http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/technology/7914828.stm
It's an article on how wonderful it is that political movements are better documented in their formative stages these days ... but all I could think was what a pain it can be researching anything that happened before 1995.
After the low-hanging fruit come those of us with books.
(I've been *really annoyed* lately when a fact in an article has a reference ... but it's been tagged {{fact}} because it doesn't have an *online* reference. Suggestion: searching for all articles with "</ref>{{fact" in them and sending 50,000 volts through the chair of anyone who tagged a reference on mere paper.
- d.
On Wed, Mar 4, 2009 at 1:56 PM, David Gerard dgerard@gmail.com wrote:
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/technology/7914828.stm
It's an article on how wonderful it is that political movements are better documented in their formative stages these days ... but all I could think was what a pain it can be researching anything that happened before 1995.
After the low-hanging fruit come those of us with books.
(I've been *really annoyed* lately when a fact in an article has a reference ... but it's been tagged {{fact}} because it doesn't have an *online* reference. Suggestion: searching for all articles with "</ref>{{fact" in them and sending 50,000 volts through the chair of anyone who tagged a reference on mere paper.
<me wonders how many people edit Wikipedia without sitting on a chair>
Carcharoth
On 3/4/09, David Gerard dgerard@gmail.com wrote:
(I've been *really annoyed* lately when a fact in an article has a reference ... but it's been tagged {{fact}} because it doesn't have an *online* reference. Suggestion: searching for all articles with "</ref>{{fact" in them and sending 50,000 volts through the chair of anyone who tagged a reference on mere paper.
I've seen that in editing disputes - where one side insists that the other side's reference isn't actually verifiable because it's not online so they can't verify it. Feel like pointing out we did actually use to be able to check things out before the internet happened you know. However I suspect most of these are fairly tendentious, along the lines of people who tag articles as unreferenced because they don't have inline references but do have a list of books from which all the facts in the article were taken.
Two words: interlibrary loan.
-Durova
On Wed, Mar 4, 2009 at 7:22 AM, Sam Blacketer sam.blacketer@googlemail.comwrote:
On 3/4/09, David Gerard dgerard@gmail.com wrote:
(I've been *really annoyed* lately when a fact in an article has a reference ... but it's been tagged {{fact}} because it doesn't have an *online* reference. Suggestion: searching for all articles with "</ref>{{fact" in them and sending 50,000 volts through the chair of anyone who tagged a reference on mere paper.
I've seen that in editing disputes - where one side insists that the other side's reference isn't actually verifiable because it's not online so they can't verify it. Feel like pointing out we did actually use to be able to check things out before the internet happened you know. However I suspect most of these are fairly tendentious, along the lines of people who tag articles as unreferenced because they don't have inline references but do have a list of books from which all the facts in the article were taken.
-- Sam Blacketer _______________________________________________ WikiEN-l mailing list WikiEN-l@lists.wikimedia.org To unsubscribe from this mailing list, visit: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikien-l
2009/3/4 Durova nadezhda.durova@gmail.com:
Two words: interlibrary loan.
-Durova
Doesn't work so well these days. Enough libraries have been closed and stock sold off that you don't have to get that obscure before you have to turn to the rather expensive out of county loan system. For example my county does not have a copy of:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/What_Is_This_Thing_Called_Science%3F
2009/3/4 geni geniice@gmail.com:
2009/3/4 Durova nadezhda.durova@gmail.com:
Two words: interlibrary loan.
-Durova
Doesn't work so well these days. Enough libraries have been closed and stock sold off that you don't have to get that obscure before you have to turn to the rather expensive out of county loan system. For example my county does not have a copy of:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/What_Is_This_Thing_Called_Science%3F
Can we not assume the whole world is situated in the middle of North America, please?
2009/3/4 Thomas Dalton thomas.dalton@gmail.com:
2009/3/4 geni geniice@gmail.com:
2009/3/4 Durova nadezhda.durova@gmail.com:
Two words: interlibrary loan.
-Durova
Doesn't work so well these days. Enough libraries have been closed and stock sold off that you don't have to get that obscure before you have to turn to the rather expensive out of county loan system. For example my county does not have a copy of:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/What_Is_This_Thing_Called_Science%3F
Can we not assume the whole world is situated in the middle of North America, please?
I'm kinda British.
Most of the English speaking first world is in a reasonable shape with regard to libraries. Outside that I'm not sure.
2009/3/4 geni geniice@gmail.com:
2009/3/4 Thomas Dalton thomas.dalton@gmail.com:
2009/3/4 geni geniice@gmail.com:
Doesn't work so well these days. Enough libraries have been closed and stock sold off that you don't have to get that obscure before you have to turn to the rather expensive out of county loan system. For example my county does not have a copy of:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/What_Is_This_Thing_Called_Science%3F
Can we not assume the whole world is situated in the middle of North America, please?
I'm kinda British.
Most of the English speaking first world is in a reasonable shape with regard to libraries. Outside that I'm not sure.
Oh, sorry, where you referring to British counties (I'm not sure what the public library system is in Britain for this kind of thing - I'm a student so have access to university libraries and inter-library loans through that which aren't expensive at all - maybe even free)? I generally assume if someone doesn't say what country they're talking about then they mean the USA - it's usually a pretty safe assumption.
Good replies.
Usually in practice that generates one of two responses:
*Either the editor requests an interlibrary loan (or finds someone willing and able). *Or else the editor evades the suggestion and continues disputing on other points.
In practice, it's an effective way to distinguish who's serious about the project and who isn't. I suggested interlibrary loan at a talk page the other day and go an uncooperative response.
Lo and behold, there had previously been a conduct RFC and a positive checkuser result for disruption at that article. A new checkuser came in positive also. Today someone got blocked for a month.
-Durova
On Wed, Mar 4, 2009 at 10:25 AM, Thomas Dalton thomas.dalton@gmail.comwrote:
2009/3/4 geni geniice@gmail.com:
2009/3/4 Thomas Dalton thomas.dalton@gmail.com:
2009/3/4 geni geniice@gmail.com:
Doesn't work so well these days. Enough libraries have been closed and stock sold off that you don't have to get that obscure before you have to turn to the rather expensive out of county loan system. For example my county does not have a copy of:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/What_Is_This_Thing_Called_Science%3F
Can we not assume the whole world is situated in the middle of North America, please?
I'm kinda British.
Most of the English speaking first world is in a reasonable shape with regard to libraries. Outside that I'm not sure.
Oh, sorry, where you referring to British counties (I'm not sure what the public library system is in Britain for this kind of thing - I'm a student so have access to university libraries and inter-library loans through that which aren't expensive at all - maybe even free)? I generally assume if someone doesn't say what country they're talking about then they mean the USA - it's usually a pretty safe assumption.
WikiEN-l mailing list WikiEN-l@lists.wikimedia.org To unsubscribe from this mailing list, visit: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikien-l
I worked for many years running (among other things) an interlibrary loan system. Any librarian in at least the US who says that a free or inexpensive copy is not available for anything other than a rare book or an expensive art or reference book is not doing their job right.
The main problem with the system with respect to Wikipedia is that most libraries work very slowly, so it can take some weeks--and therefore cannot be used in a Wikipedia debate, which is typically closed in a few days (or hours).,
On Wed, Mar 4, 2009 at 1:42 PM, Durova nadezhda.durova@gmail.com wrote:
Good replies.
Usually in practice that generates one of two responses:
*Either the editor requests an interlibrary loan (or finds someone willing and able). *Or else the editor evades the suggestion and continues disputing on other points.
In practice, it's an effective way to distinguish who's serious about the project and who isn't. I suggested interlibrary loan at a talk page the other day and go an uncooperative response.
Lo and behold, there had previously been a conduct RFC and a positive checkuser result for disruption at that article. A new checkuser came in positive also. Today someone got blocked for a month.
-Durova
On Wed, Mar 4, 2009 at 10:25 AM, Thomas Dalton thomas.dalton@gmail.comwrote:
2009/3/4 geni geniice@gmail.com:
2009/3/4 Thomas Dalton thomas.dalton@gmail.com:
2009/3/4 geni geniice@gmail.com:
Doesn't work so well these days. Enough libraries have been closed and stock sold off that you don't have to get that obscure before you have to turn to the rather expensive out of county loan system. For example my county does not have a copy of:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/What_Is_This_Thing_Called_Science%3F
Can we not assume the whole world is situated in the middle of North America, please?
I'm kinda British.
Most of the English speaking first world is in a reasonable shape with regard to libraries. Outside that I'm not sure.
Oh, sorry, where you referring to British counties (I'm not sure what the public library system is in Britain for this kind of thing - I'm a student so have access to university libraries and inter-library loans through that which aren't expensive at all - maybe even free)? I generally assume if someone doesn't say what country they're talking about then they mean the USA - it's usually a pretty safe assumption.
WikiEN-l mailing list WikiEN-l@lists.wikimedia.org To unsubscribe from this mailing list, visit: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikien-l
-- http://durova.blogspot.com/ _______________________________________________ WikiEN-l mailing list WikiEN-l@lists.wikimedia.org To unsubscribe from this mailing list, visit: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikien-l
On Wed, Mar 4, 2009 at 7:01 PM, David Goodman dgoodmanny@gmail.com wrote:
I worked for many years running (among other things) an interlibrary loan system. Any librarian in at least the US who says that a free or inexpensive copy is not available for anything other than a rare book or an expensive art or reference book is not doing their job right.
The main problem with the system with respect to Wikipedia is that most libraries work very slowly, so it can take some weeks--and therefore cannot be used in a Wikipedia debate, which is typically closed in a few days (or hours).,
Returning to an issue weeks later when the book has arrived and when it has dropped off people's watchlists (if they keep them tidy) can have its advantages, though. Unless the article got deleted, of course.
Carcharoth
On Wed, Mar 4, 2009 at 1:07 PM, Carcharoth carcharothwp@googlemail.com wrote:
Returning to an issue weeks later when the book has arrived and when it has dropped off people's watchlists (if they keep them tidy) can have its advantages, though. Unless the article got deleted, of course.
Well if you've finally got the sources in the palm of your hand you have no reliance on the article's previous incarnation. On the other hand it's nicer to be able to measure how much you improved something.
—C.W.
The time frame for the recent discussion had already been set by the sockpuppeteer at two months. Usually I propose about six weeks.
-Durova
On Wed, Mar 4, 2009 at 11:01 AM, David Goodman dgoodmanny@gmail.com wrote:
I worked for many years running (among other things) an interlibrary loan system. Any librarian in at least the US who says that a free or inexpensive copy is not available for anything other than a rare book or an expensive art or reference book is not doing their job right.
The main problem with the system with respect to Wikipedia is that most libraries work very slowly, so it can take some weeks--and therefore cannot be used in a Wikipedia debate, which is typically closed in a few days (or hours).,
On Wed, Mar 4, 2009 at 1:42 PM, Durova nadezhda.durova@gmail.com wrote:
Good replies.
Usually in practice that generates one of two responses:
*Either the editor requests an interlibrary loan (or finds someone
willing
and able). *Or else the editor evades the suggestion and continues disputing on
other
points.
In practice, it's an effective way to distinguish who's serious about the project and who isn't. I suggested interlibrary loan at a talk page the other day and go an uncooperative response.
Lo and behold, there had previously been a conduct RFC and a positive checkuser result for disruption at that article. A new checkuser came in positive also. Today someone got blocked for a month.
-Durova
On Wed, Mar 4, 2009 at 10:25 AM, Thomas Dalton <thomas.dalton@gmail.com wrote:
2009/3/4 geni geniice@gmail.com:
2009/3/4 Thomas Dalton thomas.dalton@gmail.com:
2009/3/4 geni geniice@gmail.com:
Doesn't work so well these days. Enough libraries have been closed
and
stock sold off that you don't have to get that obscure before you
have
to turn to the rather expensive out of county loan system. For
example
my county does not have a copy of:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/What_Is_This_Thing_Called_Science%3F
Can we not assume the whole world is situated in the middle of North America, please?
I'm kinda British.
Most of the English speaking first world is in a reasonable shape with regard to libraries. Outside that I'm not sure.
Oh, sorry, where you referring to British counties (I'm not sure what the public library system is in Britain for this kind of thing - I'm a student so have access to university libraries and inter-library loans through that which aren't expensive at all - maybe even free)? I generally assume if someone doesn't say what country they're talking about then they mean the USA - it's usually a pretty safe assumption.
WikiEN-l mailing list WikiEN-l@lists.wikimedia.org To unsubscribe from this mailing list, visit: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikien-l
-- http://durova.blogspot.com/ _______________________________________________ WikiEN-l mailing list WikiEN-l@lists.wikimedia.org To unsubscribe from this mailing list, visit: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikien-l
-- David Goodman, Ph.D, M.L.S. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User_talk:DGG
WikiEN-l mailing list WikiEN-l@lists.wikimedia.org To unsubscribe from this mailing list, visit: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikien-l
On Wed, Mar 4, 2009 at 10:25 AM, Thomas Dalton thomas.dalton@gmail.com wrote:
2009/3/4 geni geniice@gmail.com:
2009/3/4 Thomas Dalton thomas.dalton@gmail.com:
2009/3/4 geni geniice@gmail.com:
Doesn't work so well these days. Enough libraries have been closed and stock sold off that you don't have to get that obscure before you have to turn to the rather expensive out of county loan system. For example my county does not have a copy of:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/What_Is_This_Thing_Called_Science%3F
Can we not assume the whole world is situated in the middle of North America, please?
I'm kinda British.
Most of the English speaking first world is in a reasonable shape with regard to libraries. Outside that I'm not sure.
Oh, sorry, where you referring to British counties (I'm not sure what the public library system is in Britain for this kind of thing - I'm a student so have access to university libraries and inter-library loans through that which aren't expensive at all - maybe even free)? I generally assume if someone doesn't say what country they're talking about then they mean the USA - it's usually a pretty safe assumption.
Interlibrary loans at your university (or public library) are not free at all. They are just free for *you*, because your university picks up the tab for you. The average cost of an item borrowed through ILL at a typical mid-size university is between $20-$30 per item. (google: "average cost interlibrary loan", find lots of studies to this effect). This, however, is part of the cost of doing research.
Re: print accessibility: a good rule of thumb about whether something is easy to get or not is whether the item being cited is widely held at many libraries or not (see: http://worldcat.org, though this isn't anything like complete outside North America). I favor printed books that are held by many places over obscure works that are only at one or two whenever possible. Of course, sometimes this isn't possible, and a decent bibliography on any topic may be one of the greatest services Wikipedia provides in a few years. We should strive to cite it all: print works, online works, anything we can get our hands on.
-- Phoebe, one of your resident grumpy librarians
2009/3/5 phoebe ayers phoebe.wiki@gmail.com:
and a decent bibliography on any topic may be one of the greatest services Wikipedia provides in a few years.
It's one of the greatest services we provide *now*. Even when the article prose has been turned into querulous grey mush, all but unreadable and uneditable between the text creaking tortured beneath a crippling weight of leechlike subclauses and the <ref> tags nailing the subclauses to its flesh, people LOVE the reference lists. They're perfect for further reading, or writing a non-sucky version of the article yourself.
- d.
On Thu, Mar 5, 2009 at 2:31 AM, phoebe ayers phoebe.wiki@gmail.com wrote:
Interlibrary loans at your university (or public library) are not free at all. They are just free for *you*, because your university picks up the tab for you. The average cost of an item borrowed through ILL at a typical mid-size university is between $20-$30 per item. (google: "average cost interlibrary loan", find lots of studies to this effect). This, however, is part of the cost of doing research.
That's interesting...mind telling my resident University of Zurich librarians that bit, should you ever meet them at a conference? I currently get charged (and yes, the figures are the same nevermind whether I use it as member of the public or as enrolled student or as faculty member)
7 Swiss francs for books from other libraries in the German-part-of-Switzerland university libraries network 10 Swiss francs for books from the rest of Switzerland 20 Swiss francs for books from Europe minus Great Britain 35 Swiss francs for books from Great Britain 45 Swiss francs for books from the United States "depending on how much it actually cost *us* " for books from all the other countries
Would love to hear some more experiences on this: Is it common in the US / UK for academic libraries not to charge at all for ILLs? Then I'm ever so slightly envious...
Michael
On Sun, Mar 8, 2009 at 9:17 PM, Michael Bimmler mbimmler@gmail.com wrote:
On Thu, Mar 5, 2009 at 2:31 AM, phoebe ayers phoebe.wiki@gmail.com wrote:
Interlibrary loans at your university (or public library) are not free at all. They are just free for *you*, because your university picks up the tab for you. The average cost of an item borrowed through ILL at a typical mid-size university is between $20-$30 per item. (google: "average cost interlibrary loan", find lots of studies to this effect). This, however, is part of the cost of doing research.
That's interesting...mind telling my resident University of Zurich librarians that bit, should you ever meet them at a conference? I currently get charged (and yes, the figures are the same nevermind whether I use it as member of the public or as enrolled student or as faculty member)
7 Swiss francs for books from other libraries in the German-part-of-Switzerland university libraries network 10 Swiss francs for books from the rest of Switzerland 20 Swiss francs for books from Europe minus Great Britain 35 Swiss francs for books from Great Britain 45 Swiss francs for books from the United States "depending on how much it actually cost *us* " for books from all the other countries
Would love to hear some more experiences on this: Is it common in the US / UK for academic libraries not to charge at all for ILLs? Then I'm ever so slightly envious...
In the unlikely event that my university library didn't have a book (it's a copyright library), the charge is £3 (c. 5 Swiss francs, according to Google). The request almost invariably goes to the British Library.
Next-day ordering can be arranged for £9.
Sam
On Sun, Mar 8, 2009 at 11:38 PM, Sam Korn smoddy@gmail.com wrote:
In the unlikely event that my university library didn't have a book (it's a copyright library), the charge is £3 (c. 5 Swiss francs, according to Google). The request almost invariably goes to the British Library.
Next-day ordering can be arranged for £9.
Heh, I was just looking up fees at my university-to-be-from-autumn-onwards (my enrolment in Zurich last year was somewhat a technical matter, as I was immediately granted "leave of absence" again to pursue two internships)...and inevitably the fees there are at £4 and £10 respectively. I guess light blue beats dark blue in terms of fees by one pound ;-)
Best, Michael
Ahem, the below is so off-topic that I intended to send it offlist, really. Me blushes somewhat and, with his list admin hat on, tries to steer the discussion on-topic again. M.
On Sun, Mar 8, 2009 at 11:48 PM, Michael Bimmler mbimmler@gmail.com wrote:
On Sun, Mar 8, 2009 at 11:38 PM, Sam Korn smoddy@gmail.com wrote:
In the unlikely event that my university library didn't have a book (it's a copyright library), the charge is £3 (c. 5 Swiss francs, according to Google). The request almost invariably goes to the British Library.
Next-day ordering can be arranged for £9.
Heh, I was just looking up fees at my university-to-be-from-autumn-onwards (my enrolment in Zurich last year was somewhat a technical matter, as I was immediately granted "leave of absence" again to pursue two internships)...and inevitably the fees there are at £4 and £10 respectively. I guess light blue beats dark blue in terms of fees by one pound ;-)
Best, Michael -- Michael Bimmler mbimmler@gmail.com
Durova wrote:
Two words: interlibrary loan.
-Durova
This is in the "Outer Limits" of Sam's complaint. For someone who can't get to his local library to find what is already there the notion of interlibrary loans is an unfathomable mystery.
Ec
On Wed, Mar 4, 2009 at 7:22 AM, Sam Blacketer
I've seen that in editing disputes - where one side insists that the other side's reference isn't actually verifiable because it's not online so they can't verify it. Feel like pointing out we did actually use to be able to check things out before the internet happened you know. However I suspect most of these are fairly tendentious, along the lines of people who tag articles as unreferenced because they don't have inline references but do have a list of books from which all the facts in the article were taken.
-- Sam Blacketer
2009/3/4 Durova nadezhda.durova@gmail.com:
Two words: interlibrary loan.
-Durova
That gives me an idea. Some users live in rural areas far away from large book repositories, with little capacity to check off-line resources, while other users live in metropolitan centres with dozens of vast libraries a bus ride away.
Is there a page on Wikipedia where one user (a rural user, let's presume), can ask for an offline reference to be checked ("can you check this page of this book for this statement/fact")? If not, might it be a useful service to offer?
I, for example, live in London and have easy access to a number of large university libraries and the British Library (if the resource is especially obscure). It would also be possible to scan in the relevant page of a PD/uncopyrighted book, as proof of the reference, for example.
That would be brilliant. Great idea!
Fwiw, I have a query like that for anyone who has access to the local records of Roubaix, France. Trying to find the birth and/or death dates for Jean Desbouvrie.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jean_Desbouvrie
Possible April Fool's FA here; small topic. The available sources provide limited information about his lifespan.
-Durova
On Wed, Mar 4, 2009 at 12:55 PM, Oldak Quill oldakquill@gmail.com wrote:
2009/3/4 Durova nadezhda.durova@gmail.com:
Two words: interlibrary loan.
-Durova
That gives me an idea. Some users live in rural areas far away from large book repositories, with little capacity to check off-line resources, while other users live in metropolitan centres with dozens of vast libraries a bus ride away.
Is there a page on Wikipedia where one user (a rural user, let's presume), can ask for an offline reference to be checked ("can you check this page of this book for this statement/fact")? If not, might it be a useful service to offer?
I, for example, live in London and have easy access to a number of large university libraries and the British Library (if the resource is especially obscure). It would also be possible to scan in the relevant page of a PD/uncopyrighted book, as proof of the reference, for example.
-- Oldak Quill (oldakquill@gmail.com)
WikiEN-l mailing list WikiEN-l@lists.wikimedia.org To unsubscribe from this mailing list, visit: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikien-l
Oldak Quill wrote:
2009/3/4 Durova nadezhda.durova@gmail.com:
Two words: interlibrary loan.
-Durova
That gives me an idea. Some users live in rural areas far away from large book repositories, with little capacity to check off-line resources, while other users live in metropolitan centres with dozens of vast libraries a bus ride away.
To my eternal regret, I watched my local news programme the other night, to find that a book warehouse in Bristol had closed down and rather than skip or burn its contents, the public had been invited to come along and help themselves. If I'd been aware of it, I would have been there, because it appears that about 250,000 books were available. By the time the TV crew got there, there was very little left. Shame. There should be a way of finding out about these things, and perhaps some sort of "give us your old books" drive would be worth trying.
2009/3/4 Phil Nash pn007a2145@blueyonder.co.uk:
There should be a way of finding out about these things, and perhaps some sort of "give us your old books" drive would be worth trying.
Neither the WMF nor chapters are really in a position to store large numbers of books and for the most part current library services do the job well enough.
Getting access to existing collections and permission to make copies of them (county archives will generaly photocopy stuff for you but they won't let you point a camera at the stuff) is a more significant issue at this point.
2009/3/4 geni geniice@gmail.com:
Getting access to existing collections and permission to make copies of them (county archives will generaly photocopy stuff for you but they won't let you point a camera at the stuff) is a more significant issue at this point.
http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/Sun-Glasses-Camera-with-2GB-Flash-Memory-+Micro-SD-Slo...
Now to work out how to make it a tax deduction!
- d.
2009/3/4 David Gerard dgerard@gmail.com:
2009/3/4 geni geniice@gmail.com:
Getting access to existing collections and permission to make copies of them (county archives will generaly photocopy stuff for you but they won't let you point a camera at the stuff) is a more significant issue at this point.
http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/Sun-Glasses-Camera-with-2GB-Flash-Memory-+Micro-SD-Slo...
Now to work out how to make it a tax deduction!
- d.
Sneaking in a camera would not be a problem if I felt like doing that but I have standards. What bugs me is the restriction is so irrational.
It's not a matter of protecting the documents. I was allowed to handle them without wearing gloves, they were fairly robust (19th century1:500 OS maps. large enough scale that would identify individual rooms in buildings) and in any case photographing even with flash (not that I would need to use a flash) would have done less damage than photocopying.
It's not a matter of disruption since modern camera can be pretty much silent where as the microfilm machines people were useing were rather noisy.
It may be a matter of control since there are conditions on what you can do with the photocopies and when a few years back I asked them about CC release I wasn't able to get a straight answer.
Annoying.
On Wed, Mar 4, 2009 at 5:44 PM, geni geniice@gmail.com wrote:
2009/3/4 David Gerard dgerard@gmail.com:
2009/3/4 geni geniice@gmail.com:
Getting access to existing collections and permission to make copies of them (county archives will generaly photocopy stuff for you but they won't let you point a camera at the stuff) is a more significant issue at this point.
http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/Sun-Glasses-Camera-with-2GB-Flash-Memory-+Micro-SD-Slo...
Now to work out how to make it a tax deduction!
- d.
Sneaking in a camera would not be a problem if I felt like doing that but I have standards. What bugs me is the restriction is so irrational.
It's not a matter of protecting the documents. I was allowed to handle them without wearing gloves, they were fairly robust (19th century1:500 OS maps. large enough scale that would identify individual rooms in buildings) and in any case photographing even with flash (not that I would need to use a flash) would have done less damage than photocopying.
It's not a matter of disruption since modern camera can be pretty much silent where as the microfilm machines people were useing were rather noisy.
It may be a matter of control since there are conditions on what you can do with the photocopies and when a few years back I asked them about CC release I wasn't able to get a straight answer.
Annoying.
I think a big part of why so many libraries do this is fear of copyright liability, if they permit patrons to copy materials that are copyrighted. With photocopies that they make or explicitly authorize, the copying can be okayed by their trained people to ensure that it's something where copying is allowed.
They probably wouldn't be liable anyway, and the rules they train people with often go well beyond what the law requires, but it's an approach that has been entrenched pretty deeply. Libraries and archives have a lot of practices that have not been updated to account for the realities of the post-Internet world and the growing level of copyright awareness and activism on the part of patrons.
-Sage (User:Ragesoss)
David Gerard wrote:
2009/3/4 geni geniice@gmail.com:
Getting access to existing collections and permission to make copies of them (county archives will generaly photocopy stuff for you but they won't let you point a camera at the stuff) is a more significant issue at this point.
http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/Sun-Glasses-Camera-with-2GB-Flash-Memory-+Micro-SD-Slo...
Now to work out how to make it a tax deduction!
I think that the North American standard is to have coin-operated photocopiers at strategic places. This leaves staff only needing to copy the most valuable pieces.
The glasses are interesting, but I note that they have a 60 degree field of view and a resolution of 320 x 240. I would conclude from that that in order to get a 3" by 2" piece of text at 100 d.p.i. one would need to keep one's face only two inches from the desired text. :-)
Ec
2009/3/5 Ray Saintonge saintonge@telus.net:
The glasses are interesting, but I note that they have a 60 degree field of view and a resolution of 320 x 240. I would conclude from that that in order to get a 3" by 2" piece of text at 100 d.p.i. one would need to keep one's face only two inches from the desired text. :-)
I've seen others adertised with 1.3MP cameras. No doubt up to the finest digital photographic standards 2002 could offer.
- d.
On Thu, Mar 5, 2009 at 12:39 AM, Ray Saintonge saintonge@telus.net wrote:
<snip>
The glasses are interesting, but I note that they have a 60 degree field of view and a resolution of 320 x 240. I would conclude from that that in order to get a 3" by 2" piece of text at 100 d.p.i. one would need to keep one's face only two inches from the desired text. :-)
"But Sir, if you need to look that closely to read the text, why don't you take your sunglasses off?"
<mumble about sensitive eyes and medical condition>
All you need now is the pen with the memory wipe flash thingy.
Yes, MIB II was on TV tonight.
Carcharoth
On Wed, Mar 4, 2009 at 7:56 PM, Carcharoth carcharothwp@googlemail.com wrote:
<mumble about sensitive eyes and medical condition>
Just remember "glaucoma" is the best excuse for everything, Carch.
On Sun, Mar 8, 2009 at 4:38 PM, Sam Korn smoddy@gmail.com wrote:
In the unlikely event that my university library didn't have a book (it's a copyright library), the charge is £3 (c. 5 Swiss francs, according to Google). The request almost invariably goes to the British Library.
Not being a student I didn't bother asking about this at the nearest university library. There is a small public library much closer but I think the non-fiction section would fit in the trunk plus back-seat of my car. Plenty of Danielle Steel however. :/
—C.W.
(cough) Looked up the price of tuition at a Stateside university lately? It's hardly free. Including interlibrary loans in the bargain is the least they could do in return.
On Mon, Mar 9, 2009 at 8:27 AM, Charlotte Webb charlottethewebb@gmail.comwrote:
On Wed, Mar 4, 2009 at 7:56 PM, Carcharoth carcharothwp@googlemail.com wrote:
<mumble about sensitive eyes and medical condition>
Just remember "glaucoma" is the best excuse for everything, Carch.
On Sun, Mar 8, 2009 at 4:38 PM, Sam Korn smoddy@gmail.com wrote:
In the unlikely event that my university library didn't have a book (it's a copyright library), the charge is £3 (c. 5 Swiss francs, according to Google). The request almost invariably goes to the British Library.
Not being a student I didn't bother asking about this at the nearest university library. There is a small public library much closer but I think the non-fiction section would fit in the trunk plus back-seat of my car. Plenty of Danielle Steel however. :/
—C.W.
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Phil Nash wrote:
Oldak Quill wrote:
2009/3/4 Durova:
Two words: interlibrary loan.
That gives me an idea. Some users live in rural areas far away from large book repositories, with little capacity to check off-line resources, while other users live in metropolitan centres with dozens of vast libraries a bus ride away.
To my eternal regret, I watched my local news programme the other night, to find that a book warehouse in Bristol had closed down and rather than skip or burn its contents, the public had been invited to come along and help themselves. If I'd been aware of it, I would have been there, because it appears that about 250,000 books were available. By the time the TV crew got there, there was very little left. Shame. There should be a way of finding out about these things, and perhaps some sort of "give us your old books" drive would be worth trying.
The simple fact that 250,000 books should go so quickly shows that an interest in the product is still there.
Ec
Ray Saintonge wrote:
Phil Nash wrote:
Oldak Quill wrote:
2009/3/4 Durova:
Two words: interlibrary loan.
That gives me an idea. Some users live in rural areas far away from large book repositories, with little capacity to check off-line resources, while other users live in metropolitan centres with dozens of vast libraries a bus ride away.
To my eternal regret, I watched my local news programme the other night, to find that a book warehouse in Bristol had closed down and rather than skip or burn its contents, the public had been invited to come along and help themselves. If I'd been aware of it, I would have been there, because it appears that about 250,000 books were available. By the time the TV crew got there, there was very little left. Shame. There should be a way of finding out about these things, and perhaps some sort of "give us your old books" drive would be worth trying.
The simple fact that 250,000 books should go so quickly shows that an interest in the product is still there.
Ec
That would be great, if we had any confidence or hope that such incidents would result in improved sourcing or even new articles; but we can't be that sure. I could easily have found even fifty books there to replace those I've lost over the years that even libraries don't have any more, and that could have fuelled my editing for the rest of my life. So, a couple of months, then.
On Wed, Mar 4, 2009 at 9:08 PM, Phil Nash pn007a2145@blueyonder.co.uk wrote:
Oldak Quill wrote:
2009/3/4 Durova nadezhda.durova@gmail.com:
Two words: interlibrary loan.
-Durova
That gives me an idea. Some users live in rural areas far away from large book repositories, with little capacity to check off-line resources, while other users live in metropolitan centres with dozens of vast libraries a bus ride away.
To my eternal regret, I watched my local news programme the other night, to find that a book warehouse in Bristol had closed down and rather than skip or burn its contents, the public had been invited to come along and help themselves. If I'd been aware of it, I would have been there, because it appears that about 250,000 books were available. By the time the TV crew got there, there was very little left. Shame. There should be a way of finding out about these things, and perhaps some sort of "give us your old books" drive would be worth trying.
I picked up a couple of big biographies while rummaging through some charity shops. They now sit on a bookshelf making me feel guilty that I haven't done anything with them. I got as far as checking one Wikipedia article and finding that it was heavily referenced to the book I had, which made some sort of sense, but as for actually comparing the refs and article content to the book itself, that taks defeated me. But it is a task that both needs doing and there needs to be a way to record that x number of people have checked any particular reference and agreed with it, regardless of whether it is offline or online.
Carcharoth
On Wed, Mar 4, 2009 at 7:48 PM, Carcharoth carcharothwp@googlemail.com wrote:
I got as far as checking one Wikipedia article and finding that it was heavily referenced to the book I had, which made some sort of sense, but as for actually comparing the refs and article content to the book itself, that taks defeated me.
This may be a big part of the problem. Ctrl-F doesn't work on paper. Indexes can only do so much. No blue words to grab your attention, etc.
But it is a task that both needs doing and there needs to be a way to record that x number of people have checked any particular reference and agreed with it, regardless of whether it is offline or online.
We could call it FlaggedRefs.
—C.W.
On Wed, Mar 4, 2009 at 2:55 PM, Oldak Quill oldakquill@gmail.com wrote:
That gives me an idea. Some users live in rural areas far away from large book repositories, with little capacity to check off-line resources, while other users live in metropolitan centres with dozens of vast libraries a bus ride away.
Is there a page on Wikipedia where one user (a rural user, let's presume), can ask for an offline reference to be checked ("can you check this page of this book for this statement/fact")? If not, might it be a useful service to offer?
I, for example, live in London and have easy access to a number of large university libraries and the British Library (if the resource is especially obscure). It would also be possible to scan in the relevant page of a PD/uncopyrighted book, as proof of the reference, for example.
One could host their own "fair use" version of wikisource. This would be at their own legal peril of course. Make it clear that you're not affiliated with wikipedia, in fact don't even use the word "wiki". How about "BookTube", is that taken, hmm...
Google Books has been incredibly useful for me but it does not take submissions or requests.
—C.W.
On Wed, Mar 4, 2009 at 12:55 PM, Oldak Quill oldakquill@gmail.com wrote:
2009/3/4 Durova nadezhda.durova@gmail.com:
Two words: interlibrary loan.
-Durova
That gives me an idea. Some users live in rural areas far away from large book repositories, with little capacity to check off-line resources, while other users live in metropolitan centres with dozens of vast libraries a bus ride away.
Is there a page on Wikipedia where one user (a rural user, let's presume), can ask for an offline reference to be checked ("can you check this page of this book for this statement/fact")? If not, might it be a useful service to offer?
I, for example, live in London and have easy access to a number of large university libraries and the British Library (if the resource is especially obscure). It would also be possible to scan in the relevant page of a PD/uncopyrighted book, as proof of the reference, for example.
Oldak et al, see: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:WikiProject_Resource_Exchange, which appears to still be going on. What you talk about could possibly be added into this service?
-- Phoebe
2009/3/4 David Gerard dgerard@gmail.com:
(I've been *really annoyed* lately when a fact in an article has a reference ... but it's been tagged {{fact}} because it doesn't have an *online* reference. Suggestion: searching for all articles with "</ref>{{fact" in them and sending 50,000 volts through the chair of anyone who tagged a reference on mere paper.
You may want to try reverting them in the first instance... If people edit war with you over it, then go through the appropriate procedures.
David Gerard wrote:
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/technology/7914828.stm
It's an article on how wonderful it is that political movements are better documented in their formative stages these days ... but all I could think was what a pain it can be researching anything that happened before 1995.
After the low-hanging fruit come those of us with books.
But it was the BBC that threw out all those early episodes of "Dr. Who."
It confuses me when access to British democracy depends on paying "only" $2.95 to an American supplier. It makes me wonder how many of us have grasped the enormity of our task.
Ec
2009/3/4 Ray Saintonge saintonge@telus.net:
It confuses me when access to British democracy depends on paying "only" $2.95 to an American supplier.
Could you explain that reference?
Thomas Dalton wrote:
2009/3/4 Ray Saintonge:
It confuses me when access to British democracy depends on paying "only" $2.95 to an American supplier.
Could you explain that reference?
The article was about a movement to improve democracy in the UK, but the most easily accessible article was from an American newspaper for which one would pay $2.95. That strikes me as odd.
Ec
David Gerard wrote:
(I've been *really annoyed* lately when a fact in an article has a reference ... but it's been tagged {{fact}} because it doesn't have an *online* reference. Suggestion: searching for all articles with "</ref>{{fact" in them and sending 50,000 volts through the chair of anyone who tagged a reference on mere paper.
- d.
One editor recently wrote on the WP:BLPN that he'd delete any negative allegation in a BLP that isn't verifiable with a free online reference, arguing that such a practice is the only way of keeping out libelous material. http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Wikipedia:Biographies_of_living_pe...