organisation of which a member assassinated Mahatma Gandhi
and
the organisation that killed Gandhi
Well, what do you know, this guy wasn't even a member of the organnization. He was an ex-member of both the Congress Party and RSS when he assassinated Gandhi. Why pick on one unless your aim is to make an indirect assertion?
I do not have adequate background in the matter to take a position about which is correct, but I can be sensitive to the wording change.
When the allegations were first made, the Govt investigated the organization and cleared it.
The gratuitous references to communists and Marxists do not help anyone to understand the complex and highly distressing events in Gujarat. The Communists of India are not a unified group. Communist has become a collective term for several splinter parties... so which of them is relevant here? When you mention "communist" in relation to Indian events to people who are totally unfamiliar with Indian politics, you will find yourself appealing to prejudices that have more to do with communism as it has developed in other countries.
The reference to communists is a straw man argument.
Unfortunately for you, Communists in India are one of the dominant political groups and control the English media and until recently controlled the academia (i.e, authoring school textbooks). This is a FACT. Just as you have Republican Party and Democratic Party in USA, we have many parties in India and Communists are very influential. They've also indulged in sustained propaganda.
As you can see from the discussions on the talk page as well as on the email list, it is I who has attempted to enter into a discussion and present facts and evidence. Did it ever strike you that the other side never did that?
Why do you think I brought it up here on the list for redressal? It is because I am confident that if neutral and objective people look at the issue, they will find that I am correct.
It is based on the presumption that others will see anything associated with communists as necessarily bad. If the reader can be made to associate the views of one Gujarati faction with the communists, then it will imply the conclusion that anything associated with that faction is also bad. This is a very dishonest way of debating.
Come on, I presented facts. I pointed out the lies. I gave links. And I made the point about Communists in India only to explain why the opposing view which I had proven to be factually inaccurate existed. It is a fact that Communists indulged in propaganda soon after the riots. Imagine calling the riots in Cincinnatti as a Govt sponsored "pogrom."
You term me dishonest when I am the one who has taken the trouble of presenting facts and looking at things in a logical manner.
Those of us outside of India who take the trouble to somewhat inform ourselves about India, will feel cheated if we need to plough through endless streams of biased propaganda from either side.
I don't take sides. I want facts presented. Not crude allegations.
Let statements be evaluated on the basis of what is said rather than who said it. The senseless violence in Gujarat needs to be explained in terms of Gujarati events, and not by reference to a newspaper from West Bengal or a politician from Kerala.
Right. Which is what I was asking. Go read it again and you will find that it is just a string of allegations. When it is convenient, there is no assertion that Hindus were the ones who were burnt, but just a few lines later, you find an assertion that they were Hindus and they provoked the crowd into dousing the train with petrol and burning it! All in 3 minutes.
Doesn't that strike you as something wrong?
Presentation of fiction and carrying out of propaganda is unacceptable. All sources used are Marxist in nature. Sadly, this is a FACT. You may consider it as a strawman argument, but if you make an allegation, surely the burden of proof is on YOU, not me. If you cannot prove an allegation, it shouldn't be on Wikipedia just because your political masters made the allegation.
-libertarian
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Why do you think I brought it up here on the list for redressal? It is because I am confident that if neutral and objective people look at the issue, they will find that I am correct.
Another finding was made.
It is based on the presumption that others will see anything associated with communists as necessarily bad. If the reader can be made to associate the views of one Gujarati faction with the communists, then it will imply the conclusion that anything associated with that faction is also bad. This is a very dishonest way of debating.
Come on, I presented facts. I pointed out the lies. I gave links. And I made the point about Communists in India only to explain why the opposing view which I had proven to be factually inaccurate existed. It is a fact that Communists indulged in propaganda soon after the riots. Imagine calling the riots in Cincinnatti as a Govt sponsored "pogrom."
No problem if that's what it was. Something very similar to a pogrom did happen in Tusla, Oklahoma in 1921. See http://www.manningmarable.net/works/apr03a.html We should have an article on this by the way.
Pogroms (Which really only happened in Russia and what is now Belarus and Ukraine) were both spontaneous and government tolerated mass murder which gave the majority population a way of letting of steam, and are really quite comparable to the events in Gujarat. Communists do tend to be quite opportunistic and are constantly looking for issues and are often less than honorable in their exploitation of them, that said, give em a good issue and they'll fit you out with a new butthole. Of course, they exploit the outrage generated by Hindu attacks on minorities just as they exploited racial discrimination in America, but what is really involved is that there is a wrong and that the energy generated by that wrong is being used by someone. It does not mean that the wrong is not real.
Fred
Fred Bauder wrote:
Why do you think I brought it up here on the list for redressal? It is because I am confident that if neutral and objective people look at the issue, they will find that I am correct.
Another finding was made.
It is based on the presumption that others will see anything associated with communists as necessarily bad. If the reader can be made to associate the views of one Gujarati faction with the communists, then it will imply the conclusion that anything associated with that faction is also bad. This is a very dishonest way of debating.
Come on, I presented facts. I pointed out the lies. I gave links. And I made the point about Communists in India only to explain why the opposing view which I had proven to be factually inaccurate existed. It is a fact that Communists indulged in propaganda soon after the riots. Imagine calling the riots in Cincinnatti as a Govt sponsored "pogrom."No problem if that's what it was. Something very similar to a pogrom did happen in Tusla, Oklahoma in 1921. See http://www.manningmarable.net/works/apr03a.html We should have an article on this by the way.
The article makes its point very well without mentioning communists. The takeover of Native-American lands in the 19th century also had pogrom like characteristics.
Pogroms (Which really only happened in Russia and what is now Belarus and Ukraine) were both spontaneous and government tolerated mass murder which gave the majority population a way of letting of steam, and are really quite comparable to the events in Gujarat.
An interesting point, but grafting a soviet concept onto Indian circumstances carries certain intellectual dangers.
Communists do tend to be quite opportunistic and are constantly looking for issues and are often less than honorable in their exploitation of them, that said, give em a good issue and they'll fit you out with a new butthole.
Dishonorable opportunism is a characteristic that is common to many political parties across the ideological spectrum
Of course, they exploit the outrage generated by Hindu attacks on minorities just as they exploited racial discrimination in America, but what is really involved is that there is a wrong and that the energy generated by that wrong is being used by someone. It does not mean that the wrong is not real.
This is the crux of the issue, no matter who is engaging in exploiting that issue for political gain. Referencing communists (or fascists for that matter) only serves to distract us from an understandng of the issue.
A very recent Statesman article refers to a very recent riot in Viramgam. http://www.thestatesman.net/page.arcview.php?clid=3&id=55336&usrsess... This was triggered by Muslim boys trying to retrieve a cricket ball that had inadvertently landed in a Hindu area. I doubt that the participants ever gave any serious thought to communism in deciding to riot.
Ec