"Armed Blowfish" wrote
On 20/09/2007, charles.r.matthews@ntlworld.com wrote:
"Armed Blowfish" wrote
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/WP:TROLL This lists six different 'types' of trolling, encouraging people to call people who do those things trolls.
You know, it doesn't do that. It implicitly does the exact opposite, and references [[Wikipedia:Do not insult the vandals]], which explicitly does the opposite.
It may not explicitly say 'You should call people trolls!' but it does provide material about what trolling supposedly is, which can be cited by those calling people trolls.
And how is WP supposed to handle its problem users, without that sort of discussion? Amongst the other Cassandras, there have (in the past) been those saying 'you realise WP will be over-run by trolls?' Didn't happen. I don't think your argument is that strong.
As for WP:DNITV, the people who don't follow that are far more visible than the ones who do.
Tell me, why are you not criticising them, then? Why are you assuming that those who are outside the well-known policy lines are representative of ''official'' Wikipedia? We can both agree that those people are doing it wrong.
An interesting one, 'Examples [of trolling] include continual nomination of articles for Wikipedia:Articles for deletion that are obviously encyclopedic'
Erm, many blatantly psychologically damaging articles in violation of BLP may be encyclopaedic. So would those who support this essay consider those who try to get defamatory or otherwise damaging biographies deleted from Wikipaedia trolls?
A biography should be _deleted_ if the subject fails the criteria for inclusion in WP. It should be _radically edited_ if the content fails BLP, or other criteria for content. These are two different things entirely. You seem to be conflating them.
And what of the wishes of the subject? And what are the criteria for inclusion outside the main space?
You know what the 'wishes of the subject' count for. If say Robert Mugabe put a call through to St. Petersburg, Florida, objecting to inclusion in Wikipedia, you know what the reaction would be. The 'criteria for inclusion'are for the article space, as you also know. Simply shifting crabwise when you are called on these things doesn't help your cause.
Another one: 'Some trolls are critical of the project, its policies, its users, its administration, or its goals. Often, this criticism comes in the form of accusations of cabals, ilks, or campaigns, that are typically invested in a particular POV, invested in maligning a specific user, and other similar claims.'
So would those who agree with this paragraph consider criticism directed at Wikipaedia as a whole, and not at individual users, to be trolls? I'm sure the more positive critics of Wikipaedia would be offended by that....
As I have said, criticism of actions on WP is OK. Accusations may not be OK, because they move from disagreeing with what is done, to implications that go well beyond mistakes. This need not make someone a 'troll': trolling is a kind of systematic provocation.
Individuals can be hurt more easily than whole organisations. Especially when talking in a forum where many of the people whose actions you are criticising are not able to respond, it may be better to criticise the whole organisation. If the culture of the organisation encouraged the individual's actions anyway, the individual may not be entirely responsible anyway. If someone flays you, do you criticise the whip, the hand, the whipper, or the person who ordered the whipping? Certainly not the whip - it has no control over its actions. Nor the hand, which was simply acting mechanically on the nerve impulses of the brain. The whipper is him or her self merely a hand to whomever ordered it. Sure, he or she could say no, but some one else would step in to take his or her place. The one who ordered it, though, that person is responsible.
Well, you appear to be saying that the culture encourages the things it explicitly discourages. This may seem a powerful sort of unmasking to you. It is also commonly known as "trying to have your cake and eat it".
[snip]
It isn't though. Your average Recent Changes patroller, constantly looking to revert damaging edits, may be hasty to call anything that looks bad vandalism. And don't almost all the standard warnings (uw2 and up) encourage this, by including the term vandalism?
Your way of putting it (what is uw2?) makes it clear that you know enough about WP, to know also that the text in templates is editable. Have you tried to get the text changed? This is a sofixit - if there is a problem in your view, there is also a route for debating and dealing with it, namely through the discussion page for any template you think is objectionable.
Clicking on 'edit this page' brings up the following in big bold letters:
'Block warning: You can read pages, but your account is blocked from editing and changing them.'
So much for that theory.
This is uw2: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Template:Uw-test2
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/WP:VAND#Types_of_vandalism This has a whole list of circumstances where you are encouraged to assume that someone is trying to deface Wikipaedia!
Well, in fairness, you could also reference the next section at WP:VAND where numerous things, including newbie tests, are described as not vandalism. That page also references the essay [[Wikipedia:Avoid the word "vandal"]]. So I fear you are shifting ground here. Where exactly is the incitement to call someone a vandal?
By saying that certain types of actions are or tend to be the result of a desire to hurt Wikipaedia, it discourages consideration that most people are more complex than that.
Oh look, an entire page dedicated to calling people vandals! http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Administrator_intervention_against_va...
Also see the Administrators' Noticeboards....
Really, what exactly is your point? That WP is not perfect, which is a perfectly reasonable point, or that it has no redeeming features, since everything put in place to allow amelioration and fair criticism and sensible policy enforcement in a transparent way somehow doesn't count?
<snip>
We have to deal with COI. Since I have worked on the policy, I have a fairly clear idea of what it consists of. There is nothing at all - nothing - at WP:COI which justifies linking having such a policy with stalking. You demean yourself my making such a connection.
- What policy says and what is done are not the same.
- There have been complaints by people who feel outed by enforcers of that policy.
- Someone connected to the outing of a Wikipaedia admin cited the need to prove a conflict of interest as a reason for outing.
As you know, outing people on the site is fundamentally against policy. Everyone should read the COI guideline, of course. It doesn't in any way suggest that investigative work is the right way ahead. In fact one reason it is a guideline is because implementation as a policy would bring just these dangers.
Perhaps you should consider other ways of keeping the articles neutral-ish.
There are plenty of ways of enforcing NPOV. The COI guideline is mainly _advice_ not to get into a false position over COI.
AGF is an interesting one.
'Unless there is strong evidence to the contrary, assume that people who work on the project are trying to help it, not hurt it.'
If good faith is defined as an attempt to help the encyclopaedia, is WP:AGF encouraging Wikipaedians to consider motivations which have absolutely nothing to do with Wikipaedia 'bad'? Or is this a Wikipaedia-centric world view? The world is not black and white, and not everything is about hurting Wikipaedia or helping it.
No, that is really a kind of smear on WP. It is a voluntary organization, and anyone can turn up to work on it. The baseline assumption in AGF is that volunteers are there to help, and are not (for example) propagandists or entryists of some sort.
Not anyone... for starters, not the Chinese.
'There to help' ... who or what?
Certainly, everyone wants to help someone or something, probably multiple someones or somethings. The questions is not whether, but who or what?
This is becoming a tiresome dialectical exchange. You are not actually refuting my description of AGF, you are dragging red herrings across it.
And in big bold letters: 'This guideline does not require that editors continue to assume good faith in the presence of evidence to the contrary.'
Erm, when else would the guideline be useful? So if someone does a few bad things, that person is suddenly a horrible horrible person who deserves to be defamed on top of Google? Well, that includes everyone except the children....
Or, you could join the School of Humanism, and accept that the world is not black and white, and people are a mixture of good and bad!
Actually it means all sorts of things you miss. But making a few mistakes under policy is not 'evidence' applicable to revoking the assumption of AGF.
The assumption that you are a human being, a mixture of good and bad, who feels and laughs and cries, is never revoked unless you fail the Turing test.
Tell you what, one of the indicators of a human at the far end of a Turing test would be to say "this is pointless - just being able to answer everything isn't a sign of having anything to say".
<snip>
Charles
----------------------------------------- Email sent from www.virginmedia.com/email Virus-checked using McAfee(R) Software and scanned for spam
On 20/09/2007, Charles Matthews charles.r.matthews@ntlworld.com wrote:
"Armed Blowfish" wrote
It may not explicitly say 'You should call people trolls!' but it does provide material about what trolling supposedly is, which can be cited by those calling people trolls.
And how is WP supposed to handle its problem users, without that sort of discussion?
Problem user != troll A problem user is someone who is hurting something, intentions irrelevant. A troll is someone who enjoys getting yelled at. A vandal is someone who wants to deface something.
You can certainly discuss what qualifies as a problem user without worrying about whether they have a secret masochistic desire to be yelled at or want to deface Wikipaedia.
Amongst the other Cassandras, there have (in the past) been those saying 'you realise WP will be over-run by trolls?' Didn't happen. I don't think your argument is that strong.
See the Google searches I sent earlier.
As for WP:DNITV, the people who don't follow that are far more visible than the ones who do.
Tell me, why are you not criticising them, then? Why are you assuming that those who are outside the well-known policy lines are representative of ''official'' Wikipedia? We can both agree that those people are doing it wrong.
Firstly, Because, like Fred, I do not believe in blaming individuals for societal problems, and society does encourage this sort of thing, whether codified or not.
Secondly, wrong or not, these people are probably not acting rationally. Consider fear and anger - biochemical, physiological and emotional responses given to us by evolution, because we need them to survive.
Fear triggers an increase in heart rate and respiration; blood flow is increased to the skeletal muscles and brain while blood flow is decreased to the stomach, kidneys, liver and skin. Adrenaline, endorphines... quite spectacular what the human body can accomplish.
'Whereas anger dyscontrol can result from long-term exposure to adverse life circumstances, acute trauma, psychosis, or biochemical imbalances, recurrent anger can be seen to be a product of agentic behavior. People often select high-conflict settings or continue to inhabit high-stress environments that set the stage for their anger experiences. Habitually hostile or aggressive people can create systemic conditions that fuel continued anger responding that is resistant to change. Alternatively, many clients are beset with exposure to toxic psychosocial environments, from which they seem to have little freedom of movement.' -- Timothy Cavell and Kenya Malcolm, 'Anger, Aggression, and Interventions for Interpersonal Violence', p. 15
Fear and anger are different in significant yet subtle ways, and often produce very similar reactions.
In conclusion, while fear and anger often lead people to do things which we may, if we are not feeling emotional ourselves, disapprove of, these people often are in great pain and should be helped. (I should also point out that compared that some of the things people I've known have done in anger - e.g. beating on other people, calling someone a troll is fairly tame and forgivable.) Additionally, society often triggers these responses by creating toxic psychosocial environments. When people become angry or fearful in reaction, they may further toxify the psychosocial environment by triggering others. So the question is, how do you get out of the loop?
Punishment furthers the cycle, adding psychosocial toxicity, and fails to acknowledge the pain of the participants. Punishment is often an act of revenge itself. Note that in physical fights, even if someone attacks you, continuing to punch that person when they are down is not legally considered self-defence in many jurisdictions, but attacking. Of course, everyone is so angry or afraid or whatever they may as well be stumbling drunk.
And what of the wishes of the subject? And what are the criteria for inclusion outside the main space?
You know what the 'wishes of the subject' count for. If say Robert Mugabe put a call through to St. Petersburg, Florida, objecting to inclusion in Wikipedia, you know what the reaction would be. The 'criteria for inclusion'are for the article space, as you also know. Simply shifting crabwise when you are called on these things doesn't help your cause.
In my book, the wishes of the subject count for a lot, unless the subject is so incredibly notable that deleting the article would leave a huge gaping hole in Wikipaedia. (Example: politicians)
In the book of much of the Wikipaedia, even a marginally notable subject may be considered an enemy just for asking for his or her biography to be removed, and furthermore, many people support keeping around banned user pages (which are essentially biographies) in order that the user's reputation may be punished.
In your book, you tell me.
[snip]
Well, you appear to be saying that the culture encourages the things it explicitly discourages. [snip]
Are not Recent Changes patrollers championed not only as hard workers preserving the encyclopaedia, but as glorious vandal fighters? Is not much time spent arguing over whether something is vandalism rather than explaining why it hurts the encyclopaedia and listening to why the person thought it would accomplish... something?
Even the supposedly obvious stuff could be the work of simple drunkards. Nothing rational about being drunk, so trying to attribute rational explanations (such as trying to deface Wikipaedia) really doesn't work.
Nothing rational about most of the things people do, actually. About 90% of a person's thinking is subconscious, and the 10% that is conscious spends most the its time trying to rationalise whatever that other 90% came up with.
[snip]
Really, what exactly is your point? That WP is not perfect, which is a perfectly reasonable point, or that it has no redeeming features, since everything put in place to allow amelioration and fair criticism and sensible policy enforcement in a transparent way somehow doesn't count?
My point is that one way to get the 'attack sites' to be nicer to Wikipaedians might be to take measures to not be an attack site.
Examples: * More liberal courtesy blankings, deletions and oversights. * Blank/delete first, ask questions later. * Discuss courtesy blankings/deletions/oversights privately, not publicly. * OTRS should be a badge. * Ban people kindly - allow banned users to vanish. * Don't reveal someone's general geographic location after a CU. * Tell Google to no-index everything but the actual encyclopaedia. (If Google juice is a problem, there are ways to tell Google to follow the links on a page but not index the page itself.) * etc.
<snip> > 1. What policy says and what is done are not the same. > 2. There have been complaints by people who feel outed > by enforcers of that policy [COI]. > 3. Someone connected to the outing of a Wikipaedia admin > cited the need to prove a conflict of interest as a reason > for outing.
As you know, outing people on the site is fundamentally against policy. Everyone should read the COI guideline, of course. It doesn't in any way suggest that investigative work is the right way ahead. In fact one reason it is a guideline is because implementation as a policy would bring just these dangers.
And also against my ethics. (The policy has exceptions, you know. Outing someone's general geographic region after a CU is apparently allowed. Requests for courtesy deletions/oversights of outing are often denied on the basis that it is already out, or that a person did something to deserve it, or that the community has a right to talk about it.... And why does the autoblocked text let you know someone else used the same IP as you?) Also, WP:COI already has brought those dangers. I believe the rationalisation the person used was that it was important to find a motivation for why the admin was 'changing history' (lying). I disagree, of course.
Perhaps you should consider other ways of keeping the articles neutral-ish.
There are plenty of ways of enforcing NPOV. The COI guideline is mainly _advice_ not to get into a false position over COI.
And when people are afraid that other people have secret conflicts of interest, what do you expect to happen?
[snip]
This is becoming a tiresome dialectical exchange. You are not actually refuting my description of AGF, you are dragging red herrings across it.
Do you believe in the existence of non-evil people who are not interested in helping Wikipaedia? If so, do you believe that these people might be interested in interacting with Wikipaedia in some way? (I'm hoping the answer to both is yes, but if so, you should agree with me that the policy as worded poses problems?)
[snip]
The assumption that you are a human being, a mixture of good and bad, who feels and laughs and cries, is never revoked unless you fail the Turing test.
Tell you what, one of the indicators of a human at the far end of a Turing test would be to say "this is pointless - just being able to answer everything isn't a sign of having anything to say".
<snip>
Charles
The thing that would probably be hardest for the smartest of bots to imitate is irrationality. If we don't understand how the subconscious mind works, how can a human invention imitate it?
Anyway, don't worry, you pass the Turing test with flying colours.