Cunc asked:
instead of speaking in generalities, we discuss specifics? What are the specific edits and statements that Fred has made that you have found objectionable? Links would be appreciated.
Huh? Well, maybe you were out of town or something. This has already been detailed in previous posts to this list, and is obvious from a glance at the edit histories in any case.
Start with: http://www.wikipedia.org/pipermail/wikien-l/2003-April/002903.html Then see the bland admission of guilt without the faintest attempt at an apology at: http://www.wikipedia.org/pipermail/wikien-l/2003-April/002905.html
Follow it up with choice little words of Wikilove like these: "Their activity is no different from those who think they can deny the holocaust." You'll find that one at: http://www.wikipedia.org/pipermail/wikien-l/2003-May/003068.html
For that long string of major changes over a period of several days, all dishonestly marked as minor, and despite repeated requests to Fred that he desist see: http://www.wikipedia.org/w/wiki.phtml?title=Communist_state&action=histo ry
I repeat, I'm not out to crucify Fred. I'm simply out to see fairness and honesty upheld. Fred is the last person on this list to be in a position to throw accusations at other contributors. If Fred is willing to reform, to stop directing vile (and demonstrably untrue) accusations at all and sundry, and to give up his dishonest massive change marked as minor habit, then that's fine with me. I'll have nothing more to say on the matter.
If he wants to slander decent contributors though, then we should measure *his* record by the exact same yardstick. That is fair: same rules for everyone. That's all I am asking.
Tony Wilson (Tannin)
On Wed, 2003-05-07 at 13:11, Tony Wilson wrote:
Cunc asked:
instead of speaking in generalities, we discuss specifics? What are the specific edits and statements that Fred has made that you have found objectionable? Links would be appreciated.
Huh? Well, maybe you were out of town or something. This has already been detailed in previous posts to this list, and is obvious from a glance at the edit histories in any case.
Start with: http://www.wikipedia.org/pipermail/wikien-l/2003-April/002903.html Then see the bland admission of guilt without the faintest attempt at an apology at: http://www.wikipedia.org/pipermail/wikien-l/2003-April/002905.html
Follow it up with choice little words of Wikilove like these: "Their activity is no different from those who think they can deny the holocaust." You'll find that one at: http://www.wikipedia.org/pipermail/wikien-l/2003-May/003068.html
For that long string of major changes over a period of several days, all dishonestly marked as minor, and despite repeated requests to Fred that he desist see: http://www.wikipedia.org/w/wiki.phtml?title=Communist_state&action=histo...
Hmm. I still don't see it. The mailing list posts just seem to be both you and Fred engaging in slightly heated rhetoric. Nothing exciting there.
Just pointing to the history of [[Communist state]] I see a lot of YELLING by Jtdirl and Jtdirl attacking Fred's edits as "rubbish", "vandalism", and "rant".
Looking at Fred's second edit, the first that Jtdirl described as "POV vandalism"
http://www.wikipedia.org/w/wiki.phtml?title=Communist_state&oldid=859844
I don't see anything that's absurd. Jtdirl deleted the following text, which seems pretty defensible at first glance and certainly not "vandalism".
Typically a communist state is characterized by grinding [[poverty]], a bloated [[bureaucracy]], diversion of resources into [[military]] assets, a general loss of [[morale]] by the general population, and [[political stability|instability]] marked by periodic [[rebellion]]s which are brutally repressed. A communist state is characterized by the sharp division of the population into two castes, party members and the rest of the population. A small group, the [[politbureau]], typically consisting of less than 10 people, sometimes only 1, within the party hold any real power or have access to accurate information. A large [[secret police]] apparatus closely monitors the population. [[Concentration camp]]s and other facilities are used to incarcerate those dissidents which are not liquidated.
There have been two major communist states, The [[Soviet Union]] and its satellites and the [[People's Republic of China]]. Minor states include [[Yugoslavia]], [[Cuba]], [[Viet Nam]] and [[North Korea]]. The pattern varies in each with those clinging most closely to communist ideals being most characteristically totalitarian, impoverished, militaristic, and static. Attempts to incorporate [[democracy|democratic]] principles as in the case of the Soviet Union under Gorbachev, [[socialism|socialist]] principles as in Yugoslavia,or [[capitalism|capitalistic]] techniques as in China result in some mitigation of the negative features of the communist state but sometimes result in dynamic situations which may undermine the control of the party over the state or even lead to its collapse.
The Cunctator wrote:
I don't see anything that's absurd. Jtdirl deleted the following text, which seems pretty defensible at first glance and certainly not "vandalism".
I agree. The text is highly problematic in places, and needs NPOV work in many ways, *however* it is certainly not "vandalism" or anything of the sort. It needs softening and formalizing.
Typically a communist state is characterized by grinding [[poverty]], a bloated [[bureaucracy]], diversion of resources into [[military]] assets, a general loss of [[morale]] by the general population, and [[political stability|instability]] marked by periodic [[rebellion]]s which are brutally repressed. A communist state is characterized by the sharp division of the population into two castes, party members and the rest of the population. A small group, the [[politbureau]], typically consisting of less than 10 people, sometimes only 1, within the party hold any real power or have access to accurate information. A large [[secret police]] apparatus closely monitors the population. [[Concentration camp]]s and other facilities are used to incarcerate those dissidents which are not liquidated.
There have been two major communist states, The [[Soviet Union]] and its satellites and the [[People's Republic of China]]. Minor states include [[Yugoslavia]], [[Cuba]], [[Viet Nam]] and [[North Korea]]. The pattern varies in each with those clinging most closely to communist ideals being most characteristically totalitarian, impoverished, militaristic, and static. Attempts to incorporate [[democracy|democratic]] principles as in the case of the Soviet Union under Gorbachev, [[socialism|socialist]] principles as in Yugoslavia,or [[capitalism|capitalistic]] techniques as in China result in some mitigation of the negative features of the communist state but sometimes result in dynamic situations which may undermine the control of the party over the state or even lead to its collapse.
WikiEN-l mailing list WikiEN-l@wikipedia.org http://www.wikipedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikien-l
The Cunctator wrote:
I don't see anything that's absurd. Jtdirl deleted the following text, which seems pretty defensible at first glance and certainly not "vandalism".
I too would consider the deletion to be perfectly defensible. Deleting such POV text is far from "vandalism".
Typically a communist state is characterized by grinding [[poverty]], a bloated [[bureaucracy]], diversion of resources into [[military]] assets, a general loss of [[morale]] by the general population, and [[political stability|instability]] marked by periodic [[rebellion]]s which are brutally repressed. A communist state is characterized by the sharp division of the population into two castes, party members and the rest of the population. A small group, the [[politbureau]], typically consisting of less than 10 people, sometimes only 1, within the party hold any real power or have access to accurate information. A large [[secret police]] apparatus closely monitors the population. [[Concentration camp]]s and other facilities are used to incarcerate those dissidents which are not liquidated.
There have been two major communist states, The [[Soviet Union]] and its satellites and the [[People's Republic of China]]. Minor states include [[Yugoslavia]], [[Cuba]], [[Viet Nam]] and [[North Korea]]. The pattern varies in each with those clinging most closely to communist ideals being most characteristically totalitarian, impoverished, militaristic, and static. Attempts to incorporate [[democracy|democratic]] principles as in the case of the Soviet Union under Gorbachev, [[socialism|socialist]] principles as in Yugoslavia,or [[capitalism|capitalistic]] techniques as in China result in some mitigation of the negative features of the communist state but sometimes result in dynamic situations which may undermine the control of the party over the state or even lead to its collapse.
The problem with this text is that it contains a wide range of unsubstantiated claims. Any one of them could take a long article to discuss all by itself. It appeals to the preconceptions of established propaganda. The writing style of the propagandists is often such as to make the distinction difficult between attacking unsubstantiated comment, and defending the system that is being attacked. I have no problem admitting that I am on the left of the political spectrum, but I at least like to believe that I can see the faults in the systems that I favour and the benefits of those I oppose..
Fred's first sentence alone contains five separate assertions. It does not say what a communist state is, but basks in the weaselly passive, "is characterized by". If I consider the United States in the light of those five criteria, I find that they can all be applied to varying extents. Am I to conclude from that that the United States is a communist state? If either the communist or non-communist state is to be characterized by "grinding poverty", are we to take that as meaning that this was the intent of either? Grinding poverty was well established in West Bengal long before the democratic election of Jyoti Basu's Communist party in 1977, and it hasn't prevented that party from being re-elected to power in every election since.
My point here is not about defending communism, but about opposing Fred's attempt to wilfully mislead readers.
Ec