Would anyone object to preloading a references section in every new article? For example, when a user searches for a topic and clicks the big "Create this article" link, the user will be shown a page like this: http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Testing...testing...testing http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Testing...testing...testing&actio n=edit&preload=Template:Article+starter &action=edit&preload=Template:Article+starter.
The text of this template is at [[Template:Article starter]].
--Mets501
Looks like a good idea, might want to ask a dev to do it on WikiTech-I or an admin.
On 1/23/07, Mets501 mets501wiki@gmail.com wrote:
Would anyone object to preloading a references section in every new article? For example, when a user searches for a topic and clicks the big "Create this article" link, the user will be shown a page like this: http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Testing...testing...testing < http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Testing...testing...testing&ac... n=edit&preload=Template:Article+starter> &action=edit&preload=Template:Article+starter.
The text of this template is at [[Template:Article starter]].
--Mets501
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"Mets501" mets501wiki@gmail.com writes:
Would anyone object to preloading a references section in every new article? For example, when a user searches for a topic and clicks the big "Create this article" link, the user will be shown a page like this: http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Testing...testing...testinghttp://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Testing...testing...testing&actio n=edit&preload=Template:Article+starter &action=edit&preload=Template:Article+starter.
The text of this template is at [[Template:Article starter]].
--Mets501
How would this work if you just wanted to make a redirect? Further, would this get in the way of anything useful automated tools, like bots or popups or...?
Most good bots use a direct conection to the server, so that is not a problem. Popups should not have any effect, since they do not do anything with new pages as far as I know.
On 1/23/07, Gwern Branwen gwern0@gmail.com wrote:
"Mets501" mets501wiki@gmail.com writes:
Would anyone object to preloading a references section in every new
article?
For example, when a user searches for a topic and clicks the big "Create this article" link, the user will be shown a page like this: http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Testing...testing...testing<
http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Testing...testing...testing&ac...
n=edit&preload=Template:Article+starter> &action=edit&preload=Template:Article+starter.
The text of this template is at [[Template:Article starter]].
--Mets501
How would this work if you just wanted to make a redirect? Further, would this get in the way of anything useful automated tools, like bots or popups or...?
-- Gwern Inquiring minds want to know.
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How would this work if you just wanted to make a redirect? Further, would this get in the way of anything useful automated tools, like bots or popups or...?
Experienced users are the ones who make redirect pages, and they will know that you obviously don't need refs for a redirect and will remove the section. I think the benefits of this far outweigh this one problem.
I also don't expect to add this temple every time someone clicks on a redlink, but rather only when they click the big redlink that appears when a search yields no results. This is very easy to do by simply editing [[MediaWiki:Noexactmatch]].
--Mets501
Oh, so you are an admin already. *looks jealously*
On 1/23/07, Mets501 mets501wiki@gmail.com wrote:
How would this work if you just wanted to make a redirect? Further, would this get in the way of anything useful automated tools, like bots or popups or...?
Experienced users are the ones who make redirect pages, and they will know that you obviously don't need refs for a redirect and will remove the section. I think the benefits of this far outweigh this one problem.
I also don't expect to add this temple every time someone clicks on a redlink, but rather only when they click the big redlink that appears when a search yields no results. This is very easy to do by simply editing [[MediaWiki:Noexactmatch]].
--Mets501
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Yep :-) And when I figure out a way for it to only preload that template in the main namespace, I'm going to add it.
--Mets501
-----Original Message----- From: wikien-l-bounces@lists.wikimedia.org [mailto:wikien-l-bounces@lists.wikimedia.org] On Behalf Of . Firefoxman Sent: Tuesday, January 23, 2007 3:43 PM To: English Wikipedia Subject: Re: [WikiEN-l] Preloading template in new articles
Oh, so you are an admin already. *looks jealously*
On 1/23/07, Mets501 mets501wiki@gmail.com wrote:
How would this work if you just wanted to make a redirect? Further, would this get in the way of anything useful automated tools, like bots or popups or...?
Experienced users are the ones who make redirect pages, and they will know that you obviously don't need refs for a redirect and will remove the section. I think the benefits of this far outweigh this one problem.
I also don't expect to add this temple every time someone clicks on a redlink, but rather only when they click the big redlink that appears when a search yields no results. This is very easy to do by simply editing [[MediaWiki:Noexactmatch]].
--Mets501
WikiEN-l mailing list WikiEN-l@lists.wikimedia.org To unsubscribe from this mailing list, visit: http://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikien-l
-- en:User:Firefoxman
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And when I figure out a way for it to only preload that template in the main namespace, I'm going to add it.
I don't know much about preloading templates in edit boxes, but could you put an if statement in the template so it's blank if outside the main namespace? {{if|{{{NAMESPACE}}}=""|<references>||}} or something (I can't remember the syntax for if statements).
I don't know much about preloading templates in edit boxes, but could you put an if statement in the template so it's blank if outside the main namespace? {{if|{{{NAMESPACE}}}=""|<references>||}} or something (I can't remember the syntax for if statements).
I've looked up the syntax. I think it should be:
{{#if:{{NAMESPACE}}|| [your code here] }}
I don't know much about preloading templates in edit boxes, but could you put an if statement in the template so it's blank if outside the main namespace? {{if|{{{NAMESPACE}}}=""|<references>||}} or something (I can't remember the syntax for if statements).
I've looked up the syntax. I think it should be:
{{#if:{{NAMESPACE}}|| [your code here] }}
That would work generally but when you're talking about preloading, whatever is in the template source code is exactly what goes in the edit box; nothing is parsed, nothing can be commented out, etc.
--Mets501
On 1/23/07, Mets501 mets501wiki@gmail.com wrote:
Would anyone object to preloading a references section in every new article? For example, when a user searches for a topic and clicks the big "Create this article" link, the user will be shown a page like this: http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Testing...testing...testing http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Testing...testing...testing&actio n=edit&preload=Template:Article+starter &action=edit&preload=Template:Article+starter.
The text of this template is at [[Template:Article starter]].
--Mets501
I'd much prefer it if we didn't do this, it seems kinda....I don't know....assholeish. You know, shoving things down peoples throats. It has an element of WP:BITE in it, I think. Also, I think it will be fairly ineffective (people will simply ignore it, or be confused since the comment tag is fairly obscure for the average user), and it will mess with the "purity" of the edit box (not much of an argument, but still ;)
Why not simply include it in the text that's above the edit box more prominently? Like, bold it and make it 2 points bigger than the rest.
--Oskar
I'd much prefer it if we didn't do this, it seems kinda....I don't
know....assholeish.
You know, shoving things down peoples throats. It has an element of
WP:BITE in it, I
think. Also, I think it will > be fairly ineffective (people will simply
ignore it, or
be confused since the comment tag is fairly obscure for the average user),
and it will
mess with the "purity" of the edit box (not much of an argument, but still
;)
Why not simply include it in the text that's above the edit box more
prominently? Like,
bold it and make it 2 points bigger than the rest.
--Oskar
It already is included in the text above the edit box, but it's not enough. New users don't know how to add references, and therefore just ignore the whole thing.
--Mets501
On 1/23/07, Mets501 mets501wiki@gmail.com wrote:
It already is included in the text above the edit box, but it's not enough. New users don't know how to add references, and therefore just ignore the whole thing.
--Mets501
Which is another good point, this wont help any new users add references. If they're not smart enough to see the big notice above the edit-box, then they're probably not wiki-savvy enough to know what the hell "==References==" or "<!-- --&mt;" means.
Still, my main argument still stands. It's condescending and rude, and that's not how we should treat our new users, let alone our experienced ones who are going to have to see that damn notice every damn time they start an article. I just think that that is not the way we should be treating new users.
I know I would never have joined if I had been greeted by a bunch of reference-fanatic dudes who didn't have any patience with people who didn't quite get how wikipedia works.
--Oskar
On 23/01/07, Oskar Sigvardsson oskarsigvardsson@gmail.com wrote:
Still, my main argument still stands. It's condescending and rude, and that's not how we should treat our new users, let alone our experienced ones who are going to have to see that damn notice every damn time they start an article. I just think that that is not the way we should be treating new users. I know I would never have joined if I had been greeted by a bunch of reference-fanatic dudes who didn't have any patience with people who didn't quite get how wikipedia works.
Unfortunately, not doing so is likely to see their article zapped, which is a much less n00b-friendly experience.
Yet another person just popped onto IRC asking how to create an article that wouldn't get killed on sight. I said "write a few paragraphs, add good references." "How should I format the references?" "Not important. Just have them. Trust me - after dredging through lame garage band articles on Special:Newpages, you'll cry at the wikibeauty of an article that actually has its refs."
Surely it's polite to let them know rather than give great big warning notices but no clues.
- d.
On 1/23/07, David Gerard dgerard@gmail.com wrote:
On 23/01/07, Oskar Sigvardsson oskarsigvardsson@gmail.com wrote:
Still, my main argument still stands. It's condescending and rude, and that's not how we should treat our new users, let alone our experienced ones who are going to have to see that damn notice every damn time they start an article. I just think that that is not the way we should be treating new users. I know I would never have joined if I had been greeted by a bunch of reference-fanatic dudes who didn't have any patience with people who didn't quite get how wikipedia works.
Unfortunately, not doing so is likely to see their article zapped, which is a much less n00b-friendly experience.
Yet another person just popped onto IRC asking how to create an article that wouldn't get killed on sight. I said "write a few paragraphs, add good references." "How should I format the references?" "Not important. Just have them. Trust me - after dredging through lame garage band articles on Special:Newpages, you'll cry at the wikibeauty of an article that actually has its refs."
Surely it's polite to let them know rather than give great big warning notices but no clues.
I thought about this, looked at it, thought some more...
Not really condescending, I think, and a good reminder. I'd wait until tomorrow to make it live, but I say go for it if no good objections come up by tomorrow...
Oskar Sigvardsson wrote:
On 1/23/07, Mets501 mets501wiki@gmail.com wrote:
It already is included in the text above the edit box, but it's not enough. New users don't know how to add references, and therefore just ignore the whole thing.
Which is another good point, this wont help any new users add references. If they're not smart enough to see the big notice above the edit-box, then they're probably not wiki-savvy enough to know what the hell "==References==" or "<!-- --&mt;" means.
Still, my main argument still stands. It's condescending and rude, and that's not how we should treat our new users, let alone our experienced ones who are going to have to see that damn notice every damn time they start an article. I just think that that is not the way we should be treating new users.
I know I would never have joined if I had been greeted by a bunch of reference-fanatic dudes who didn't have any patience with people who didn't quite get how wikipedia works.
Absolutely. But the rule-mongers that like this sort of thing. Any kind of sensible human relations have to take second place to this kind of petty imposed order.
Perhaps it should be made clear to the newbies that since form is more important than substance it does not matter whether the reference has anything to do with what they are writing.
Ec
On 1/24/07, Ray Saintonge saintonge@telus.net wrote:
Perhaps it should be made clear to the newbies that since form is more important than substance it does not matter whether the reference has anything to do with what they are writing.
Ec
Actually, it does matter. References need to back up what you've written. It might be harder to check, but I'd mcuh rather check if a source is accurate than to check if one even exists. I totally agree with David Gerard. Having an article deleted is really a lot less noob friendly than asking for sources to avoid it.
How to format sources really doesn't matter. Formatting is an easy fix for experienced editors. Just having them is a step in the right direction.
Mgm
Perhaps it should be made clear to the newbies that since form is more important than substance it does not matter whether the reference has anything to do with what they are writing.
Actually, it does matter. References need to back up what you've written.
I think you'll find Ray was being sarcastic...
Sarcastic? Please forgive me for not noticing the invisible sarcasm-tags. My eyes probably need rechecking anyway. ;P
Mgm
On 1/24/07, Thomas Dalton thomas.dalton@gmail.com wrote:
Perhaps it should be made clear to the newbies that since form is more important than substance it does not matter whether the reference has anything to do with what they are writing.
Actually, it does matter. References need to back up what you've
written.
I think you'll find Ray was being sarcastic...
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I remember a warning that was in massive red letters above an edit box. I also remember the AFC preload template.
Both are still effectively ignored.
I don't think it BITEs people. It helps them become familiar with requirements so they don't get bitten for not citing their sources later.
Mgm
On 1/23/07, Oskar Sigvardsson oskarsigvardsson@gmail.com wrote:
On 1/23/07, Mets501 mets501wiki@gmail.com wrote:
Would anyone object to preloading a references section in every new
article?
For example, when a user searches for a topic and clicks the big "Create this article" link, the user will be shown a page like this: http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Testing...testing...testing <
http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Testing...testing...testing&ac...
n=edit&preload=Template:Article+starter> &action=edit&preload=Template:Article+starter.
The text of this template is at [[Template:Article starter]].
--Mets501
I'd much prefer it if we didn't do this, it seems kinda....I don't know....assholeish. You know, shoving things down peoples throats. It has an element of WP:BITE in it, I think. Also, I think it will be fairly ineffective (people will simply ignore it, or be confused since the comment tag is fairly obscure for the average user), and it will mess with the "purity" of the edit box (not much of an argument, but still ;)
Why not simply include it in the text that's above the edit box more prominently? Like, bold it and make it 2 points bigger than the rest.
--Oskar
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On Tue, Jan 23, 2007 at 10:51:22AM -0500, Mets501 wrote:
Would anyone object to preloading a references section in every new article? For example, when a user searches for a topic and clicks the big "Create this article" link, the user will be shown a page like this: http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Testing...testing...testing http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Testing...testing...testing&actio n=edit&preload=Template:Article+starter &action=edit&preload=Template:Article+starter.
The text of this template is at [[Template:Article starter]].
Why not add <references/> as well. I'm always forgetting to check whether it is there before editing a section and adding refs.
--Mets501
Why is the page protected if nothing links to it?
From the history:
"Protected Template:Article starter: included in MediaWiki namespace [edit=sysop:move=sysop]"
But when you look herehttp://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Special:Whatlinkshere/Template:Article_starter, you see this is false.
On 1/23/07, Brian Salter-Duke b_duke@bigpond.net.au wrote:
On Tue, Jan 23, 2007 at 10:51:22AM -0500, Mets501 wrote:
Would anyone object to preloading a references section in every new
article?
For example, when a user searches for a topic and clicks the big "Create this article" link, the user will be shown a page like this: http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Testing...testing...testing <
http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Testing...testing...testing&ac...
n=edit&preload=Template:Article+starter> &action=edit&preload=Template:Article+starter.
The text of this template is at [[Template:Article starter]].
Why not add <references/> as well. I'm always forgetting to check whether it is there before editing a section and adding refs.
--Mets501
-- Brian Salter-Duke b_duke@bigpond.net.au [[User:Bduke]] mainly on en:Wikipedia. Also on fr: Wikipedia, Meta-Wiki and Wikiversity
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It’s protected in preparation for being preloaded on the edit pages if enabled. This won’t show up in WhatLinksHere.
From: · Firefoxman [mailto:enwpmail@gmail.com] Sent: Tuesday, January 23, 2007 4:54 PM To: Brian Salter-Duke; English Wikipedia; Mets501 Subject: Re: [WikiEN-l] Preloading template in new articles
Why is the page protected if nothing links to it?
From the history:
"Protected Template:Article starter: included in MediaWiki namespace [edit=sysop:move=sysop]"
But when you look here http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Special:Whatlinkshere/Template:Article_starter , you see this is false.
On 1/23/07, Brian Salter-Duke b_duke@bigpond.net.au wrote:
On Tue, Jan 23, 2007 at 10:51:22AM -0500, Mets501 wrote:
Would anyone object to preloading a references section in every new article? For example, when a user searches for a topic and clicks the big "Create this article" link, the user will be shown a page like this: http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Testing...testing...testing <http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Testing...testing...testing http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Testing...testing...testing&actio &actio n=edit&preload=Template:Article+starter> &action=edit&preload=Template:Article+starter.
The text of this template is at [[Template:Article starter]].
Why not add <references/> as well. I'm always forgetting to check whether it is there before editing a section and adding refs.
--Mets501
-- Brian Salter-Duke b_duke@bigpond.net.au [[User:Bduke]] mainly on en:Wikipedia. Also on fr: Wikipedia, Meta-Wiki and Wikiversity
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On 1/24/07, Mets501 mets501wiki@gmail.com wrote:
Would anyone object to preloading a references section in every new article? For example, when a user searches for a topic and clicks the big "Create this article" link, the user will be shown a page like this: http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Testing...testing...testing http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Testing...testing...testing&actio n=edit&preload=Template:Article+starter &action=edit&preload=Template:Article+starter.
This has been proposed before, several times. Can I suggest that if we do this, we put a lot of thought into the template, *before* inflicting it on everyone. It should be really intuitive and self-explanatory, and *not annoying*. Also, disablable (opt-out or opt-in) for registered users.
If you want to see how well the "provide wikitext to a new user and get them to customise it" thing really works out, just look at the crud that newbies at WP:AFC generate.
Steve