non-profit organization. This was, by no means, the obvious thing to do: Had events played out a little differently today, Wikipedia would be a dot-com with ads, probably a subsidiary of Google, Microsoft or Yahoo.
As community leader, Jimmy has developed and emphasized the values that we cherish: the assumption of good faith, the importance of neutrality in open collaboration, and the belief in a shared purpose. When he talks about bringing education to those who cannot afford it, he's not just trying to impress. Anyone who spends 5 minutes with him will understand that this is his personal life goal.
Moreover, Jimmy stepped back graciously as Chair of the Foundation when he no longer could dedicate as much time as needed to the role. He's helped us connect with philanthropists here in the Bay Area -- donations like the recent 500,000 dollars from the last fundraiser were only possible because of his outreach efforts. His international network of contacts has helped us to build our Advisory Board, really smart people who have helped us on many occasions. He's been humble and helpful, and has always acted in the best interests of the organization.
When people try to create a malicious caricature of the man, then please remind yourself that actions speak louder than words. And also ask what the self-interest is of those who make the attacks. -- Erik Möller Deputy Director, Wikimedia Foundation
Support Free Knowledge: http://wikimediafoundation.org/wiki/Donate
WikiEN-l mailing list WikiEN-l@lists.wikimedia.org To unsubscribe from this mailing list, visit: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikien-l
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On Tue, Mar 4, 2008 at 11:34 AM, Giacomo M-Z solebaciato@googlemail.com wrote:
Erik, possibly you are right, but aren't you posting in this apologia, in the wrong place? It seems to me this is just another example of the lousy public relations at which Wikipedia excels. You wait for the world's press to run the story, and then post to us here - truly amazing. Tell the world not the select few, and tell them yesterday.
Giano
On Tue, Mar 4, 2008 at 11:48 AM, James Farrar james.farrar@gmail.com wrote:
Telling the world's press about a "destructive, trashy kind of pseudo-journalism" is not likely to go down well when they recognise that the public, like it or not (I hate it) wants to read about the private lives of public figures.
This is a public venue where the Foundation can reach out to anyone who wishes to speak with them, making these comments completely off base. He is not reaching out to the media and this is not an interview. He is reaching out directly to the people. Your ability to reply directly to such a high profile figure, and address an e-mail directly to Jimbo if you like, attests to the awesome public relations of the Foundation.
"destructive, trashy kind of pseudo-journalism" - One would assume that they would have the sense to rephrase that for the world's press, although bearing in mind other public relations fiascos I would not put money on it.
What on earth is so wonderful about being able to address Erik and J Wales, have they become so elevated that we mere mortals have become even lower? It is that infallible attitude that has probably got Jimbo into this ridiculous mess. He is not the Pope, he is an American entrepreneur, who has been caught with his trousers down, and made a complete fool of himself, now we who believe in this project have to help him get out of this mess for the sake of the project. We do not have to revere him, while we are do so.
Giano
On Tue, Mar 4, 2008 at 6:58 PM, Brian Brian.Mingus@colorado.edu wrote:
On Tue, Mar 4, 2008 at 11:34 AM, Giacomo M-Z solebaciato@googlemail.com wrote:
Erik, possibly you are right, but aren't you posting in this apologia,
in
the wrong place? It seems to me this is just another example of the
lousy
public relations at which Wikipedia excels. You wait for the world's press to run the story, and then post to us here - truly amazing. Tell the
world
not the select few, and tell them yesterday.
Giano
On Tue, Mar 4, 2008 at 11:48 AM, James Farrar james.farrar@gmail.com wrote:
Telling the world's press about a "destructive, trashy kind of pseudo-journalism" is not likely to go down well when they recognise that the public, like it or not (I hate it) wants to read about the private lives of public figures.
This is a public venue where the Foundation can reach out to anyone who wishes to speak with them, making these comments completely off base. He is not reaching out to the media and this is not an interview. He is reaching out directly to the people. Your ability to reply directly to such a high profile figure, and address an e-mail directly to Jimbo if you like, attests to the awesome public relations of the Foundation. _______________________________________________ WikiEN-l mailing list WikiEN-l@lists.wikimedia.org To unsubscribe from this mailing list, visit: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikien-l