Jens said:
But I can't understand why this http://www.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image%3A843-870_Europe.jpg is fair use. The map has been created for an encyclopedia or an history textbook. If this is fair use, is there any picture we may not use?
I reply --
This is actually interesting -- when DW (or Elliot) put this up many months ago, I asked for a reference. I claimed then that this map was likely not in fair use. My reasoning was as follows: When I was finishing my thesis in 2000, I was desperate for maps. I found this map, along with a couple others that this person put up, at the UW library. I didn't have time to write for permission, and checked the copyright with the librarians, who said I could only use it under fair use if I altered the image dramatically, because it was still under copyright. Unfortunately, I can't tell you the source -- I had a couple maps copied, traced the parts I needed (the coastlines and rivers) by hand, scanned them, and labeled them as necessary. Anyway, I think we shouldn't use any images unless we can definitively say where they're from -- from what the librarian at my present college says, one still has to credit image sources for fair use, or it isn't fair use.
Julie
--- Julie Kemp juleskemp@yahoo.com wrote:
Jens said:
But I can't understand why this
http://www.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image%3A843-870_Europe.jpg
is fair use. The map has been created for an encyclopedia or an history textbook. If this is fair use, is there any picture we may not use?
I reply --
This is actually interesting -- when DW (or Elliot) put this up many months ago, I asked for a reference. I claimed then that this map was likely not in fair use. My reasoning was as follows: When I was finishing my thesis in 2000, I was desperate for maps. I found this map, along with a couple others that this person put up, at the UW library. I didn't have time to write for permission, and checked the copyright with the librarians, who said I could only use it under fair use if I altered the image dramatically, because it was still under copyright. Unfortunately, I can't tell you the source -- I had a couple maps copied, traced the parts I needed (the coastlines and rivers) by hand, scanned them, and labeled them as necessary. Anyway, I think we shouldn't use any images unless we can definitively say where they're from -- from what the librarian at my present college says, one still has to credit image sources for fair use, or it isn't fair use.
Julie
Agreed. Wikipedia should have its own mapping system. Where I could put ecoregions too :-)
Which could be discussed at http://meta.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipediatlas
__________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? The New Yahoo! Search - Faster. Easier. Bingo. http://search.yahoo.com
--- Anthere anthere6@yahoo.com wrote:
--- Julie Kemp juleskemp@yahoo.com wrote:
Jens said:
But I can't understand why this
http://www.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image%3A843-870_Europe.jpg
is fair use. The map has been created for an encyclopedia or an history textbook. If this is fair use, is there any picture we may not use?
I reply --
This is actually interesting -- when DW (or
Elliot)
put this up many months ago, I asked for a reference. I claimed
then
that this map was likely not in fair use. My reasoning was as follows: When I was finishing my thesis in 2000, I was desperate for maps. I found this map, along with a couple others that this person
put
up, at the UW library. I didn't have time to write for permission, and checked the copyright with the librarians, who said I could
only
use it under fair use if I altered the image dramatically, because
it
was still under copyright. Unfortunately, I can't tell you the source -- I had a couple maps copied, traced the parts I needed (the coastlines and rivers) by hand, scanned them, and labeled them as necessary.
Anyway, I think we shouldn't use any images unless we can
definitively
say where they're from -- from what the librarian at my present college says, one still has to credit image sources for fair use, or it isn't fair use.
Julie
Agreed. Wikipedia should have its own mapping system. Where I could put ecoregions too :-)
Which could be discussed at http://meta.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipediatlas
Is anyone at Wikipedia a cartographer?
In responce to the first post (which I accidentally deleted), is a cleaned up picture (obviously with most of the pixels different, but similar colors) still a violation of copywright? I made one if it would help. --LittleDan
__________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? The New Yahoo! Search - Faster. Easier. Bingo. http://search.yahoo.com
Daniel Ehrenberg wrote:
Is anyone at Wikipedia a cartographer?
In responce to the first post (which I accidentally deleted), is a cleaned up picture (obviously with most of the pixels different, but similar colors) still a violation of copywright? I made one if it would help. --LittleDan
Sorry, but I tend to think it would still be a violation of copyright, just as much as taking a popular song and adding a drum beat, or using an acoustic guitar instead of electric guitar. In this case, you are changing the original, rather than using the original to create your own work.
On Mon, 26 May 2003 21:11:23 -0400, cprompt cprompt@tmbg.org gave utterance to the following:
Daniel Ehrenberg wrote:
Is anyone at Wikipedia a cartographer?
In responce to the first post (which I accidentally deleted), is a cleaned up picture (obviously with most of the pixels different, but similar colors) still a violation of copywright? I made one if it would help. --LittleDan
Sorry, but I tend to think it would still be a violation of copyright, just as much as taking a popular song and adding a drum beat, or using an acoustic guitar instead of electric guitar. In this case, you are changing the original, rather than using the original to create your own work.
I disagree. The information (in this case borders established by a 9th century treaty and the outline of Europe, plus some place names) is not copyrightable, only the presentation of it is. I quite often have to make maps showing the locality of some project. I might have traced the location of the streets from some other source, but it is impossible to tell from the finished work which if any of multiple sources (including public records) it may have been based upon.
Richard Grevers wrote:
On Mon, 26 May 2003 21:11:23 -0400, cprompt cprompt@tmbg.org gave utterance to the following:
Daniel Ehrenberg wrote:
Is anyone at Wikipedia a cartographer?
In responce to the first post (which I accidentally deleted), is a cleaned up picture (obviously with most of the pixels different, but similar colors) still a violation of copywright? I made one if it would help. --LittleDan
Sorry, but I tend to think it would still be a violation of copyright, just as much as taking a popular song and adding a drum beat, or using an acoustic guitar instead of electric guitar. In this case, you are changing the original, rather than using the original to create your own work.
I disagree. The information (in this case borders established by a 9th century treaty and the outline of Europe, plus some place names) is not copyrightable, only the presentation of it is. I quite often have to make maps showing the locality of some project. I might have traced the location of the streets from some other source, but it is impossible to tell from the finished work which if any of multiple sources (including public records) it may have been based upon.
But is a cleaned up picture with different colors really the same as tracing a map? I see tracing a map as akin to paraphrasing a document which should be okay. In any case, I'm not willing to fight on this issue, and will go with whatever the consensus is. :-)
Anthere wrote:
--- Julie Kemp juleskemp@yahoo.com wrote:
Jens said:
But I can't understand why this
http://www.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image%3A843-870_Europe.jpg
is fair use. The map has been created for an encyclopedia or an history textbook. If this is fair use, is there any picture we may not use?
I reply --
This is actually interesting -- when DW (or Elliot) put this up many months ago, I asked for a reference. I claimed then that this map was likely not in fair use. My reasoning was as follows: When I was finishing my thesis in 2000, I was desperate for maps. I found this map, along with a couple others that this person put up, at the UW library. I didn't have time to write for permission, and checked the copyright with the librarians, who said I could only use it under fair use if I altered the image dramatically, because it was still under copyright. Unfortunately, I can't tell you the source -- I had a couple maps copied, traced the parts I needed (the coastlines and rivers) by hand, scanned them, and labeled them as necessary. Anyway, I think we shouldn't use any images unless we can definitively say where they're from -- from what the librarian at my present college says, one still has to credit image sources for fair use, or it isn't fair use.
Julie
Agreed. Wikipedia should have its own mapping system. Where I could put ecoregions too :-)
Which could be discussed at http://meta.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipediatlas
Just, so people know, [[Bruce Perens]] has a complete street map of the United States on his ftp server (ftp://ftp.perens.com/pub/US-map/tiger2k), which is also available from the US Census site here (http://www.census.gov/geo/www/tiger/tiger2k/). AFAIR, it's not covered by copyright, having been created by the US Government, though I can look for the original announcement if required. So, no help for Europe, but could be useful for someone else.
Jimmy O'Regan wrote:
Just, so people know, [[Bruce Perens]] has a complete street map of the United States on his ftp server (ftp://ftp.perens.com/pub/US-map/tiger2k), which is also available from the US Census site here (http://www.census.gov/geo/www/tiger/tiger2k/). AFAIR, it's not covered by copyright, having been created by the US Government, though I can look for the original announcement if required. So, no help for Europe, but could be useful for someone else.
http://www.census.gov/cgi-bin/geo/tigerfaq?Q13 confirms that this is public domain data.
Jimmy O'Regan wrote:
Just, so people know, [[Bruce Perens]] has a complete street map of the United States on his ftp server (ftp://ftp.perens.com/pub/US-map/tiger2k), which is also available from the US Census site here (http://www.census.gov/geo/www/tiger/tiger2k/). AFAIR, it's not covered by copyright, having been created by the US Government, though I can look for the original announcement if required. So, no help for Europe, but could be useful for someone else.
Another offbeat possibility is FlightGear, who compose a bunch of PD map data layers into flight sim terrain. An overhead view with shading would make nice physical maps. All the raw map data one could want is in the public domain, the hard work is to assemble it into useful displays.
Stan
On Mon, 26 May 2003 11:56:27 -0700 (PDT), Anthere anthere6@yahoo.com gave utterance to the following:
Agreed. Wikipedia should have its own mapping system. Where I could put ecoregions too :-)
Which could be discussed at http://meta.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipediatlas
Actually, the map in question would be interesting, because it appears to be drawn using 20th Century outlines. Was not the shape of the Dutch coast quite different in the 9th Century?
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Je Lundo 26 Majo 2003 11:23, Julie Kemp skribis:
Anyway, I think we shouldn't use any images unless we can definitively say where they're from -- from what the librarian at my present college says, one still has to credit image sources for fair use, or it isn't fair use.
At last under threat of deletion, "Triton"/DW now admits that these two images: http://www.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:843-870_Europe.jpg http://www.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:ClovisDomain.jpg
come via: http://globegate.utm.edu/french/globegate_mirror/medhist.html specifically from: http://www.fordham.edu/halsall/maps/844-870map.jpg http://www.fordham.edu/halsall/maps/frankmapc6.jpg
After some searching, I was able to find them actually cited here: http://www.fordham.edu/halsall/sbookmap.html
Frankish Domains 511-561 (BW) Source: Gregory of Tours, History of the Franks, trans. Ernest Brehaut,(New York: Columbia University Press, 1916)
The Division of the Carolingian Empire: Verdun 843 and Mersen, 870 (Col) Adapted from Muir's Historical Atlas: (1911)
Their age would seem to put them squarely in the public domain. I'm additing citations...
"Triton"/DW seems to have no concept of reasonable behavior in general, though. No ability to compromise, no interest in citing sources as academic honesty demands of us, no willingness to accept that we might have higher standards of quality assurance than the minimum obligations the law requires. And waaaaay too much attachment to "his" "FACTS". As before, any modification earns his wrath. Frankly, I'm not impressed and would consider anything written by this character to be suspect.
- -- brion vibber (brion @ pobox.com)