Readers of this list who have not already seen or heard it may be interested in a talk I gave in July at the 2009 Wikiconference New York. The (somewhat pompous) title of the talk is "Wikipedia, the Internet, and the Future of Privacy."The video of that talk has now been posted and is available at: http://www.archive.org/details/nywikiconf_newyorkbrad_26july2009
Please note that my talk actually begins about 9 minutes into the video, following some discussion about logistics of the day, etc.
Later in the day, there also was a session where I answered some questions regarding my talk. The video for the Q&A is not yet available, but I will post the link to it when it is.
Newyorkbrad
237mb downloadable in Ogg format - is there not a streaming version somewhere?
On Mon, Sep 14, 2009 at 3:57 AM, Newyorkbrad (Wikipedia) newyorkbrad@gmail.com wrote:
Privacy."The video of that talk has now been posted and is available at: http://www.archive.org/details/nywikiconf_newyorkbrad_26july2009
Steve Bennett stevagewp@gmail.com wrote:
237mb downloadable in Ogg format - is there not a streaming version somewhere?
On Mon, Sep 14, 2009 at 3:57 AM, Newyorkbrad (Wikipedia) newyorkbrad@gmail.com wrote:
Privacy."The video of that talk has now been posted and is available at: http://www.archive.org/details/nywikiconf_newyorkbrad_26july2009
Saw it. Liked most of it.
It was inevitable that Wikipedia would become run by lawyers. So at least we have good ones.
-Stevertigo
stevertigo wrote:
Saw it. Liked most of it.
Diffuse, weaker on facts than theory?
So Wikipedia Review gets credited with the idea of "attack page", or something. Oddly, I think we knew all that anyway, or at least the rudiments of the debate, pre-BLP qua policy. But that could be one for the historians to sort out.
Charles
Charles Matthews charles.r.matthews@ntlworld.com wrote:
Diffuse, weaker on facts than theory?
Hm. People "strong on facts," are typically "weak on the theory," and vice versa (and so on).
Also, let's not forget, the point of BLP was to give the OFFICE a reason to continue existing. (That, and of course to respond responsibly to Siegenthaller's bad press and then ride the resulting good press into the stratosphere).
So Wikipedia Review gets credited with the idea of "attack page", or something. Oddly, I think we knew all that anyway, or at least the rudiments of the debate, pre-BLP qua policy. But that could be one for the historians to sort out.
I think Brad was just trying to give some due appreciation. It only seems strange to us, because we rarely do it. For example, the guy who finally got Arbcom underway never gets any credit at all. Anyway, Brad gets props if for nothing else than defying the convention to pretend that people without articles don't actually exist.
But anyway, back to the metaphysics. The apparent underlying theory is that "liability" will takes us to the promised land of "reliability." In other news, its been only five years since anyone has used the term "Wikilove."
-Stevertigo
On Thu, Sep 17, 2009 at 7:51 AM, stevertigo stvrtg@gmail.com wrote:
Also, let's not forget, the point of BLP was to give the OFFICE a reason to continue existing.
Wtf? This sounds like a bold, nasty claim, but perhaps I'm not understanding what you're implying. What are you trying to say, exactly?
Steve
Steve Bennett wrote:
On Thu, Sep 17, 2009 at 7:51 AM, stevertigo stvrtg@gmail.com wrote:
Also, let's not forget, the point of BLP was to give the OFFICE a reason to continue existing.
Wtf? This sounds like a bold, nasty claim, but perhaps I'm not understanding what you're implying. What are you trying to say, exactly?
This would be another swipe at Cary - don't feed.
Charles
Steve Bennett wrote:
Wtf? This sounds like a bold, nasty claim, but perhaps I'm not understanding what you're implying. What are you trying to say, exactly?
Charles Matthews charles.r.matthews@ntlworld.com wrote:
This would be another swipe at [Officer] - don't feed.
No, Charles, it was not a "swipe" at [Officer]. If it was a "swipe" at anything corporeal all, it was at the way BLP paranoia and the BLP-police-state often appears to bring about an institutional violation of our most core policies. As in the case of the speedy deletion of subspace drafts about notable and current subjects, that delete-voters themselves have not actually read (WP:MFD/SV/ONS), for example.
Note also that I find your comment "don't feed" to be a bit.. vexing. I insist that you refrain from making such accusations to me or anyone else for that matter - particularly when you've demonstrated your substantial capacity to intimately misconstrue both the subject and the object of my earlier comment.
This is not to single you out: I know that privatizing forces have to some degree institutionalized a policy of disrespect, and that you are in very good company.
-Stevertigo Excuse the off-topic remarks.
stevertigo wrote:
Note also that I find your comment "don't feed" to be a bit.. vexing. I insist that you refrain from making such accusations to me or anyone else for that matter - particularly when you've demonstrated your substantial capacity to intimately misconstrue both the subject and the object of my earlier comment.
This is not to single you out: I know that privatizing forces have to some degree institutionalized a policy of disrespect, and that you are in very good company.
-Stevertigo Excuse the off-topic remarks.
OK, here's what I think. You have shown you are prepared to troll on this list and others. You can no doubt refrain from that if you so choose. Dragging the thread away from a specific presentation on BLP to an area adjacent to a subject you have "discussed" to death is troll-like. If you wish to post a thread about the history of BLP as policy, go ahead. You will be less at risk of misconstruction if you start from your own baseline and statement of your intent.
Charles
Charles Matthews charles.r.matthews@ntlworld.com wrote:
OK, here's what I think.
Let's hear it.
You have shown you are prepared to troll on this list and others.
You are no doubt referring to unrelated issues with regard to certain officers. The issues I raised all dealt with obvious lapses in natural and expectable responsiveness. In no way was this "trolling." On the other hand, the current noted institutional lack of responsiveness in certain important contexts, is, in spite of its outward differences, quite similar in spirit to "trolling."
You can no doubt refrain from that if you so choose.
Given the notable errors in your premise, I understand this to be advice of only the special kind.
Dragging the thread away from a specific presentation on BLP to an area adjacent > to a subject you have "discussed" to death is troll-like.
It is certainly true that I have in recent months raised certain issues, and people can be unwittingly synergistic in their innacurate and pejorative characterizations. But if I am not presented with intelligent and on-point feedback, how then can I assume that such "discussion" has even been registered in the minds of the classes, much less scheduled to be acted upon? Hence, again your "troll-like" stigmanym is misplaced.
If you wish to post a thread about the history of BLP as policy, go ahead. You will be less at risk of misconstruction if you start from your own baseline and statement of your intent.
A valid point in its essence, albeit with the problem that my assumptions of good faith are somehow misplaced in certain threads and not in others.
-Stevertigo Again, excuse the off-topic comments
stevertigo wrote:
Charles Matthews charles.r.matthews@ntlworld.com wrote:
This would be another swipe at [Officer] - don't feed.
No, Charles, it was not a "swipe" at [Officer]. If it was a "swipe" at anything corporeal all, it was at the way BLP paranoia and the BLP-police-state often appears to bring about an institutional violation of our most core policies. As in the case of the speedy deletion of subspace drafts about notable and current subjects, that delete-voters themselves have not actually read (WP:MFD/SV/ONS), for example.
For the record, I didn't see it as a swipe. -- Cary
Cary Bass cary@wikimedia.org wrote:
No, Charles, it was not a "swipe" at [Officer]. If it was a "swipe" at anything corporeal all, it was at the way BLP paranoia and the BLP-police-state often appears to bring about an institutional violation of our most core policies. As in the case of the speedy deletion of subspace drafts about notable and current subjects, that delete-voters themselves have not actually read (WP:MFD/SV/ONS), for example.
For the record, I didn't see it as a swipe. -- Cary
Good. And for the record, I meant no hard feelings, Cary. I just wanted you to do your job. Even if privatizing forces suggested you just ignore me, do not. For to do so is to the detriment of your own standing, not theirs.
Well, maybe theirs too.
Regards, and pleased to finally talk to you. -Stevertigo
Actually a point I felt was missing from NYB's talk, which took "privacy" as general theme, was this: as we know from WP:NOT, Wikipedia is not concerned with "indiscriminate" information. This ought to provide some clear blue water between us and popular journalism, which actually uses "indiscimination" quite often as a technique (e.g. twenty things you didn't know about some reality TV star, or lists of peoplr whose birthday is today). The argument put forth under the "where are they now?" discussion should be considered under this heading, I believe. Someone who won an Olympic medal 30 years ago is now pumping gas? If we exclude that from the athlete's WP article, is it (a) censorship, (b) respect for privacy, or (c) application of WP:NOT under the general heading of including the salient facts on someone, not everything that has ever been printed?
Anyway, while the basic points that "privacy in the old sense of protection from intrusive publication may not exist in the Internet age" and "attack pages with high search engine prominence do work" may be valid, I had this comment to make about the concluding section of the talk, namely that we have our mission and it is not identical to tabloid journalism.
Charles
This is a very valid point in terms of another way of approaching the issue.
(In evaluating the speech for completeness, do bear in mind that I only had a certain amount of time and couldn't make every possible point, but I should have found room for this one.)
Newyorkbrad
On Thu, Sep 17, 2009 at 5:13 AM, Charles Matthews < charles.r.matthews@ntlworld.com> wrote:
Actually a point I felt was missing from NYB's talk, which took "privacy" as general theme, was this: as we know from WP:NOT, Wikipedia is not concerned with "indiscriminate" information. This ought to provide some clear blue water between us and popular journalism, which actually uses "indiscimination" quite often as a technique (e.g. twenty things you didn't know about some reality TV star, or lists of peoplr whose birthday is today). The argument put forth under the "where are they now?" discussion should be considered under this heading, I believe. Someone who won an Olympic medal 30 years ago is now pumping gas? If we exclude that from the athlete's WP article, is it (a) censorship, (b) respect for privacy, or (c) application of WP:NOT under the general heading of including the salient facts on someone, not everything that has ever been printed?
Anyway, while the basic points that "privacy in the old sense of protection from intrusive publication may not exist in the Internet age" and "attack pages with high search engine prominence do work" may be valid, I had this comment to make about the concluding section of the talk, namely that we have our mission and it is not identical to tabloid journalism.
Charles
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